Inferior genetics?

[Guest Illinois1958]

Please excuse my ignorance but i dont understand the inferior genetic argument. These are the same deer that have always been there. The same line of genetics.

Deer arent being shipped in to breed with with the local deer. In my local herd there are spikes and there are monster non-typicals, all from the same genetic line.

So, please explain the inferior genetics scenario to me. Thanks.

[VTbowman]

Re: Inferior genetics?

I think from time to time genetics can screw up and mutate a bit.

Plus not all deer in a given area are from the same line of genetics. They do roam around and young bucks get pushed out of areas completely by older bucks so they have to go somewhere.

I have had several deer shot off my property over the last 8 years that have had a spike on the right side and normal antler on the left.

At first I just thought it was that the deer had an injury which can effect antler growth. 7 deer later I am seeing a pattern. LOL

I believe I have a line of genetics that are not so good in my area.

Not ALL the bucks are from the same line I am sure. Since I also see sevel that have normal and even groth on both sides, but I try to eliminate this 1 sided spike line as best I can.

In managed areas I think it boils down to what the owners want to see out of the deer herd they have.

Some deer will get only so big, and even though they are respectable 8 pointers or 6 pointers after so many year they detremine that its all they will ever be so they try to cull these so the bigger antlered deer breed their doe.

JMO

[johnf]

Re: Inferior genetics?

Well, it's sort of like me if I were a deer. The men in my family are all pretty big. My dad is 6'2" and the shortest in his family. My brother is 6' and most of my cousins are 6'3"+ and average about 6'4". I'm 5'6" so the likelyhood of my kids being small is fairly high. It's the same thing with deer. You may have a relatively good bloodline haveing nice body, rack or or both. When a buck has a good body size and small rack that buck should be taken out of the gene pool if you want to grow bigger racks in your area. He is obviously getting plenty neutrician, so his genetics for antler grown are poor.

In the area that I hunt there is a very larged racked 10pt that I've been seeing. I'm guessing by his body size that he is a 3 1/2 year old buck. In the same area there is a very large buck that I would guess would out weigh the 10pt by 20-30lbs and think he's probibly 4 or 5, but he has a split on one side and only a spike on the other side. He has great mass and is about 16" wide, but only has 3 scorable points. If he breads, his offspring are more likely to have inferior antler growth.

BTW in Arkansas the big bruiser 3pt is not a legal buck to kill.

[Guest Illinois1958]

Re: Inferior genetics?

Thanks for the reply. Here is where i am confused.

You have the same genes as your parents. Therefore, you could have children that are over six feet tall. The junk rack buck you desribe could sire fawns that could have great racks.

In horse racing some of the greatest sires were never great racers, but their offspring were. My point being that they carried the genes, it just didnt show up in them. There was an article years ago, i believe in North American Whitetail that showed a 1 1/2 year old spike that matured into a monster non-typical.

He was a captive deer and bred many does with strong antler genetics. Some of the offspring became monsters and some were below average. Seems like a crap shoot to me.

[johnf]

Re: Inferior genetics?

It may be a crap shoot, but if you want a big dog your not going to bread Great dane female to a chahuahua. The offspring might be big, but chances are, they won't. The deer you described was a mature monster non-typical. The one I descibed was a big bodied, mature dink rack.

BTW The Dr. said that based on his current growth rate my son will probibly be 6'2"-6'4". So that backs up your argument too.

[Guest HaDeRonDa]

Re: Inferior genetics?

[ QUOTE ]

You have the same genes as your parents. The junk rack buck you desribe could sire fawns that could have great racks.

My point being that they carried the genes, it just didnt show up in them. There was an article years ago, i believe in North American Whitetail that showed a 1 1/2 year old spike that matured into a monster non-typical.

He was a captive deer and bred many does with strong antler genetics. Some of the offspring became monsters and some were below average. Seems like a crap shoot to me.

[/ QUOTE ]

Exactly! Both parents create a great deer not just one. The one that most of us humans think is important is not. The doe he breeds also plays a role.

Knowing what deer IS doing the breeding surely is important. One philosophy of culling bucks with small racks is that you limit what young deer do the breeding. It's great in some areas but the problem with this old philosophy is that nature can throw a twist in antler growth by simply making a dry summer followed by a hard winter followed by a dry summer followed by the current area that is already low in browse nutrition and you have a recipe for yearlings (< 18 months old) for having very small racks. By culling these deer you could actually ruin your gene pool if the "large breeding bucks" are all harvested within that time frame. Look at Vermont!

The south has a much better genetic pool than the north. Hence the larger racked bucks to the south and the odd boys up north.

Harvesting all the big boys never happens on a paid, managed area. The problem with hunting public land is getting the public to not shoot a Booner. Who is going to pass?

The DOES!! Following matriarchial lines is easier on a managed area as well. If you can get a permit for it you can tag your deer. If you can do this knowing who has sired who will help to create Booners in time as well along with selective harvesting of both bucks and does. Not just going in a wacking 5" spikes and below.

There is lots that goes into the mix when raising big deer. Man and nature and the geographical location of those deer all play a role.

[Leo]

Re: Inferior genetics?

As stated by others already. 50% of a buck genetic potential comes from an antlerless moma.

You also need nutrition and age to produce mature bucks.

Sure there are those exceptional 1st and 2nd year 8 and 10ptrs, but if you have antler point restrictions guess what gets shot?

The best way to up the average age and size of the bucks on your property is not to shoot any bucks off it for a year or two, implement supplemental feeding during the hard months in the off season and take as many does as the law allows. Then strive to only shoot bucks that are 3 1/2yrs or older. That's an extremely unpopular way to go, I know but it produces results better than anything.

[buckee]

Re: Inferior genetics?

[ QUOTE ]

There was an article years ago, i believe in North American Whitetail that showed a 1 1/2 year old spike that matured into a monster non-typical.

[/ QUOTE ]

Exactly why if your going to try to change the genetics a bit in your area, you only target mature animals to weed out. You can't tell what genetics a deer is going to have until they are at least 2-1/2 yrs old. That's one of the reasons so many hunters pass on younger bucks. ..They would rather let them grow up to see what they are going to be first. No sense shooting the next Pope and Young, while he's still a spike, and never know if he was or wasn't.

[Guest HaDeRonDa]

Re: Inferior genetics?

[ QUOTE ]

No sense shooting the next Pope and Young, while he's still a spike, and never know if he was or wasn't.

[/ QUOTE ]

How much better can it be said?

[dogdoc]

Re: Inferior genetics?

trust me--you'll never change the genetics in a free roaming herd. Sure you can shoot the spike or the buck with no tines but you never know if those genes came from mom or pop. Target mature animals and let the young ones (bucks) walk--JMO.

todd