No Christ In Christmas?

[Jeramie]

I heard, on the news this morning, that a Christian Group donated Biblical-Christian talking figures to toys for tots in time for Christmas this year.

Toys for Tots turned them down because they were of religous content..... Apparently no one remembers what Christmas is all about. The story has to be out there on the web somewhere. Its been all over the national news, local news, and radio this morning.

*Edited, there was a "My Bad" in the title, thanks Joe*

[Ravin R10 man]

Re: No Christ In Christmas?

Bunch of HUMBUGS!!!! BAAA!!

[jbeck]

Re: No Christ In Christmas?

Heck, we've asked God to get out of our schools, out of our government, and out of our lives in this country. Is it any wonder we have the problems we do? I'm glad I know him, I'd sure hate to be on the other team when this game ends.

[horst]

Re: No Christ Im Christmas?

Jeremie, they turned them down because they give toys to children of all nationalities and religions and they have little way of knowing what kids going to recieve which present exactly.Since not all families are religous in nature and theres many different faiths in this country I can almost gaurantee they would have recieved much worse press than this if theyd sent a couple thousand religous dolls to the wrong families.Its a no win situation for them either way.

[3whunt]

Re: No Christ Im Christmas?

one nation, under god....

[horst]

Re: No Christ Im Christmas?

Amendment I - Freedom of Religion, Press, Expression. Ratified 12/15/1791. Note

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances

[muggs]

Re: No Christ In Christmas?

I don't agree with this sort of nonsense. But just thought I'd point this out.

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Heck, we've asked God to get out of our schools, out of our government

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Jbeck, seperation of Church and State has been around since the formation of this country, it was one of the first things written into the Constitution. Religion has no place in politics...even though Bush never got that memo.

[Guest Andrea]

Re: No Christ In Christmas?

[ QUOTE ]

Heck, we've asked God to get out of our schools, out of our government, and out of our lives in this country. Is it any wonder we have the problems we do? I'm glad I know Him, I'd sure hate to be on the other team when this game ends.

[/ QUOTE ]

MY SENTIMENTS EXACTLY!!!!!!!!!

[Exturkinator]

Re: No Christ Im Christmas?

[ QUOTE ]

Amendment I - Freedom of Religion, Press, Expression. Ratified 12/15/1791. Note

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances

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plagairism...

[BowtechTurkeyHunter]

Re: No Christ Im Christmas?

It was on Fox News ... its just the direction the government goes ... frustrating for sure.

Steve

[Jeramie]

Re: No Christ Im Christmas?

[ QUOTE ]

Amendment I - Freedom of Religion, Press, Expression. Ratified 12/15/1791. Note

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances

[/ QUOTE ]

Based on that they should accept the toys. By denying them based on religious content aren't they "Respecting an establishment of religion?'

Based on that Amendment these figures should be looked at as just toys.....

[horst]

Re: No Christ Im Christmas?

[ QUOTE ]

Based on that they should accept the toys. By denying them based on religious content aren't they "Respecting an establishment of religion?'

Based on that Amendment these figures should be looked at as just toys.....

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Actually based on that they are free to chose whatever they want to accept for toys.They cant be made to take these toys purely because theyre religous figures.Like I said, without knowing the religous background of each child these toys are going to theyre would be negative publicity if they did accept them and handed them out indiscriminately.

Youre statements rather contradictory, are the "just toys" or or they a "establishment of religion"?They cant be both.IMO theyre toys, nothing more, they depict religous figures but they dont stand for any one set religionThey turn down toys every year that they dont feel are acceptable, this is no different.

[Guest Andrea]

Re: No Christ Im Christmas?

Heaven forbid Christians give a little Muslim( or buddhist or Hindu) boy or girl a biblical toy!!! Gimme a break.

If the Toys for Tots don't want to give them out, then the Christian group should start their own toy drive and include them in it.

[Jeramie]

Re: No Christ Im Christmas?

[ QUOTE ]

[ QUOTE ]

Based on that they should accept the toys. By denying them based on religious content aren't they "Respecting an establishment of religion?'

Based on that Amendment these figures should be looked at as just toys.....

[/ QUOTE ]

Actually based on that they are free to chose whatever they want to accept for toys.They cant be made to take these toys purely because theyre religous figures.Like I said, without knowing the religous background of each child these toys are going to theyre would be negative publicity if they did accept them and handed them out indiscriminately.

Youre statements rather contradictory, are the "just toys" or or they a "establishment of religion"?They cant be both.IMO theyre toys, nothing more, they depict religous figures but they dont stand for any one set religionThey turn down toys every year that they dont feel are acceptable, this is no different.

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No, my point was that if they deny them as a religious icon they are in fact putting the religion aspect into play. In said case someone could argue that any elephant toy could be considered a religious icon, or a cow, or a monkey etc....

By that amendment they shouldn't be putting religious labels on any toy (even if that is what the toy was intended for). Their point of view should be neutral... Thats the reason it seems contrary. The amendment says they can respect no religion yet they turned down toys based on religious context. Thats where the contradiction comes to play.

[Guest gabuckbuster03]

Re: No Christ In Christmas?

[ QUOTE ]

Heck, we've asked God to get out of our schools, out of our government, and out of our lives in this country. Is it any wonder we have the problems we do? I'm glad I know him, I'd sure hate to be on the other team when this game ends.

[/ QUOTE ]

same thing i was thinkin

[kidd]

Re: No Christ In Christmas?

remember kids

we are just alians of this world!!!

good tymes

nate

[wtnhunt]

Re: No Christ In Christmas?

This it so stupid. If the toys for tots is going to be giving out the toys for Christmas, then I guess I am confused how the religious groups that do not celebrate Christmas would be effected being that they will not get any toys in the first place????

More liberal politcal non sense!!!

[johnf]

Re: No Christ In Christmas?

Kinda what I was thinking wtnhunt. Why would they give a Christmas present to someone who didn't believe in Christ?

If there handing out presents for every religion, I want my Honukah and Ramidon toys for the last 38 years darn it!

If they aren't Christma presents, why do they want them now?

[markyj987]

Re: No Christ In Christmas?

I wouild have to delete my post and ban myself if I said what was exactly on my mind right now, but I will not hesitate to quote from the Toys for Tots website:

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OBJECTIVES: The objectives of Toys for Tots are to help needy children throughout the United States experience the joy of Christmas; to play an active role in the development of one of our nation's most valuable natural resources - our children; to unite all members of local communities in a common cause for three months each year during the annual toy collection and distribution campaign; and to contribute to better communities in the future.

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Again...

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the joy of Christmas

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Horst is right...this organization can accept or reject any donation they want. We of course, either can donate or not donate to them. I will not.

[horst]

Re: No Christ In Christmas?

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If they aren't Christma presents, why do they want them now?

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People were celebrating at this time of year before Christianity ever came about.

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The middle of winter has long been a time of celebration around the world. Centuries before the arrival of the man called Jesus, early Europeans celebrated light and birth in the darkest days of winter. Many peoples rejoiced during the winter solstice, when the worst of the winter was behind them and they could look forward to longer days and extended hours of sunlight.

In Scandinavia, the Norse celebrated Yule from December 21, the winter solstice, through January. In recognition of the return of the sun, fathers and sons would bring home large logs, which they would set on fire. The people would feast until the log burned out, which could take as many as 12 days. The Norse believed that each spark from the fire represented a new pig or calf that would be born during the coming year.

The end of December was a perfect time for celebration in most areas of Europe. At that time of year, most cattle were slaughtered so they would not have to be fed during the winter. For many, it was the only time of year when they had a supply of fresh meat. In addition, most wine and beer made during the year was finally fermented and ready for drinking.

In Germany, people honored the pagan god Oden during the mid-winter holiday. Germans were terrified of Oden, as they believed he made nocturnal flights through the sky to observe his people, and then decide who would prosper or perish. Because of his presence, many people chose to stay inside.

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In Rome, where winters were not as harsh as those in the far north, Saturnalia—a holiday in honor of Saturn, the god of agriculture—was celebrated. Beginning in the week leading up to the winter solstice and continuing for a full month, Saturnalia was a hedonistic time, when food and drink were plentiful and the normal Roman social order was turned upside down. For a month, slaves would become masters. Peasants were in command of the city. Business and schools were closed so that everyone could join in the fun.

Also around the time of the winter solstice, Romans observed Juvenalia, a feast honoring the children of Rome. In addition, members of the upper classes often celebrated the birthday of Mithra, the god of the unconquerable sun, on December 25. It was believed that Mithra, an infant god, was born of a rock. For some Romans, Mithra's birthday was the most sacred day of the year.

In the early years of Christianity, Easter was the main holiday; the birth of Jesus was not celebrated. In the fourth century, church officials decided to institute the birth of Jesus as a holiday.Unfortunately, the Bible does not mention date for his birth (a fact Puritans later pointed out in order to deny the legitimacy of the celebration). Although some evidence suggests that his birth may have occurred in the spring (why would shepherds be herding in the middle of winter?), Pope Julius I chose December 25. It is commonly believed that the church chose this date in an effort to adopt and absorb the traditions of the pagan Saturnalia festival. First called the Feast of the Nativity, the custom spread to Egypt by 432 and to England by the end of the sixth century. By the end of the eighth century, the celebration of Christmas had spread all the way to Scandinavia. Today, in the Greek and Russian orthodox churches, Christmas is celebrated 13 days after the 25th, which is also referred to as the Epiphany or Three Kings Day. This is the day it is believed that the three wise men finally found Jesus in the manger.

By holding Christmas at the same time as traditional winter solstice festivals, church leaders increased the chances that Christmas would be popularly embraced, but gave up the ability to dictate how it was celebrated. By the Middle Ages, Christianity had, for the most part, replaced pagan religion. On Christmas, believers attended church, then celebrated raucously in a drunken, carnival-like atmosphere similar to today's Mardi Gras. Each year, a beggar or student would be crowned the "lord of misrule" and eager celebrants played the part of his subjects. The poor would go to the houses of the rich and demand their best food and drink. If owners failed to comply, their visitors would most likely terrorize them with mischief. Christmas became the time of year when the upper classes could repay their real or imagined "debt" to society by entertaining less fortunate citizens.

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Christians hijacked a pagen holiday, people around the world celebrated at this time of year before Christ ever walked the earth.They didnt actually pick this time because it was Christs birthday, they picked it in the hopes it would be more readily embraced by people who were already celebrating.Seeing how it was never theyre holiday to begin with and they just adopted and changed it over the course of the years Id say people can pretty much choose to celebrate it however they want to, the Christians did.

[Jeramie]

Re: No Christ In Christmas?

Horst..... How many people do you know in North America that actually celebrate Light and or Darkness, or the burning of a log?

The celebration is about Christmas. Toys for tots even states "The Joy Of Christmas." It doesn't matter what a culture was doing thousands of years ago so your post really has no valid point.

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Christians hijacked a pagen holiday, people around the world celebrated at this time of year before Christ ever walked the earth.

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Oh we hijacked Christmas! I always thought we Celebrated Christ's birth! Perhaps Marry looked at the bigger picture and gave birth to Christ when it was most opertune for the faith!

{David} "But Marry, youre not due for two more months!"

{Marry} "Rrrrrrr, aaaaaahhhhhh! I know, but theyre burning a tree down the street and we cant be outdone by those pagans! Rrrrrrr aaaaaaaaahhhhhh!"

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They didnt actually pick this time because it was Christs birthday, they picked it in the hopes it would be more readily embraced by people who were already celebrating.Seeing how it was never theyre holiday to begin with and they just adopted and changed it over the course of the years

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If you do a little reasearch I bet your birthday falls on some holiday, somewhere in the world. Perhaps ancient druids celebrated "Happy Dancing Beetle day!" Our history on this planet is vast and to assume that someone, somewhere in the world, celebrated something pretty much every day on the calender isnt to far of a stretch.

When people wish you a happy birthday are they infact celbrating a holiday that was observed thousands of years ago and you simply hijacked that day in effort to get more recognition on your "Special day?" That an obsurd claim. Ever consider the fact that maybe Christians are celebrating Christ's birthday!? Oh the humanity.....

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Id say people can pretty much choose to celebrate it however they want to, the Christians did.

[/ QUOTE ]

Absolutely! But dont link it to Christmas. Dont try to confuse the burning of a log with such a celebrated birthday. Ive never seen a single family cut down a tree to burn in celebration of the end of the year. Toys for tots makes not claims of celebrating any other Holiday. In fact ive never seen them take up donations for Hanukkah.

Instead I see people with Manger scenes, Christmas lights, and Christmas gifts. Again, read the statement posted above about Toys for Tots, it even says "Christmas" and due to the fact that is what this post is about your dragging out of celebrations (thousands of years old) is really grasping for straws! People use to celebrate everything, every month. There was no special emphasis on the late year. Do a little more research. Harvest was a HUGE time and it isn't during winter. People also celebrated planting and spring. With 5-minutes of research on annual celebrations your "Theory" that Christians Hijacked a day based on Celebrations could easily be blown out of the water. People use to sacrifice during planting for heavens sake. If you were wanting to steal attention I do believe id be headed more that direction then the burning of a log.

You make some pretty strong assumptions in your post about Hijacking and such with no Validity. You weren't around when the letters read B.C. so you have no way of knowing that Jesus wasn't born in December.

You're really grasping at straws here hoping to pull the long one.....

[johnf]

Re: No Christ In Christmas?

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David} "But Marry, youre not due for two more months!"

{Marry} "Rrrrrrr, aaaaaahhhhhh! I know, but theyre burning a tree down the street and we cant be outdone by those pagans! Rrrrrrr aaaaaaaaahhhhhh!"

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I don't care who you are, that's funny.

[wtnhunt]

Re: No Christ In Christmas?

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Horst is right...this organization can accept or reject any donation they want. We of course, either can donate or not donate to them. I will not.

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Yep, We will not either. Seems pretty well like that is just hypocrisy. Another charitable organization that is asking for contributions based on lies.

[oldksnarc]

Re: No Christ Im Christmas?

[ QUOTE ]

Amendment I - Freedom of Religion, Press, Expression. Ratified 12/15/1791. Note

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances

[/ QUOTE ]

It says "freedom of religion" not freedom from religion. It means the government shall not establish a religion - that each person is free to practice whatever religion they want - or not. England's King established the official religion and the founding fathers said that was wrong and wanted the freedom to practice as they choose to individually.

It's amazing how many people don't want religion shoved down their throat yet they pratice religious holidays and participate in the benefits of said holidays such as gifts and the day(s) off from work.

I think Toys for Tots is a great program and have donated to it for years. Also, I don't disagree with the business side of this issue.

However, if you take Christ out of it it's not Christmas - it's a winter entitlement program for disadvantaged youths. Did they remove dinosaur toys from the program? Teaching evolution is OK but Christ or religion isn't?

The holiday is not about toys but rather about religion and they're going to take religion out of it?

[horst]

Re: No Christ In Christmas?

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Horst..... How many people do you know in North America that actually celebrate Light and or Darkness, or the burning of a log?

The celebration is about Christmas. Toys for tots even states "The Joy Of Christmas." It doesn't matter what a culture was doing thousands of years ago so your post really has no valid point.

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Your basing your whole argument on the wording of part of a sentence on thier websight and not looking at how they actually have given out these gifts indiscriminately for years without any religous preference being needed.

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Oh we hijacked Christmas! I always thought we Celebrated Christ's birth! Perhaps Marry looked at the bigger picture and gave birth to Christ when it was most opertune for the faith

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Show me in the bible where it gives that day as Christs birthday.Show me any reference to the actual date he was born on.Cant find it can you?Yep, you hijacked a pagen holiday and turned it into Christs birthday.Learn to live with it.

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You're really grasping at straws here hoping to pull the long one.....

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Your all the ones wanting to debate the meaning of Christmas and how it affects people of other faiths.If you want to have a ralistic debate it you have to look at its origins.If the dont fit neatly into your preconcieved notions about a holiday you call them absurd, even if theyre proven in history.Very open minded of you.Blow off its origins and base your debate on a sentence fragment from the toys for tots program.Unfortunatley for you it was started by a pope, its part of the Catholic churches history, I dont make this stuff up as you seem to believe.

You know whats funny, everyones all bent out of shape about a company thats only goal is to make a buck off the image of Jesus, how christian of them.Some christian demoninations would even view them as graven images.The toys didnt sell, they want to unload them, at 25$ a piece times 4000 toys thats a large charitable contribution to deduct.Shame on the marines for not allowing them a tax right off.