Strut10 Posted November 1, 2006 Report Share Posted November 1, 2006 I had just commented to a guy the other day that I had a gut feeling there should be a Booner or two sneaking around the area I hunt. Well........last night, I was hunting my "big buck stand". With only an exception or two, every big (really big) buck I've ever seen while hunting was within 75 yards of this stand. About 4:30, a small buck ran a doe by me. I could, then, watch him chasing her 60 yards to my left on a little hillside. I heard a deep grunt coming in from the right. Then I saw him. Through the trees I could see a massive and high rack. What stood out were his G2's. I'm saying 14" G2's!!!!!!! I watched him run the doe back & forth a bit then disappear behind me on the right. About 20 minutes later a doe appears 50 yards over my right shoulder coming my way. Guess who's behind her!!!! As he stood looking at the doe beside me I could see his spread was well over body wide!! He stood back as she went by me at about 22 yards. Then he started my way. I got the release clicked on and got ready. This was him and this was it. Then it dawned on me that I needed to confirm that he had at least 4 points on one side to be legal. When the binos hit him I could have vomited. He was a 6-point!!!!! A stinking 6-point!!!!! The same stinking (MASSIVE) 6-point I saw in 2004 from the same stand......only bigger now. This guy's got bases the size of my wrists and easily 25" main beams....... 8" brows and 14" G2's. And that's it. This deer is sporting a 180" - 190" frame if he were a 10 point, like he should be at his age. When I saw him in 2004, I guessed him at 4 1/2 - 6 1/2 years old. So I've had this buck up on my hill for between 6 and 8 years..........kicking the dogcrap out of every other buck and spreading his garbage 6-point genetics. He's not legal to shoot......protected by Alt's "plan"...........and is being saved as breeding stock. Thanks for all your biological wisdom, Gary. I can't wait to see what that 18"-19" 3-pointer my daughter and I saw last year looks like this year. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest tunkhannockbowhunter Posted November 1, 2006 Report Share Posted November 1, 2006 Re: I hope Gary Alt is happy.............. man that sucks, on this side of pa its 3 on a side. 4 on a side doesnt make sense to me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stinger-Hunter Posted November 1, 2006 Report Share Posted November 1, 2006 Re: I hope Gary Alt is happy.............. I would have taken him and gotten an exception some how. That's just me, though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JamesVee Posted November 1, 2006 Report Share Posted November 1, 2006 Re: I hope Gary Alt is happy.............. Pictures are worth a thousand words. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom2008 Posted November 1, 2006 Report Share Posted November 1, 2006 Re: I hope Gary Alt is happy.............. I'm sure along the line the genetics will get better! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mule659 Posted November 1, 2006 Report Share Posted November 1, 2006 Re: I hope Gary Alt is happy.............. That is pretty stupid man. He needs to get shot Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shockwave Posted November 1, 2006 Report Share Posted November 1, 2006 Re: I hope Gary Alt is happy.............. west central Pa. what county ???? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
buckbuster11 Posted November 1, 2006 Report Share Posted November 1, 2006 Re: I hope Gary Alt is happy.............. Pretty stupid aint it? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Strut10 Posted November 1, 2006 Author Report Share Posted November 1, 2006 Re: I hope Gary Alt is happy.............. [ QUOTE ] west central Pa. what county ???? [/ QUOTE ] Indiana Co. [ QUOTE ] Pretty stupid aint it? [/ QUOTE ] Pretty stupid?????? Yeah. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ohiobucks Posted November 1, 2006 Report Share Posted November 1, 2006 Re: I hope Gary Alt is happy.............. Hate to hear that Strut, sounds like he would have been a keeper for sure. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Texan_Til_I_Die Posted November 1, 2006 Report Share Posted November 1, 2006 Re: I hope Gary Alt is happy.............. That's one of the drawbacks to AR's. You can and will ocassionally get those bucks with the undersirable genetics that don't meet the criteria. I think spread width is a better way to go than number of points, since most deer will reach a certain spread given enough time, but even that isn't perfect. All in all, I think AR's are beneficial to most hard hunted areas, but you've obviusly got a good example of one of the negatives. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RangerClay Posted November 1, 2006 Report Share Posted November 1, 2006 Re: I hope Gary Alt is happy.............. Thank you manditory antler restriction.... Maybe you will get lucky and he will get hit by a car Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
buckbuster11 Posted November 1, 2006 Report Share Posted November 1, 2006 Re: I hope Gary Alt is happy.............. Yo strutters, I was just thinking, antler restrictions don't apply for the youth hunters do they? Better get the kids on that big boy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest archer8030 Posted November 1, 2006 Report Share Posted November 1, 2006 Re: I hope Gary Alt is happy.............. Just goes to show you that AR's are well intentioned but counter prodcutive. They lend themselves to "high grading." which again, is counter productive. Plus, as in this case, they do little for promoting quality genetics. I've never been a supporter of them and never will be. I prefer bag limit management as opposed to antler management. It's worked for states like Kentucky. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wtnhunt Posted November 1, 2006 Report Share Posted November 1, 2006 Re: I hope Gary Alt is happy.............. Too bad he doesnt have a long enough sticker on one side to count him as having the required 4 points. Genetics are passed on from both the doe and the buck, so dont think you will see only 6 pointers running around. Hopefully in your situation the does being bred have better genetics and the monster 6 point has a short amount of life left and will die soon. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shockwave Posted November 1, 2006 Report Share Posted November 1, 2006 Re: I hope Gary Alt is happy.............. thats a shame according to this, your right on the border, between 3 and 4 to a side, your like me, If i step out my front door i have to shoot a 4, then if i step out my back door, i can shoot a 3.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hoyt03 Posted November 1, 2006 Report Share Posted November 1, 2006 Re: I hope Gary Alt is happy.............. get used to it. All these deer with crap racks are getting the best opportunities to make it through and spread these wonderful crappy genes. It's what man gets for trying to play with nature. Deer can be managed very well with these rules on say a large property or ranch, but to have a basic set of rules for every property in an entire state just wont cut it. When is man going to realize natures is at its best when we stay out of its way as much as possible. Since this AR I have seen alot more spikes and crap racks then ever. These deer usually dont amount to anything even if they do make it through a few years, kinda like in your case. Sorry for your luck. Looks like he will get to live out the rest of his life unshootable. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shockwave Posted November 1, 2006 Report Share Posted November 1, 2006 Re: I hope Gary Alt is happy.............. [ QUOTE ] get used to it. All these deer with crap racks are getting the best opportunities to make it through and spread these wonderful crappy genes. It's what man gets for trying to play with nature. Deer can be managed very well with these rules on say a large property or ranch, but to have a basic set of rules for every property in an entire state just wont cut it. When is man going to realize natures is at its best when we stay out of its way as much as possible. Since this AR I have seen alot more spikes and crap racks then ever. These deer usually dont amount to anything even if they do make it through a few years, kinda like in your case. Sorry for your luck. Looks like he will get to live out the rest of his life unshootable. [/ QUOTE ] It`s the opposite for me, I`m seeing bigger racks, and fewer deer.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Bob_D Posted November 1, 2006 Report Share Posted November 1, 2006 Re: I hope Gary Alt is happy.............. That's right....Get rid of AR and shoot them all when they are young. That way you don't have to worry what genes are being passed on. Better yet.....let's ban hunting all together and let nature takes it's course. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
drkillemquick Posted November 1, 2006 Report Share Posted November 1, 2006 Re: I hope Gary Alt is happy.............. Glad we don't have those type of restrictions. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IN_hunter Posted November 1, 2006 Report Share Posted November 1, 2006 Re: I hope Gary Alt is happy.............. [ QUOTE ] I prefer bag limit management as opposed to antler management. It's worked for states like Kentucky. [/ QUOTE ] I agree, in Indiana you used to be able to shoot 2 bucks a season. A few years ago they restricted it to only 1 and I have seen more big bucks since. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Strut10 Posted November 1, 2006 Author Report Share Posted November 1, 2006 Re: I hope Gary Alt is happy.............. [ QUOTE ] get used to it. All these deer with crap racks are getting the best opportunities to make it through and spread these wonderful crappy genes.......... Deer can be managed very well with these rules on say a large property or ranch, but to have a basic set of rules for every property in an entire state just wont cut it..........Since this AR I have seen alot more spikes and crap racks then ever. These deer usually dont amount to anything even if they do make it through a few years......... [/ QUOTE ] Exactly my take on the whole messed up thing. We've been seeing the quality of racks go downhill since the 2nd year of this mess. One of the most noticeable things is the decline in bucks with browtines. And, no kidding.........last fall my daughter & I saw an unbroken 3-pointer (Y on one side and a spike on the other) that was 18" or 19" wide. There's quality herd management hard at work for Pennsylvania. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest luckyman4 Posted November 1, 2006 Report Share Posted November 1, 2006 Re: I hope Gary Alt is happy.............. [ QUOTE ] get used to it. All these deer with crap racks are getting the best opportunities to make it through and spread these wonderful crappy genes. It's what man gets for trying to play with nature. Deer can be managed very well with these rules on say a large property or ranch, but to have a basic set of rules for every property in an entire state just wont cut it. When is man going to realize natures is at its best when we stay out of its way as much as possible. Since this AR I have seen alot more spikes and crap racks then ever. These deer usually dont amount to anything even if they do make it through a few years, kinda like in your case. Sorry for your luck. Looks like he will get to live out the rest of his life unshootable. [/ QUOTE ] For Hoyt03: Ever stop to think that maybe because there are fewer 1 1/2 year old deer being shot, that maybe that is why you are seeing more small racks?? Also, site your source when you say "these deer usually don't amount to anything." I've never heard anyone claim that only 1 1/2 year old 8-pointers "amount to anything." Big deer have to start small sometime, right?? How exactly do you propose that we "stay out of nature's way as much as possible" and still continue to hunt? At some point we also have to realize that we are man, and as such gifted with abilities that other predators don't have. We don't just harvest the sick, weak, and infirm. . . if we did, I would have shot a spotted fawn I saw two weekends ago. We are able to harvest perfectly healthy animals, in fact most of us prefer to harvest the biggest, healthiest animals if possible. So. are you proposing a regulation that requires hunters to take only tiny fawns, cripples, and very old deer?? For the most part, that's how it works in nature, so how else could we "stay out of nature's way?" I notice that in your avatar pic you are holding a nice Musky or Northern Pike. I'm willing to bet that the body of water you caught that on has a minimum size limit for them. Was imposing that minimum size limit "getting in nature's way?" Also, do you think your chances of catching a trophy like that would be less if there wasn't a minimum size limit? The idea of AR is the same as a minimum size limit for fish. . . to allow young animals to grow to maturity before they can legally be harvested. The only problem is that where nearly every fish in a given age class in a given waterbody grows to nearly the same size in a given number of years, deer antlers can vary greatly from individual to individual based on genetics and from year to year based on nutrition. However, how else is a state regulatory body supposed to try to improve the age structure and buck-to-doe ratio of its herd when called to do so by its hunting population?? As hunters, we cannot practice catch-and-release, so we have to have a quantifiable way of determining if a deer is mature - MOST of the time, more antler points mean an older deer. So, MOST of the time, antler restrictions help meet the goal of letting young deer survive, so you can see more spike horns and "crap racks," and eventually more legal bucks (averaging 8-points) and truly trophy deer. For others: All that being said, personnally I am against Antler Restriction regulations. The buck Strut10 saw is a perfect example of a mature buck that certainly should be harvested; By being under regulations, Strut10 is faced with the dilema of either breaking the law, or passing on the EXACT deer he should harvest - that makes no sense to me. Granted, this buck is an enigma and no regulatory body should make decisons based on the few bucks that max out at six points when most mature bucks are at least 8-points. Consider, however, what happens when people in Wastern PA see 1 1/2 year old 8-pointers; these are the EXACT deer that you don't want to harvest if you want to improve the age structure and they have great genetics as far as trophy potential goes too. . . but the book says they are legal. Again, I don't understand, but again a 1 1/2 year old 8-point is usually an enigma as well. The problem I have is with antler restrictions being RULES. As far as I know, and I could be mistaken, most states or areas that have antler restrictions have the laws in place because a majority of the hunters asked for them. That makes me think that many, if not all, of those that asked for them were already practicing antler restrictions without the LAW saying they had to. So now a big 6 like Strut10 saw or any big 8 with a couple of broken tines can't be harvested. Also, people like Hoyt03 get frustrated with hunting and maybe they quit, maybe even talk to some others and convince them to do the same - that's not good for any of us. Other hunters that consider any deer a trophy also get frustrated by feeling like they have the values of "trophy hunters" forced on them, again that does not benefit the hunting community. If I am right to assume that a majority of hunters in an area practice antler restrictions before they are made the law, does the benefit of having the law outweigh the drawbacks mentioned above?? Personally, I don't think so. If you are in favor of regulated antler restrictions in an area that doesn't have them yet, are you practicing them now?? If so, why do we need the regulations?? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shockwave Posted November 1, 2006 Report Share Posted November 1, 2006 Re: I hope Gary Alt is happy.............. I love the antler restriction. In other words it gives those deer with the genetics to become a monster a chance to grow. Now if they would get rid of the 2 week doe season we would start getting our deer population back up to where it was a few years ago... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest SRA Posted November 1, 2006 Report Share Posted November 1, 2006 Re: I hope Gary Alt is happy.............. well...that sucks..... although i do like the way PA is trying to grow bigger deer...instead of the "point rule" they need to have classes on aging bucks..... all 1 1/2 yr. old bucks need to be let go (preferably 2 1/2 as well) its very easy to determine a 1.5 from a 2.5 yr. old with a little practice...... the buck you are speaking of definately needs to be shot..... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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