wtnhunt Posted December 27, 2006 Report Share Posted December 27, 2006 Re: taking young bucks. Been an interesting thread here for sure. If I was going to go out of state to hunt, just dont think I would settle for something I could kill at home, but then not everyone has the same goals in hunting and people need to hunt to satisfy their own goals. If that be taking a 1.5 year old on an out of state hunt, so long as it is legal, then I would have to be supportive, even though it would not be what I would be expecting of myself and my goals if I were ever to take an out of state hunt. The argument about meat and going empty handed, most states offer doe permits, the hunters concerned with not getting any meat could in many cases whack a doe if they are afraid to leave an out of state hunt feeling like they went empty handed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Bonemass Posted December 27, 2006 Report Share Posted December 27, 2006 Re: taking young bucks. For years I have heard and been in debates about whether or not to shoot SPIKE bucks. In the past I have always argued the fact to let them grow a few years.Then decide whether or not they should be culled from the herd. New studies released show that "young bucks" develop spike antlers if they are nutritionally deprived during the early stages of life. Research biologists have learned, bucks that started out as spikes, seldom caught up in antler development to bucks that produced forked horns as yearlings. In studies some bucks were fed a low quality diets, and grew forked horns even though they were nutitionally deprived. This was due to greater genetic potential these bucks had for producing larger antlers, despite the resraints of a low quality diet. These bucks continued to grow larger antlers then those of the same age that started out as spikes as yearlings. To determine the odds of a spike buck siring more spike bucks was done. A buck with a short spike was choosen for the study. This buck eventually grew a 6 pt rack w/o brow tines at 3 yrs old. Poor antler growth continued for the 6 pt and it's offspring even though they had been on a "High Quality Diet" This buck was breed to 6 does. Every offspring buck grew spike antlers in the study. These offspring were also studied into their adulthood and their offspring. Very seldom did any of these deer develop anything more than a main frame 7 pt at maturity. A seperate study was done on Doe's and there influance on bucks antler growth. In the study the mature doe's buck offspring grew a lesser quality antlers then those of a doe thats first and second set of offspring. So a young doe's offspring(bucks) is more likely to produce better antlers and body size then that of the mature doe's offspring. Shooting the mature doe's and spike bucks at 1 1/2 yrs old is now a good practice for QDM program on your property Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
buckbuster11 Posted December 27, 2006 Report Share Posted December 27, 2006 Re: taking young bucks. [ QUOTE ] For years I have heard and been in debates about whether or not to shoot SPIKE bucks. In the past I have always argued the fact to let them grow a few years.Then decide whether or not they should be culled from the herd. New studies released show that "young bucks" develop spike antlers if they are nutritionally deprived during the early stages of life. Research biologists have learned, bucks that started out as spikes, seldom caught up in antler development to bucks that produced forked horns as yearlings. In studies some bucks were fed a low quality diets, and grew forked horns even though they were nutitionally deprived. This was due to greater genetic potential these bucks had for producing larger antlers, despite the resraints of a low quality diet. These bucks continued to grow larger antlers then those of the same age that started out as spikes as yearlings. To determine the odds of a spike buck siring more spike bucks was done. A buck with a short spike was choosen for the study. This buck eventually grew a 6 pt rack w/o brow tines at 3 yrs old. Poor antler growth continued for the 6 pt and it's offspring even though they had been on a "High Quality Diet" This buck was breed to 6 does. Every offspring buck grew spike antlers in the study. These offspring were also studied into their adulthood and their offspring. Very seldom did any of these deer develop anything more than a main frame 7 pt at maturity. A seperate study was done on Doe's and there influance on bucks antler growth. In the study the mature doe's buck offspring grew a lesser quality antlers then those of a doe thats first and second set of offspring. So a young doe's offspring(bucks) is more likely to produce better antlers and body size then that of the mature doe's offspring. Shooting the mature doe's and spike bucks at 1 1/2 yrs old is now a good practice for QDM program on your property [/ QUOTE ] What's the source for that info? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Bonemass Posted December 27, 2006 Report Share Posted December 27, 2006 Re: taking young bucks. Wildlife Biologists: Donnie Harmel, Bill Armstrong and numerous others working at Kerr Wildlife Management facility in Texas, Dr. JohnWilliams, a geneticist at Texas A&M University On the research and nutrition and genetics on antler development. The study has ran for more then 20 yrs and continues to run. This is just one of several other steps of course in QDM. But i found it interesting and counterdicting some of my old beliefs. After having studied up on QDM I have come to change my way of thinking and hunting methods. There is a pretty good video put out by a friend of mine, Called "Whitetail Paradise" there are 5 dvd's out and the sixth on it's way. They guy knows what he is doing when it comes to land management. And i am learning Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Bonemass Posted December 27, 2006 Report Share Posted December 27, 2006 Re: taking young bucks. By the way wheres "Big(dartonman) Al hiding ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wtnhunt Posted December 27, 2006 Report Share Posted December 27, 2006 Re: taking young bucks. Dr James Kroll would most certainly refute the findings from that study. Matter of fact, he has recorded that spike bucks at 1.5 years or younger can grow into trophy caliber deer given the opportunity. Pretty sure an episode from NAW a few years ago that aired showed some of his studies and showed some antlers from a deer he followed that was once a spike. Another thing here to remember is that the doe is also responsible for the genetic makeup of the fawn she drops, if the fawns were all spikes in their first year according to that study, would be willing to bet the does were also somewhat responsible for those traits being shown. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
need2hunt Posted December 27, 2006 Report Share Posted December 27, 2006 Re: taking young bucks. [ QUOTE ] By the way wheres "Big(dartonman) Al hiding ? [/ QUOTE ] Currently he's hiding in the doghouse, according to his latest classified ad Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hillbilly Posted December 27, 2006 Report Share Posted December 27, 2006 Re: taking young bucks. I killed a button buck on my parents land, yes I would love to kill a giant buck, but this button buck passed by and I wanted some meet for the freezer. The way I took it is, that yardog is talking about a managment land that allows out fof state hunters to come and hunt for a price right?? Well see I dont have the cash on me to do that, so I'll shoot the deer I want and do my own managing that I see fit. I do have some nice bucks on my land. Three big reasons I hunt: 1. Enjoy the outdoors... 2. Feel the freezer 3. Keep the tradition of being able to bear arms, and keep the tradition of hunting. Harvesting a big buck is not even in my top 100 reasons to deer hunt. Would be nice to kill one every season, but thats not on my list. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Bonemass Posted December 27, 2006 Report Share Posted December 27, 2006 Re: taking young bucks. apparently this topic is going on in two forums, i didn't realize it. wtnhunt..... I was referring to the young doe vs. mature theory with Dr Kroll He had nothing to do with the spike study I better go see what ole Al has gotten himself into again..... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Hunter36 Posted December 27, 2006 Report Share Posted December 27, 2006 Re: taking young bucks. [ QUOTE ] If that be taking a 1.5 year old on an out of state hunt, so long as it is legal, then I would have to be supportive, even though it would not be what I would be expecting of myself and my goals if I were ever to take an out of state hunt. [/ QUOTE ] This is exactly the point!! Everybody has there own goals and own standards as long as it is legal then so be it. I've shot a couple trophy bucks (130 inch 5 yr old and a 155 inch 6 yr old) but like I said I shot a 92 inch deer in N.D. and I enjoyed shooting that deer the same if not more than the two larger/older deer. I am a firm believer in the hunt and the experience. The kill no matter how big or small is jsut alittle bonus. and like I said before if they complain after shooting an animal there is nothin anyone can do about it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wtnhunt Posted December 28, 2006 Report Share Posted December 28, 2006 Re: taking young bucks. [ QUOTE ] apparently this topic is going on in two forums, i didn't realize it. wtnhunt..... I was referring to the young doe vs. mature theory with Dr Kroll He had nothing to do with the spike study I better go see what ole Al has gotten himself into again..... [/ QUOTE ] This topic has come up in here several times over the years, and there is a similar discussion in the land and wildlife forum, this discussion and that discussion are not exactly the same though. As for Dr Kroll, I am pretty certain he took credit on the show I was referring to for a study about spikes, at least that was the impression I got. Maybe he left out that someone else conducted this study and he was just passing on the information, but that was not how I took it. For anyone who has seen the segment on the show I am referring to they would know what I am talking about. The question raised by some and the thought that "once a spike always a spike" seems to not hold up, and the concept that all spikes will have inferior genetics that will be passed on might not necessarily hold true either. There are determining factors in genetics as I am sure you will agree, the bucks genetics are not the sole set that will be displayed in future fawns. A spike that is maybe a yearling or this years fawn may have a late start and might possibly catch up in the next growing season. There are a lot of factors going into antler growth to be taken into consideration. First year of the deers life, if the deer has had unusual stress, lack of the protein and calcium available to grow the antlers in the first year could all play a role in the reasoning why that deer might not display its genetic potential. I will agree if a deer is older than 1.5 and grows spikes, then it is carrying inferior genetics, but deer 1.5 years and younger are in the stages of growing their bodies and the ingredients needed for them to get the antlers might just not all be there that early on. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HOYTnMUZZYboy Posted December 31, 2006 Report Share Posted December 31, 2006 Re: taking young bucks. Whatever happend with getting out and having fun? Iv seen a 10yr old boy shoot a doe with a shotgun, and it might as well been a 20pt buck. He told everyone in town about it. Keep in mind were talking about a doe. I personaly wont point the barrel of any gun at a deer, now when it comes to looking thru a peep and pull the trigger and play some string music with my Hoyt i wont think twice. JMO. I like to let smaller bucks walk, not just so they can grow and hopefully one day become monsters, but what about that 10yr old out hunting with his dad. I remember when i was that age, the feeling you get when ur that age infront of such a fantastic timber ghost. So IMO its not about just deer managment, but passing on that lil buck to let someone get that same thrill that you or I may get when we have that 160 class buck infront of us. Its not how big the buck is your harvesting, but its how big the thrill is for you. I personally get the same shakey weak in the knees feeling on every deer i draw back on, doe or buck. Theres people that post pics of nice looking bucks on here, and theres people that post pics of does too, prolly alot of the same people. And they wouldnt do it if they were not proud of them. Rather ur gun hunting or bow hunting, you take the time to scout out ur land, hang a stand, make a blind, take time out of your day, travel 15 hours in a truck, or walk 5min out ur back door, to what sit like everyone else. Everyone does it the same, some maybe in "better spots" or have more time to put into it. But I guess what it all boils down to is, we all love hunting. Everyone has there differnt outlook on a trophy, or meat for the freezer, and no one should be looked down upon or should have a negative comments made about there harvest. JMO Hope no one takes this personal. Happy hunting! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SUGARKAHNE Posted January 5, 2007 Report Share Posted January 5, 2007 Re: taking young bucks. [ QUOTE ] I am SICK AND TIRED of people coming here telling ME and everyone else what WE SHOULD SHOOT. As long as it is LEGAL, sobeit. If you wanna pay for my tags, license, stand, gas, bullets, arrows, broadheads, and ALL my other expenses, then, and ONLY then, can YOU tell me what I can, can't shoot. Until then, LEAVE ME AND EVERY OTHER "MEAT" HUNTER ALONE. Thank You -------------------- 5 dollar fine for whining........... If your gonna whine, take it somewhere else [/ QUOTE ] Nobody was condemning you for shooting small bucks, they were stating personal preference. dude, look at your sig. Either cough up the $5 or take it somewhere else! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Nobody Posted January 5, 2007 Report Share Posted January 5, 2007 Re: taking young bucks. I have already given my opinion on this subject but apparently I can't share it if it doesn't float with the majority Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dogdoc Posted January 5, 2007 Report Share Posted January 5, 2007 Re: taking young bucks. [ QUOTE ] I have already given my opinion on this subject but apparently I can't share it if it doesn't float with the majority [/ QUOTE ] you can post opinion in a thread like this anytime you want. Where your opinion might cause a problem is when it is stated in a thread showing a hunters harvest. There are many threads I don't respond too b/c I might not agree with the means the deer was taken--however I don't try to hijack that posters thread by posting my unaproval for his/her kill. todd Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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