Blackpowder and bullet penetration

[Adjam5]

Looking for some thoughts on this.

Last saturday, I was on a deer drive and shot a doe at 5 yards with my CVA Wolf. I was using 2 pellets of 777 behind a 295gr Powerbelt Hollow point. The doe didn't go 20 yards and piled up.

Heres the mystery to me...

15' away and NO pass thru...no pass thru! I would think at that close of a distance there would be maximum energy at the muzzle and most definitely a pass thru. Later when skinning the doe, I found the well mushroomed bullet under the skin on the oppisite shoulder of the shot. The bullet did not retain much weight. It shed approximatly 60% of its weight. It did a great job of stopping the deer, no question. Maybe I am just so used to the velocities and damage that centerfires generate. This is my 1st deer with a smokepole.

I am thinking low pressure load, hollow point as the reasons being for no pass thru.BUT...it was MAXIMUM energy transfer to that deer no question about it.

Anyone have thoughts as to why no pass thru so close?

Thanks.

[tedicast]

Re: Blackpowder and bullet penetration

That really doesn't surprise me. I bet the slug you recovered was either one, fragmented, or 2 mushroomed incredibly. On a close shot like that with all the energy either could happen, and not get a pass through. I shot a buck with a 12 gauge slug at 10 yards 2 years ago, with no pass through. He didn't go far, but I was shocked at not getting a pass.

[johnf]

Re: Blackpowder and bullet penetration

That sounds pretty wild. I shot a doe about 5 weeks ago at 180 yards shooting 83gr of 777 and a 275gr Shockwave. I had a very clean pass through. If it lost that much weight and mushroomed that much, all the energy went into the deer and it didn't have enough to make it out the other side.

[Gator]

Re: Blackpowder and bullet penetration

I am wondering if being that close at that velocity is whaty may have caused it to not pass through, sounds like the bullet may have exploded. Now last year I shot a buck at 18yds, no pass through, found my bullet lodged under the skin on the opposite side. It retained about 95% of its orginal weight.....

[wtnhunt]

Re: Blackpowder and bullet penetration

Only a 40 percent retention of your bullet may explain why it did not pass through. Maybe it hit bone and fragged really bad and lost the energy to penetrate on the exit side? Using the 240 grain xtp mags with 120 grains of pyrodex, I got a complete pass through on the buck I shot at about 110 yards a couple years ago.

Have shot small animals(coyotes) at close range with the .270 on a few occasions and had the impact throw the animal off the ground, pushing them back, would think the energy transferred with the pushing, likely would not penetrate as far as if the animal stayed permanently planted. Maybe similarly the doe was pushed somewhat if you hit bone good transferring the shock and energy.

[AJ]

Re: Blackpowder and bullet penetration

The faster the bullet impacts the target, the more damage it does to itself, and the tissue. The larger the frontal diameter gets the harder it is to push through. It expends most of its energy as it expands and does not have enough velocity to overcome the resistance.

[too_pointer]

Re: Blackpowder and bullet penetration

I shot a 225 lb. Russian Boar about 5 years ago with my TC Encore. 100 grain pellets of 777, and a 295 grn. powerbelt. It made it deep in the body but was recovered against the opposite shoulder. That bore dropped on the spot, and for those here that have killed them, they are extremely tough skinned animals to shoot. I still have the perfectly mushroomed bullet , couldn't of asked for anything

different.

too_

[Guest gastj]

Re: Blackpowder and bullet penetration

I've shot the XTP 300's for a decade or more. This year was the first year I didn't get pass thru. The large doe was quarting away and the bullet went took the boiler room out and lodge in the opp. shoulder. 90% retention.

I've seen the powerbelt three times now on broadside, but gut shot and two shoulder shots under 50yds and all three bullet exploded w/ little retention.

All three were not fun tracks either.

higher Bullet weight is going to increase K.Energy as long as you push it the right speed (usually faster) for the bullets construction. If you shoot a bullet down range to fast and it hits bone it can come a part or explode on impact.

I personally use 90 loose RS pyrodex and the Hornady XTP 300. Never any problems with retention. Passing thru animal depends on angle, range, and where you hit them.

[Adjam5]

Re: Blackpowder and bullet penetration

Thanks guys for the opinions.

In no way shape or form am I disappointed with what the Powerbelt did. The 295gr hollow points are what came with the gun, its what they reccomend. I sighted in with it at 100 yards and hunting I went.

I'm thinking maybe to switch bullets to obtain complete pass thrus.

I think that is what to shoot for(no pun intended ). I have a few of the polymer tipped powerbelts in a heavier weight(348gr) that I am gonna try.

This doe gave no blood trail at all. Luckily I saw her go down thru the smoke about 20 yards away. If it was a tracking job, it would have been one HECK of a tracking job with no blood to follow.

Exit wounds could only help, no only with greater blood loss, but a easier tracking job if necessary.

Whadda ya think? Should I switch bullets or is this what can be expected from low velocity muzzleloaders?

[AJ]

Re: Blackpowder and bullet penetration

I have been shooting the PR QT40 and Dead Centers which are polymer tipped, all lead bullets in a sabot and I shoot 150 gr of powder and have killed deer from 3 yards out to over 100+ yards. The bullets perform outstanding. Great wound channels, good blood trails, great expansion, superb accuracy. I do not believe in shooting the huge heavy bullets for deer. In fact I shot my last few ML deer with a 175 gr .357" bullet in my .45 cal ML. It did the job as well as any 350 gr bullet would have. It shoots flatter, generates less recoil, and worked better in my gun.

[too_pointer]

Re: Blackpowder and bullet penetration

So AJ, you don't care for all plated copper bullets ?

I have been wanting to go lighter from my .295grn. p.b. for a few years, just haven't done it yet.

I still have 2 packages of them At least I know what to try when I do change.

too_

[AJ]

Re: Blackpowder and bullet penetration

I see no reason to shoot them when velocities are under 2250 fps. You will not get above that with Pyrodex or T7. I only shoot jacketed bullets in my Savage and its pushing 2600 fps. The copper clad bullets are a joke. The jacket is still soft enough to dent with your fingernail, so it does not do much. I see no reason to shoot bullets tough enough for elk and moose at deer sized game. The expansion is not as good as an all lead bullet. The blood trail is not as good either.

[WABS]

Re: Blackpowder and bullet penetration

I do shoot the Powerbelts, but I buy and hunt with the lead version, not the copper clad. No need to pay for something I don't think is necessary. I've had VERY good success with the lead Powerbelts. Took two more bucks this year - one shot each.

[Guest deerd69]

Re: Blackpowder and bullet penetration

someone told me barnes new muzzleloader bullets are the way to go!! i shot an 8 point last friday (15th) and no pass threw with a powerbelt! switching to barnes next yr. freind use's them and has complete pass threws!!

[WABS]

Re: Blackpowder and bullet penetration

AJ - am I missing something here? There seems to be an awful lot of emphasis put on having a pass through. I tell you shoot FMJ bullets and you'll get a pass through. I realize that a pass through may make for a better blood trail, but if I have two 300 grain bullets, both leaving the muzzle at 2000 fps, one passes through and one ends up on the far side of the deer, isn't the one that doesn't pass through impacting the deer harder, since ALL of it's kinetic energy is being absorbed by the deer? I just feel that having a pass through is over rated. Am I missing something?

[Adjam5]

Re: Blackpowder and bullet penetration

From what I am gathered thru out the years...ANY bullet that kills a deer did its job. I think a pass thu is good but not necessary to kill. The more I think about it, I was soo close when I shot that doe.Since it was a hollow point too, a 295gr powerbelt. That bullet exploded on impact did some massive hydrostatic shock to that animal, even thought the bullet did not exit. The doe did not go far. When I stood up after I shot, I thought I missed. Because I was at where she was hit, and expecting to find a red forest floor. I found nothing. I walked a bit and behind a blowdown there she lay. The bullet did its job.

I weighed the bullet earlier, on my RCBS 505 scale. It started out as a .50cal 295gr hollowpoint and ended up a .813cal ( mitutoyo micrometer) wieghing 138.5grains.

47% retention and more than 50% expansion.

Could I ask for more?

I just think a pass thru gives a better blood trail, but I was so close I didn't give the bullet any chance to do its magic. If a bullet is designed for maximium energy transfer, like a hollow point is, most likely exits, I would think? would not be likely.

Jacketed, bonded, partition bullets are types that are desinged to pass thru and have controlled expansion.

As I said... I am used to what centerfire cartridges do to deer. This was my 1st Blackpowder kill.

[PA_RIDGE_RUNNER]

Re: Blackpowder and bullet penetration

After having tried several weights of power belts I liked them except for ho hum accuracy, very loose fit, questionable penetration and being just about the most expensive bullets on the market. As much as I shoot in a year I would be broke shooting them. I have switched to XTP's and have never looked back. I shoot with real bp 3F at 80 to 90 gr. So far 3 deer have fallen to them along with numerous bullseyes.

[AJ]

Re: Blackpowder and bullet penetration

[ QUOTE ]

From what I am gathered thru out the years...ANY bullet that kills a deer did its job. I think a pass thu is good but not necessary to kill.

[/ QUOTE ]

Exactly! Some guys think that if a bullet frags and kills instintly it failed. Hogwash. Now cna the bullet be expected to reach the vitals when it has to be driven through bone or hard quartering shot full of stomach and other nasty stuff? I doubt it.

Wabs,

That is always the big debate about bullet performance. The benefits to getting a pass through are:

1. Dual blood exit points, it makes recovering the game easier in thick woods.

2. The actual wound channel is larger from an expanding bullet that passes through. As the bullet that stops under the opposite hide, while it transfers more energy, it is more of a tapered wound channel. As the speed decreases, the damage is reduced. If the bullet exits, it carries the bigger hole all the way through. Personally, I think energy transfer is over rated.

3. You know you have enough penetratin to take less than optimal shots. You can usually still reach the vitals with a "Texas heart shot" when you know the bullet will exit any broadside shot.

Can you tell I am a fan of the pass throughs?