iron buck Posted November 1, 2006 Report Share Posted November 1, 2006 Re: I hope Gary Alt is happy.............. I like the point restrictions. I have seen bigger & bigger bucks where I hunt because of it. No bully 6 points.................but I can't think of a better way to get JR hunters into the sport than by letting them cull the mature slaker bucks, just the way the rules allow now. I'd have no problem if they got rid of teh restrictions, but if they did, I'd like to see seperate buck/doe seasons again. But this time, have doe season first. That way teh bucks would be protected simply from going on gurad from teh shooting over the first season. And we would have hold over bucks of all genetic groups because of it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Strut10 Posted November 1, 2006 Author Report Share Posted November 1, 2006 Re: I hope Gary Alt is happy.............. [ QUOTE ] Ever stop to think that maybe because there are fewer 1 1/2 year old deer being shot, that maybe that is why you are seeing more small racks?? [/ QUOTE ] Small racks on 1 1/2 yr. class deer are one thing. Small racks (or big, crappy racks) on older deer are yet, quite another thing. [ QUOTE ] I've never heard anyone claim that only 1 1/2 year old 8-pointers "amount to anything." Big deer have to start small sometime, right?? [/ QUOTE ] No. But the 1 1/2 yr old 8-point will amount to "something" quicker than the 1 1/2 yr old spike. Only problem is.....the young 8-point gets whacked under PA law his first year. The spike lives to grow another day. [ QUOTE ] I notice that in your avatar pic you are holding a nice Musky or Northern Pike. I'm willing to bet that the body of water you caught that on has a minimum size limit for them. Was imposing that minimum size limit "getting in nature's way?" [/ QUOTE ] Apples & oranges. Size limits on fish are generally to preserve females to attain breeding age. It takes many types of fish several years to reach breeding age. Whitetails can breed at 6 mos. for females and 18 months for males. [ QUOTE ] The buck Strut10 saw is a perfect example of a mature buck that certainly should be harvested; if I had been in that stand, I would have had to sneak him out of the woods, and went to another state to purchase a tag so I could take him to the taxidermist's. [/ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] Consider, however, what happens when people in Wastern PA see 1 1/2 year old 8-pointers; these are the EXACT deer that you don't want to harvest if you want to improve the age structure and they have great genetics as far as trophy potential goes too. . . but the book says they are legal. [/ QUOTE ] Yep. And they get there genetics culled before they can spread 'em around. [ QUOTE ] a 1 1/2 year old 8-point is usually an enigma as well. [/ QUOTE ] They are rapidly becoming so. But they did not used to be. Not here. Year old 7's and 8's were not at all uncommon 10 years ago. [ QUOTE ] Other hunters that consider any deer a trophy also get frustrated by feeling like they have the values of "trophy hunters" forced on them, again that does not benefit the hunting community. [/ QUOTE ] Exactly what happened to my uncle. He never killed too many bucks in his lifetime.......... a city guy that enjoyed the heck out of the first 2 or 3 days of season at deer camp. The last year he was able to hunt (he was 80 years old) he had to pass on the nicest buck he had ever seen in the woods because it was not legal. Hope Gary's proud of that, too. My bottom line is this: There will be no better management practices anywhere than where big racks = big $$. I'm talking about the big ranches. These are the places where trophy deer are saved to be harvested at premium prices while inferior deer are taken for pennies on the dollar. If the true goal of the Alt plan was to improve the health of the herd, these spike bucks and other small racked deer would be the ones to be culled. The year old 8-points would be left as breeding stock. A year old 8-pointer takes way less food and does way less damge to his surrounding habitat on the way to making a trophy rack. The year old spike spends more years eating the crops & forests to attain trophy size......if he ever becomes a trophy at all. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest HaDeRonDa Posted November 2, 2006 Report Share Posted November 2, 2006 Re: I hope Gary Alt is happy.............. Just because he was sporting an odd rack does not mean that he has poor genetics. Probable but not an absolute. Doesn't it take two genetic codes to produce a buck with great antlers. He would be only half of the equation. A doe can pass on "good genetics", her dad's antler growing ablility. We also know that one buck does not breed every doe. If shooting was that big of an issue, what was the fine again for shooting a buck that does not quality? How long has Alt's plan been in existance? How come you didn't shoot him before? Or even any of your neighbors for that fact? Was he a spike or three point back then too? Alt's plan is a sound plan. In modern practices spikes are not culled anymore unless an "old timer" that is stuck in his ways is running the ranch/deer farm and is just ignorant of things other things than what he sees. There are many stressors, than influence antler size of a deer during it's first year. An article was written in Deer and Deer Hunting about a year ago. They do cite their research references. If your philospphy was true 90% of the bucks in the Adirondacks should be SHOT! NO? Talk about decimate the herd!!! LMBO I'm sure Charles Alsheimer would be appauled to read such as this on here! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shockwave Posted November 2, 2006 Report Share Posted November 2, 2006 Re: I hope Gary Alt is happy.............. Heres an example: over 22 years of hunting Pennsylvania and West Virginia, I`ve killed 26 bucks, my biggest being 12 point with a 20" spread, the rest have been small 4`s 6`s and 8`s, I`m gonna say the majority of the smaller bucks were about a year and a half old bucks. Lets say i passed up shots on the 4`s and 6`s before the restrictions, and the guy up the ridge from me shoots the ones i let walk. They cant grow up unless everyone passes up the smaller bucks and let`s them grow... Thats why you need the four point to a side restriction, and you cant have deer if you slaughter the does...The guys i hunt with are finally seeing what i have been saying over the last 5 years about buying 3 or 4 doe tags a year. You cant shoot 10 or 15 does a year and expect to see as many deer as you used to... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Strut10 Posted November 2, 2006 Author Report Share Posted November 2, 2006 Re: I hope Gary Alt is happy.............. [ QUOTE ] How long has Alt's plan been in existance? [/ QUOTE ] Too long. It took effect in the fall of 2002. [ QUOTE ] Alt's plan is a sound plan......... An article was written in Deer and Deer Hunting about a year ago. They do cite their research references........I'm sure Charles Alsheimer would be appauled to read such as this on here! [/ QUOTE ] I'm not a biologist and I have no scientific study to cite. All I am is a guy who's been in the woods non-stop since the early 70's. I feel I am qualified enough to recognize a trend when I see it. Big, low-quality racks.........racks without browtines..........more spikes than I have ever seen by a factor of 4 or 5. and I'm hearing the same observations from other qualified observers. Since the beginning of October, I have seen about 30 different bucks. Of those 30.......nine were legal (four points on one side). Of those nine legal bucks, two were 1 1/2 yr. deer. Other than the monster 6-point from the original post, I have seen numerous 2 1/2 yr. old deer that were 6-pointers or less......including a trio of 4-points that are all outside the ears. In all, I have seen a grand total of 2 bucks that were over 16 inches wide and had eight points. This is not the population profile we were lead to belive we'd be seeing in just a couple years after the plan took effect. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest luckyman4 Posted November 2, 2006 Report Share Posted November 2, 2006 Re: I hope Gary Alt is happy.............. [ QUOTE ] The buck Strut10 saw is a perfect example of a mature buck that certainly should be harvested; if I had been in that stand, I would have had to sneak him out of the woods, and went to another state to purchase a tag so I could take him to the taxidermist's. [/ QUOTE ] Let me make it clear that in no way do I think that this is what Strut10 should have done. I was only trying to say that if I saw a buck like he described, with a huge body and antlers that were body wide, I can't imagine taking the time to look through binoculars to check for number of tines, especially AFTER being clipped on. . . its autopilot from that point on for me. If we had a law saying that I had to be certain, I guess I would feel differently. I congratulate Strut10 for taking the time to double-check. Let me also say that if any PA hunter is faced with a dead monster 6-point that its not a good idea to sneak him out and tag him illegally. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Texan_Til_I_Die Posted November 2, 2006 Report Share Posted November 2, 2006 Re: I hope Gary Alt is happy.............. In the portion of Texas where AR's have been implemented, we're doing it on a minimum spread width basis, and it seems to be working much better than the minimum number of points method. Here's what our game department has to say about it... [ QUOTE ] Many of the southeastern states have antler-point restrictions, where they protect the bottom end of the herd, and make the better quality yearlings vulnerable to harvest. For example, one state has a rule that protects all bucks that don't have at least 3 points on one antler. Therefore, the 6-point and 8-point yearlings are harvested, and the bucks with less antler potential (e.g., spikes) are protected. Another state has a 4-point rule, which protects all bucks with less than 4 points. These and other southeastern states are taking a hard look at their data, and questioning whether they should be continuing with such a harvest strategy. Most biologists agree that improving the age structure of a buck herd is a legitimate goal; however, many southeastern biologists simply don't think that protecting only the poor-quality yearlings has been the best approach. We (TPWD) agree. [/ QUOTE ] And about minimum spread width AR's... [ QUOTE ] Some people interpret this as a strategy that will select for branched-antlered deer with less than a 13" spread. Well, it will - until those deer reach the age at which their spread exceeds 13". In other words, this strategy will select for better quality (i.e., branched antlered) young bucks, and will allow many of them to mature before they are available for harvest. It will eliminate the risk of high-grading, which is a likely outcome when many hunters choose to use their only buck tag on a 6-point or 8-point yearling instead of using it on a spike. Our constituents are correct when they say there are some "narrow-rack" older bucks out there. They are also right when they say a portion of them will be protected under this strategy, which is not desirable. We don't claim that this strategy is flawless. We must be mindful of the long-term effects. This strategy will allow hunters to "turn-over" the population. Based on 31 years of solid data from research that was designed to answer these questions, those older "narrow-rack" deer likely were spikes as yearlings. If hunters take advantage of the extra "spike only" tag, they will reduce the incidence of those older "management bucks" that slip through the cracks. By the way, the incidence of mature bucks that would not be legal under this strategy is much lower than what one may expect. In most of the areas where we're considering such, less than 5% of the mature bucks would not be legal based on these criteria. But in those same areas, only 5% of the harvest consists of mature bucks!!! They simply aren't living that long. Having carried the "high-grading" discussion this far, we must be very clear with one important point...This antler-restriction regulation is NOT a trophy-buck management strategy. Will it result in better quality deer? Possibly. It will result in more mature age-class bucks and age is one of the 3 main factors contributing to antler development. While this is not a trophy-buck management strategy, most hunters and landowners probably would agree that it would be irresponsible of TPWD to propose a regulation that would have an adverse effect on antler quality. Protecting the bottom end of the herd (i.e., spikes and 3-pointers) would do just that. Therefore, we're considering a much more proactive approach to improve the age structure of the buck herd, while not compromising the quality of those bucks that reach maturity. [/ QUOTE ] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shockwave Posted November 2, 2006 Report Share Posted November 2, 2006 Re: I hope Gary Alt is happy.............. [ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] The buck Strut10 saw is a perfect example of a mature buck that certainly should be harvested; if I had been in that stand, I would have had to sneak him out of the woods, and went to another state to purchase a tag so I could take him to the taxidermist's. [/ QUOTE ] Let me make it clear that in no way do I think that this is what Strut10 should have done. I was only trying to say that if I saw a buck like he described, with a huge body and antlers that were body wide, I can't imagine taking the time to look through binoculars to check for number of tines, especially AFTER being clipped on. . . its autopilot from that point on for me. If we had a law saying that I had to be certain, I guess I would feel differently. I congratulate Strut10 for taking the time to double-check. Let me also say that if any PA hunter is faced with a dead monster 6-point that its not a good idea to sneak him out and tag him illegally. [/ QUOTE ] I`ll guarantee more than one whitetail has been snuck out of the woods without a tag on it.. Something else to ponder, think how many are laying in the woods rotting because " someone swore it was an 8 " Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
buckbuster11 Posted November 2, 2006 Report Share Posted November 2, 2006 Re: I hope Gary Alt is happy.............. [ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] The buck Strut10 saw is a perfect example of a mature buck that certainly should be harvested; if I had been in that stand, I would have had to sneak him out of the woods, and went to another state to purchase a tag so I could take him to the taxidermist's. [/ QUOTE ] Let me make it clear that in no way do I think that this is what Strut10 should have done. I was only trying to say that if I saw a buck like he described, with a huge body and antlers that were body wide, I can't imagine taking the time to look through binoculars to check for number of tines, especially AFTER being clipped on. . . its autopilot from that point on for me. If we had a law saying that I had to be certain, I guess I would feel differently. I congratulate Strut10 for taking the time to double-check. Let me also say that if any PA hunter is faced with a dead monster 6-point that its not a good idea to sneak him out and tag him illegally. [/ QUOTE ] I`ll guarantee more than one whitetail has been snuck out of the woods without a tag on it.. Something else to ponder, think how many are laying in the woods rotting because " someone swore it was an 8 " [/ QUOTE ] Oh man, that right there is whole other set of problems. I know TONS of stories of guys shooting 6 points they thought were 8 points or something else, and either not tagging them and leaving them rot or writing down false information on their tag ( such as marking down it was shot in a different county where there is only a 3 point to a side rule). Alot of these stories are from people I know and/or I have personally seen the deer. I can only imagine whats going on around the rest of the state. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Zemmer18 Posted November 2, 2006 Report Share Posted November 2, 2006 Re: I hope Gary Alt is happy.............. Well NY has started with this AR plan in a few Deer Managment Units and I'm sure it will spread to the rest of the state soon. I hunt with a few friends that manage their own properties and it seems to have worked for them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest luckyman4 Posted November 2, 2006 Report Share Posted November 2, 2006 Re: I hope Gary Alt is happy.............. [ QUOTE ] Well NY has started with this AR plan in a few Deer Managment Units and I'm sure it will spread to the rest of the state soon. I hunt with a few friends that manage their own properties and it seems to have worked for them. [/ QUOTE ] EXACTLY, they have done it on their own properties and it has worked for them, WITHOUT a law necessary. Its spreading because it works, and antler points and/or antler spread are great rules of thumb, but they don't always work. There are big 6's that can be harvested and basket-racked 8s that can be passed when you do it yourself. Once a law is passed, the "neighbor that shoots anything" has to wait for the basket-racked 8 instead of shooting the first spike. They are both 1 1/2 year old deer, but which scenario leaves you with better genetics?? Do whatever you want to let the deer grow on your property, keep putting big bucks on the wall, and tell everyone how you went 2 or 3 years without shooting a buck because eventually people like me will get it through our thick heads what we have to do to put our own deer on the wall - without laws. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
buckee Posted November 2, 2006 Report Share Posted November 2, 2006 Re: I hope Gary Alt is happy.............. After reading this, I think a 3 point rule makes a whole lot more sense, than a 4 point rule. We don't have any antler restrictions here, but I wish we did, only because we have too many genetic 2x2 blacktails. If we had an antlers restriction of 2 points or better, and save the smaller young bucks, it might just start changing things in our favour (genetically speaking) It's tough watching a big ol' boy like that, and not being able to take him out. He's a trophy buck, and a genetic misfit, all at the same time. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doc Posted November 2, 2006 Report Share Posted November 2, 2006 Re: I hope Gary Alt is happy.............. Some thoughts on antler spread restrictions: My perfect set-up is a stand perpendicular to the path of the deer that affords a good broadside shot. I can't imagine how I would ever judge whether the antlers are outside the ears unless the deer is ridiculously huge or he looks straight at me. I am a ground stand hunter. I do not want the deer to look straight at me. I would also like to mention that I have seen many large racked deer that had great tine height and mass, but very narrow antler spreads. Is that set of genetics something we want to protect? This sounds like a formula for setting up hunters for mistakes or mis-judgements. By the way, this idea of the deer never directly facing the hunter is not just my own personal observations. I have also noted that on TV the deer seldom pose in that fashion either. Other than out west in open country, or wide open woods where you can see the deer coming for great distances and where the deer can be seen winding its way toward you, most of the bucks pictured are moving sideways to the hunter. Further, if you hunt super tight brush areas like I do, you will see the deer and make the shot in a very short span of time because that is all he is visible for. I personally do not want to be forced into breaking the law or making a misjudgement simply because of some amateurishly concocted restriction. Doc Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bowhntr Posted November 2, 2006 Report Share Posted November 2, 2006 Re: I hope Gary Alt is happy.............. This is the very reason that I stand strong against AR's. True they do serve to help the herd in the SHORT TERM. However, just like the original thread listed they only serve to protect inferior genetics and thus decrease true potential in the long term. Many western states that originally started managing through AR's are now dropping the AR and managing different ways. In my opinion the best possible way to protect bucks is to limit the number of buck that can be taken to one. That will make everyone think before they pull the trigger on that 18 month old basket rack. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mule659 Posted November 2, 2006 Report Share Posted November 2, 2006 Re: I hope Gary Alt is happy.............. I just dont see how people think having AR is going to help the number of quality deer. In order to have good deer you must remove the inferior deer and let the healthy ones mature. I just dont see where killing the young 8 point that could grow to be a monster makes any sense and letting the mature 6 or 7 points with jacked up antlers live because they dont meet the restrictions. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Illinois1958 Posted November 3, 2006 Report Share Posted November 3, 2006 Re: I hope Gary Alt is happy.............. Please excuse my ignorance but i dont understand the genetic argument. These are the same deer that have always been there. The same line of genetics. Deer arent being shipped in to breed with with the local deer. In my local herd there are spikes and there are monster non-typicals, all from the same genetic line. So, please explain the "crappy" genetics scenario to me. Thanks. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BAMABUCKS Posted November 3, 2006 Report Share Posted November 3, 2006 Re: I hope Gary Alt is happy.............. [ QUOTE ] ... In my opinion the best possible way to protect bucks is to limit the number of buck that can be taken to one. That will make everyone think before they pull the trigger on that 18 month old basket rack. [/ QUOTE ] Amen. Now there is how you manage your herd & balance the age structure. You put a limit on the number of bucks one can harvest. The "killers" will still be able to shoot the first thing that walks out and the "trophey hunter" will be able to wait on Mr. Big. Now I do use both of those terms losley because who am I to tell people how to hunt or what to shoot. I just believe this is the only true way to manage & keep everyone happy. By limiting the amount of bucks killed you have no choice but to increase the age class of your deer (bucks). That being done, there is also no choice but to harvest more does. If the number of bucks harvested goes down, then the number of does harvested must go up in order to keep the population in check. Now there has been alot said in this thread about shooting does & not seeing deer like we used to. But, as available lands give way to parking lots & shopping malls there is less to eat...there fore there has to be less deer. In order for bucks to produce racks to their potential they have to have proper nutrition from birth on up. If the land can not handle the deer population then all deer suffer. So if we want bigger, healthier deer; we must have fewer of them or supplement thier nutrition, and everyone knows population control is done through harvesting of does. All of you are talking about genetics. How many of you are biologist & have labs in your basement. Don't get me wrong, neither do I, that is why we can not honestly say this deer in question is geneticaly inferior to any other deer. Nor can we say that every spike is inferior & every 1 1/2 year old 8 point is superior (geneticaly speaking). What we can say is that one of them got a better head start in life (early birth, good nutrition, etc.). The only way we will know what either will become is to allow them both to grow up. There was a great article about this in NAW mag. by Dr. James Kroll. I have done alot of rambling here, but my point is...Let's control what we can control...age & nutrition...and leave the genetics question to the scientist. As far as AR...they are a bogus attempt for the state agencies to wave their hands & say look at us, we are doing something. If they wanted to do something they would put more wardens on the street with better pay and let them enforce a tagging systems that limits the number of bucks harvested & quit whinning about not having the funding to do so. If you crack down on the law breakers & make them pay till it hurts you could fund any thing you wanted. Just my 2 cents. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
buckbuster11 Posted November 3, 2006 Report Share Posted November 3, 2006 Re: I hope Gary Alt is happy.............. Just for the record...you can only take 1 buck per year in PA. And it's been that way for a very long time. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest wolbear Posted November 3, 2006 Report Share Posted November 3, 2006 Re: I hope Gary Alt is happy.............. I'm new here, but not to hunting and this is my take on the subject. I agree to a degree with the antler restrictions, however, the segregation of particular WMUs is crazy. If the GC wanted a decent plan to try let's do this, Three points one side state wide, however, each hunter now works under an "Earn a buck" program. This keeps the herd balanced and still allows for harvesting of older bucks. Just my thoughts, but I think they have some merit! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest HaDeRonDa Posted November 3, 2006 Report Share Posted November 3, 2006 Re: I hope Gary Alt is happy.............. Oh, add in the jackers just looking for antlers and it does complicate tagging a legal buck. More reason to get the local youth involved. Have them shoot the inferior bucks LMBO Can't complain unless you have used all avenues, within the law, to get what you want. Got many inferior bucks? Take out an ad in the paper for a youth hunt. I'm sure you will get takers. I know it's new to NY but how come we haven't here had these sort of complaints? Too new yet? Or is it because it's not statewide? Or is it because it wasn't "forced" down their throats on a statewide basis. If you are a meat hunter in PA and you have a few bucks to spend, it's only a $25 fine, plus of course you must surrender the antlers but you get to keep that buck with self imposed inferior gentics. You must sign a statement that you shot a buck with less than the required amount of tines, big deal!!, but you will still get to keep the meat. Isn't that cool for all of you hating AR? Enough of the jokes. The fine is not prohibitive to most families. Isn't it about the harvest and the herd and not just "I"? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
buckbuster11 Posted November 3, 2006 Report Share Posted November 3, 2006 Re: I hope Gary Alt is happy.............. That $25 fine is only if the Game Commission determines that there was an 100% honest mistake made by shooting the deer. The few people I know that have turned in illegal bucks they have mistakingly shot have been fined $500. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hoyt03 Posted November 3, 2006 Report Share Posted November 3, 2006 Re: I hope Gary Alt is happy.............. [ QUOTE ] That $25 fine is only if the Game Commission determines that there was an 100% honest mistake made by shooting the deer. The few people I know that have turned in illegal bucks they have mistakingly shot have been fined $500. [/ QUOTE ] Yep, I remember the first year this came into affect and you had the 25$ mistaken kill fine. If you reported a mistaken kill your story was basically set in front of a judge and his mood/feeling of the day decided whether you got a hefty fine or not. I remember alot of people getting nailed with big fines that first year, and I bet alot of them honestly made mistakes and got ripped for it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Strut10 Posted November 3, 2006 Author Report Share Posted November 3, 2006 Re: I hope Gary Alt is happy.............. Surely our PGC would not tell us one thing then do another. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest HaDeRonDa Posted November 3, 2006 Report Share Posted November 3, 2006 Re: I hope Gary Alt is happy.............. From what I understand there is supposed to be no judge involved. You call a GW, sign a statement, they cut the antlers off and issue you a mail in ticket for $25. Sounds like there might have been more to the horror stories than, an OPPPS! I shot hte wrong deer. I could be wrong though. Strut, you are right the GC has pulled a few fast ones on the residents of PA. I think that happens in every state though. We pay our license fees and still get the wool pulled over our eyes occasionally. Go figure!?? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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