Cull buck-maybe?

[wtnhunt]

What do yo guys think? Is the left side and injury or just something screwy with genetics. Got several we have seen with no brows this year a couple of wide 1.5 year old 4 pointers that are smaller in the body than this buck. Have seen this 3 point several times, I know he is not a mature deer, but think he will ever really amount to anything or think needs to be taken out if we get a chance?

[BowtechTurkeyHunter]

Re: Cull buck-maybe?

No Brows I would take him out ... sounds like the Genetics are there and that wouldn't be a good thing to pass along ... I would cull every no brow deer out of my heard if I thought the herd could withstand it ...

Steve

[buckee]

Re: Cull buck-maybe?

He looks like he is still pretty young (last year's fawn). Very small bases. I'd give him another year, just to be sure. Pretty cool lookin corkscrew....eh

[shockwave]

Re: Cull buck-maybe?

give him another year,keep your camera in the woods and see what happens

[Mirage]

Re: Cull buck-maybe?

I dont believe in culling deer I think they are all great!

[toddyboman]

Re: Cull buck-maybe?

I think he is just a young buck and this is his first rack. His horn probably grew that way because he probably hit it on something while in velvet. Lots of young deer (first racks) dont always have brows but develop them next year. I would give him at least another year and see what happens. JMO

[nemodeerhuntersneighbor]

Re: Cull buck-maybe?

The number one most important factor in for big deer is age. Sometimes bucks need till their 3-4 yrs old to show their stuff. This deer looks young and needs a chance to show his.

[gitcha_some]

Re: Cull buck-maybe?

wack em

[Guest Finn]

Re: Cull buck-maybe?

I'd give him one more year and then cull if it's still jacked up.

[6sixpoint_nobrows]

Re: Cull buck-maybe?

pretty cool pic....like they said above one more year wouldnt hurt....just to be safe..

[Guest Kory]

Re: Cull buck-maybe?

He could have hit it on something, give him another year.

[arrow32]

Re: Cull buck-maybe?

Give him another year. One last chance to get it right.

[Texan_Til_I_Die]

Re: Cull buck-maybe?

[ QUOTE ]

No Brows I would take him out ... sounds like the Genetics are there and that wouldn't be a good thing to pass along ... I would cull every no brow deer out of my heard if I thought the herd could withstand it ...

Steve

[/ QUOTE ]

That is exactly correct if you're attempting to intensively manage for superior genetics. A spike or any buck that lacks eye guards is displaying the major traits of deer that do not carry the genetic potential to reach "trophy" size. And this is applicable regardless of age.

Now keep in mind that this management strategy isn't something that should be applied haphazardly. If you're serious about trophy management, then you've got to stick to your plan and don't expect to see major results for several years. But when the results do start coming in, you'll be amazed at what you see!

A rough example of a trophy management plan might include removing all spikes and all bucks without eye guards regardless of age. That means that only the 1.5 year olds with 6 or more points walk. Then you'll want to remove all 3.5 year olds that don't have at least 10 points. You'll also remove all 4.5+ bucks that won't score over 150. Along with this, you need to be removing a significant number of older does so that the remaining younger does that breed will have a greater chance of carrying the desirable genetics of their fathers. It's a very long term and complicated process, but it DOES work.

If you'd like to see the results of some of these management programs, visit the Los Cazadores web site and check out the bucks that are entered in that contest. Virtually all of these deer come from ranches with intensive management practices. Some are high fenced, but others are not. Each entry is clearly marked as to whether it came from a high fence or low fence property.

[Bond]

Re: Cull buck-maybe?

I disagree Texan. You can't tell what a buck is going to be like until he's 3.5 at the very minimum. A spike or a fork just means that they were born later. A yearling spike could very easily outgrow a yearling 6 or 8 point by the time they're both 4.5.

My philosophy was always against culling because we don't have enough bucks and the bucks never got old enough that even a small 4.5 year old would be a wall mounter. Most bucks around here just don't get to be that old. A small 4.5 year old would probably be bigger than an average 2.5 or 3.5 that most people shoot around here. I always figured the more bucks, the better.

But now it's been proven that culling spikes is a bad philosophy. Go ahead and pick up the October November and December issues of NAW and read all about it.

[Bond]

Re: Cull buck-maybe?

I do however agree about culling the 4.5 year olds that aren't over 150. By the time they're 4.5 years, you can tell that they're going to be a good buck or not.

I still won't practice though, at least not on our hunting land. A 145 is still a trophy in my book.

[Guest HaDeRonDa]

Re: Cull buck-maybe?

[ QUOTE ]

A rough example of a trophy management plan might include removing all spikes and all bucks without eye guards regardless of age. That means that only the 1.5 year olds with 6 or more points walk.

[/ QUOTE ]

Texas. You may be able to do that in Texas where there essentially no winter but you couldn't do that in the NE.

If you did there would be no deer!!! Feel free to ask most any guy in the Northeast. Except in areas where there is always a mild winter and great feed this strategy would be a poor one at best. Most places I have hunted in the NE a 2 1/2 old is still at best a small 8 pt! Help guys to remember that we will not see his, a bucks, potential as far as antler mass is concerned until his bones are mature.

Wtnhunt. He's a 1 1/2 old buck. Next year will be a better time to figure him out. I'd shoot him for meat if I needed to fill a tag but if you want a rack he will never have one, ever, if you just wack him!

[Born2Hunt]

Re: Cull buck-maybe?

Let him go!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Texan_Til_I_Die]

Re: Cull buck-maybe?

[ QUOTE ]

You can't tell what a buck is going to be like until he's 3.5 at the very minimum. A spike or a fork just means that they were born later. A yearling spike could very easily outgrow a yearling 6 or 8 point by the time they're both 4.5.

But now it's been proven that culling spikes is a bad philosophy. Go ahead and pick up the October November and December issues of NAW and read all about it.

[/ QUOTE ]

Some writers and biologists have opinions about deer management while others have scientific fact. As in 32 years worth of documented studies on captive deer. Keep in mind that I don't have anything invested in the deer in your particular area and most likely will never go there to hunt. I'm just giving you examples of proven management strategies that are currently producing incredible numbers of 180 - 240 inch bucks on ranches that didn't produce those types of deer until these very same practices were put into place. I for one can't argue with the results I'm seeing.

Understanding Spike Buck Harvest

Spikes Are Inferior, Or Are They?

[Texan_Til_I_Die]

Re: Cull buck-maybe?

[ QUOTE ]

Texas. You may be able to do that in Texas where there essentially no winter but you couldn't do that in the NE.

If you did there would be no deer!!!

[/ QUOTE ]

You want to talk harsh conditions? Try going from August 2005 until August 2006 with 0" of rain. That's what the deer are experiencing now. Plus we routinely have lows in the 20's and occasionally the 10's. Enviromental factors are certainly relevant to deer mortality, but what makes you think that 1.5 year old spike or 4 point is better equipped to survive a hard winter than any of the other bucks? I'm not following your logic?

Are you saying that virtually ALL 1.5 year old bucks in that area are either spikes or 4 points? If that's the case, then you've either got some serious genetic issues or nutritional problems (or both) that really need to be addressed. Maybe past management practices have resulted in such a high percentage of small antlered yearlings? Somethings out of whack because you should be seeing a significant percentage of bucks sporting 6 or 8 point racks their first year.

[wtnhunt]

Re: Cull buck-maybe?

Well, I have seen quite a few deer here at 1.5 over the years with 6 to 8 points, and most of them usually do have brows at that point.

The concept of truly managing this small property however really is a joke, and I have really given that up, I was just asking because I was curious, and the responses have been pretty interesting.

The deer in the pic did look to me like he might be a bit of a genetic misfit, have seen a number of funky 3 pointers at 1.5 year olds with similar traits and 7 pointers at 2.5 year olds weak on one side or the other over the past 5 or 6 years.

[mike]

Re: Cull buck-maybe?

then i would say cull him if these traits are showing up in other and older deer. i would have to agree with texan on his management plans.

[Guest HaDeRonDa]

Re: Cull buck-maybe?

[ QUOTE ]

You want to talk harsh conditions? Try going from August 2005 until August 2006 with 0" of rain. That's what the deer are experiencing now. Plus we routinely have lows in the 20's and occasionally the 10's. Enviromental factors are certainly relevant to deer mortality, but what makes you think that 1.5 year old spike or 4 point is better equipped to survive a hard winter than any of the other bucks? I'm not following your logic?

[/ QUOTE ]

Actually a spike or 4 point is usually better equipped to survive a winter in the NE. I'm sure you will follow this.

A 3.5 - 6.5 y/o buck tends more of the doe herd therefore he breads more does. In areas where the deer population is already low he may drop 30% of his body weight. So this 300 lb live weight buck by the time the rut is over now weighs a mere 200 lbs. The winter hasn't even started here.

The spike or 4 pt has not run his tail off losing so much weight. He still has most of his fat reserves to survive the winter. Now, a larger buck needs to eat more to maintain himself where as a small younger buck does not. The larger buck also loses heat from the effects of the winter cold faster as well.

There is lots of information on the effects of winter on deer available on the web. If you know someone who is a grad student their student ID may be able to get you into a research database out there.

10 degrees is no problem for a deer. In fact they don't have much of a problem keeping warm until the temp strikes the negatives. How's the -30 range sound?

Do a google for winter kill of deer in the Tug Hill area of NY. Where they experience over 200 inches of snow in a single winter. That's over 16 feet a year.

WMU 6F

Area = 1,213 square miles

BTO = None

2005 Buck Take = 0.7 bucks harvested per square mile

2005 Total Deer Take = 0.9 deer harvested per square mile

Tug Hill Plateau New York State.

http://www.dec.state.ny.us/website/dfwmr/wildlife/deer/deerfreg6.htm

WMU 6F is part of the west-central Adirondack region, situated in St. Lawrence and Franklin counties. Although not as high in elevation or as rugged as the High Peaks, it is largely made up of mature forests on hilly to small mountain terrain. Deer populations are fairly stable at relatively low densities. Winter conditions in this unit tend to have more impact on deer numbers than any other factor due to high annual snowfall, cold temperatures and limited human accessibility. DMPs are not offered in this unit or in other central Adirondack WMUs because of low deer numbers, sensitivity to antlerless harvest and unpredictable population fluctuations which can occur as a result of winter. With the very mild winter conditions experienced in 2005, deer survival and subsequent fawn numbers should be good. An overall increase in the deer take is expected in 2006.

That BTO above is Buck Take Objective. The state has none here because they never know how many deer they will lose during the winter. Every spring students go to yarding areas to count the winter kill deer. It'a almost scarey to see then all laying there.

Are you saying that virtually ALL 1.5 year old bucks in that area are either spikes or 4 points? If that's the case, then you've either got some serious genetic issues or nutritional problems (or both) that really need to be addressed. Maybe past management practices have resulted in such a high percentage of small antlered yearlings? Somethings out of whack because you should be seeing a significant percentage of bucks sporting 6 or 8 point racks their first year.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm glad you said virtually. LMBO.

To be short, think of a bad winter, that you haven't maybe ever experienced, then think of a second or third estus cycle buck fawn. How might the winter treat him?

Might he get so drained from the winter as far as fat reserves are concerned that it takes him another 3 months just ot get back up to weight? Hopefully now you can begin to see why the small antlers.

Even 1st born fawns experience this up here.

There are areas of high nutrition in the NE but those are not common.

So I too would like to generalize and just say wack'em but the geographic area that you are talking about needs to be examined first.

Texas, Honestly, I have very little knowledge of how drought affects a deer. I can guess and I bet I could rack my brain for a few minutes biologically speaking and come up with a good answer. What you know surely may apply to areas that have little or winter but

culling spikes in the NE is "generally" a bad idea.

Let's not talk about the poor nutrition of the big mountains of the NE. The only areas where there is good nutrition is near private land that has been logged or near Vlys in the valleys.

Wtnhunt, if you normally see 6 and 8 pts that are 1.5 y/o then this 3 pt is an oddity right? I wonder what his story is. Late born? Aborted fetus that happened to live? Poor genetics? Poor nourished mother that had poor lactation. He's meat, IMO, if 6 and 8 are the norm!