Shoot or not to Shoot Spikes

[Guest Bonemass]

For years I have heard and been in debates about whether or not to shoot SPIKE bucks. In the past I have always argued the fact to let them grow a few years.Then decide whether or not they should be culled from the herd.

New studies released show that "young bucks" develop spike antlers if they are nutritionally deprived during the early stages of life.

Research biologists have learned, bucks that started out as spikes, seldom caught up in antler development to bucks that produced forked horns as yearlings.

In studies some bucks were fed a low quality diets, and grew forked horns even though they were nutitionally deprived. This was due to greater genetic potential these bucks had for producing larger antlers, despite the resraints of a low quality diet. These bucks continued to grow larger antlers then those of the same age that started out as spikes as yearlings.

To determine the odds of a spike buck siring more spike bucks was done.

A buck with a short spike was choosen for the study. This buck eventually grew a 6 pt rack w/o brow tines at 3 yrs old. Poor antler growth continued for the 6 pt and it's offspring even though they had been on a "High Quality Diet"

This buck was breed to 6 does. Every offspring buck grew spike antlers in the study.

These offspring were also studied into their adulthood and their offspring. Very seldom did any of these deer develop anything more than a main frame 7 pt at maturity.

A seperate study was done on Doe's and there influance on bucks antler growth. In the study the mature doe's buck offspring grew a lesser quality antlers then those of a doe thats first and second set of offspring. So a young doe's offspring(bucks) is more likely to produce better antlers and body size then that of the mature doe's offspring.

Shooting the mature doe's and spike bucks at 1 1/2 yrs old is now a good practice for QDM program on your property

[Hoyt03]

Re: Shoot or not to Shoot Spikes

Not looking good for me here in PA then. We cannot shoot spikes here and I had to let 5 different ones walk this past season, all 1.5 yr olds. I was hoping that by next year a few of these will be shooters but doesnt look like that is going to happen. Did pass a 1.5 yr old fork horn b/c of the regs so maybe he'll grow something. Interesting study though, thanks for sharing.

[wtnhunt]

Re: Shoot or not to Shoot Spikes

After watching Dr Kroll's segment on spikes a few years ago on a show, I think I have to agree with him that young spikes can possibly have some potential if they are able to get some age. He showed some pretty awesome shed or cut off antlers from a deer that was a spike in his first year of growth over the course of the deers aging. The deer ended up a true trophy caliber deer when he got to his prime.

A warden here once told me that you need to cull all the spikes, but I think that is a bunch of nonsense personally unless you are seeing 2.5 year old and older spikes. The majority of the spikes we do see are late 1.5 year olds or early born fawns from that year. Really of the 1.5 year olds we do see a relatively low number are spikes. Have never seen a 2.5 year old or older here that was sporting spikes.

[Guest Bonemass]

Re: Shoot or not to Shoot Spikes

Dr. Kroll is also in the Land Management videos i mentioned. And hunted the farm behind me. The "Coiin" farms from the Whitetail Paradise videos. He also supported the fact of letting the younger doe's go and shooting the mature ones.

It's funny in a way how hunting has turned into a science

Well it's still a pation for me...lol

[Texan_Til_I_Die]

Re: Shoot or not to Shoot Spikes

There should be some real solid statistics over the next few years to either support or refute the idea of shooting spikes. A big chunk of Texas is now under AR's and that area has a bonus "spike only" tag for every licensed hunter. The purpose is to eliminate as many genetically undesirable bucks from the herd as possible. If the biologists are correct in their research, there should be a noticeable increase in average antler size and body size for the AR regions without any long term decrease in the overall buck harvest numbers. In other words, there should be just as many bucks getting killed every year, but they will, on average, have larger antlers and weigh more than the bucks that were killed in the past. We'll see...

[huntermq32]

Re: Shoot or not to Shoot Spikes

Dr. Kroll has a new study that says just the opposite. It is in north american whitetail mag. I think the number one problem with culling is most hunters miss judge the age of deer. Lets take this for example Is a deer withe spikes 6 months of age, if he is that is a lot of antler compared to a button, or is he a year and a half wont know for sure unless you harverst or capture it. Kinda defeats the purpose.I hunt a farm were I used to cull but haven't done it in 5 years and to tell you the truth I see alot more trophies then I use to.I am by no means a expert on anything but I do my fair share of studies on my huntig ground and feel I know the heard very well.Was this study done on fenced deer or were they free range wild deer.

[Guest Bonemass]

Re: Shoot or not to Shoot Spikes

That is good news for you that hunt that area. I bet it works for them. According to the study it won't take long for the difference to show, just with'in a few years. Guys will have to let some of them deer pass to get a good genetic string going in the QDM area. That of course takes several more years to achieve.

[Ravin R10 man]

Re: Shoot or not to Shoot Spikes

I dont beleive in killing spikes..give em a chance and then cull if need be..late born fawns will be spikes the next year.. the genetics are there usually,nutrition is not a big deal anymore in most places, its the age factor that is number one in determining quality trophy bucks. You cant shoot a 5 and 1/2 yr.old trophy buck if you shoot him at 1 and 1/2.

[Guest Bonemass]

Re: Shoot or not to Shoot Spikes

I think the focus on the study was more toward Mass of Antler and Body size. And depending on what your goal is for your property. They stated that you can let them grow. But they are going to continue to pass lesser genetics in a herd if you are aiming towards monster trophy quality deer.

And it is a personal preferance " to shoot or not to shoot"

I am no Trophy head hunter myself. But i do want to see a better quality of deer in the properties i hunt. For example i took this 7 pt basket rack, culled it from the herd. It has a heavy body, but lacks the good genetics the second buck i took from the same herd.

here you see his body size is good

This is what we hope to keep going in the gene pool

[huntermq32]

Re: Shoot or not to Shoot Spikes

There are pros and cons to both sides but I highly recamend reading the docs aticles in NAW mag. That last buck is a good one no dought a bout it, but how do you know for sure he wasn't a spike at one point in his life. I think it is very risky at best to just start cullng with out Knowing for sure it is the right thing to do. Dr. Kroll mentioned two other studies besides the one I speek of and said with out a dought he believes in this latest one.And ya the other hunters in my area have benifited from my efferts just as you said. One case was a 7pt I passed a few yaers ago. He grew to be 2.5 10pt the next and then I relucted to shoot him as a 3.5 10pt as he limped past me, witch I thought I would do him a faver and put him out of his missory. In 2005 he never came with in bow range of me but he did come into gun range for the guy next to me. I don't know the score as of now but at least 165 as a 4.5 year old.

[Guest Bonemass]

Re: Shoot or not to Shoot Spikes

This is my belief now. I didn't use to follow it as a rule(personal) Once a buck has reached the 4 1/2 yr mark. It can be seen in the deers body posture, head to neck area. antler mass, facial characters.

Thats a good age to start taking a buck.I wouldn't want to shoot every buck(if possible) at 4 1/2 some of those have to be let go too. I like some versity too in racks.

By trail cams and shed hunting. One can pretty much follow a native buck throught it's life.

Bucks with potential will walk by me till that age

[Texan_Til_I_Die]

Re: Shoot or not to Shoot Spikes

Don't confuse Trophy Management with Quality Management. They are not necessarily the same thing. This discussion seems to be taking more of a turn towards Trophy Management, so with that in mind, let me add a bit more to it.

The mistake that most people make when talking about spikes, is that they will point at one particular animal that was a spike at 1.5 which then grew into a respectable buck. And from that they will conclude that all spikes should be left to mature, just on the chance that it will grow up to be a trophy. The problem is that out of the MANY deer that are spikes, only a very FEW will grow to trophy status. Whereas those bucks that have at least forked antlers at 1.5, will have a much higher percentage of their cadre reach trophy status at maturity. Of course not all will make it, but there will be far, far more from this group than from the spike group. From there, it's a simple matter of mathematics. Leave more young bucks with more genetic potential while removing more with less potential and there is a certainty that a herd's overall characteristics will go up over time. In fact, you should start seeing fewer and fewer spikes. Bottom line is that you can't manage on a deer by deer basis, like you would cattle. You have to look at the entire group and do what is statistically best for the herd.

No one will argue that if you leave every young buck, regardless of genetics, you will eventually have a huge number of mature bucks. The problem is that so many of them will be 6, 8, or 10 points with 15 - 18 spreads, and that's all they'll ever be. If your goal is to manage a herd for trophies, you need to work on the genetics, along with nutrition and age.

You can bet your bottom dollar that these bucks didn't start out life as spikes!!!

[Guest Bonemass]

Re: Shoot or not to Shoot Spikes

Impressive deer Texan til i die, Good example of Trophy Management

What you stated is pretty much what i am saying i got from the studies done.Fork Horns will grow to be a better class deer, then spike will.

I know from talking the the neighboring farmers and landowners that pretty decent bucks were taking during the bow season here. From 140's to a 189 class deer.this is on four connecting farms.Of which Land Management and Quality Magement are both practiced.

[Snipe]

Re: Shoot or not to Shoot Spikes

[ QUOTE ]

There should be some real solid statistics over the next few years to either support or refute the idea of shooting spikes. A big chunk of Texas is now under AR's and that area has a bonus "spike only" tag for every licensed hunter. The purpose is to eliminate as many genetically undesirable bucks from the herd as possible. If the biologists are correct in their research, there should be a noticeable increase in average antler size and body size for the AR regions without any long term decrease in the overall buck harvest numbers. In other words, there should be just as many bucks getting killed every year, but they will, on average, have larger antlers and weigh more than the bucks that were killed in the past. We'll see...

[/ QUOTE ]

This is been a debate a hunting buddy and I have had for some time...I don't feel its all genetics.. Nutrition is very important as well...I hunt in Coryell County and this is the first year it is under AR...Here is a article that shed some light on this issue for my buddy...But like you said Tex. Time will tell and we will see..

The study is an age-old controversy that has, so far, evaded being solved by even the best whitetail biologists in the country. Future antler growth of white-tailed deer that have spike antlers as yearlings versus yearlings with three or more points as their first set of antlers, has been a particular point of contention among deer hunters and managers for many years. Results of various studies on captive whitetails have produced recommendations ranging from removing all spike antlered yearlings as inferior individuals to complete protection of all yearling deer no matter the amount of antler growth in their first year. Inferior, in this case, refers to an animal that has less potential for future antler growth than other members of the same age group do.

In trying to grow the highest quality animals, only the animals believed to have the greatest potential for good antler production are desired. If an antler type with low growth potential can be identified at an early age, intuitively it would seem a good idea to remove those animals before they make a substantial contribution to the breeding population. The genetics for poor-quality antlers would not be sustained in the population. The question is, can this really be done?

Over the years, numerous studies have been conducted on the predictability of antler growth in whitetails. Results of the two most well known studies seem to conflict. Studies at the Kerr Wildlife Management Area by Texas Parks and Wildlife Department personnel suggested that spikes on yearling whitetails may be an antler type with low potential for antler growth at maturity. Thus, their recommendation is to cull spikes as a management tool to increase average antler size of bucks in that age group as they grow.

At the other end of the spectrum is a well known study done by Dr. Harry Jacobson at Mississippi State University. Dr. Jacobson asserted spike antlers on yearling bucks could be related to many factors including age (when during the fawning season a deer is born) and nutrition. Results of

the Mississippi State study indicate spike antlers could not be used reliably to judge antler growth potential. Therefore, culling of yearling bucks based on antler criteria would have little positive impact on average

antler quality in the future deer herd and would simply result in fewer bucks available for hunting.

A primary drawback in both studies is that they were conducted with captive deer. It often is difficult to take results from confined animals with a known history and fed a high-quality diet and apply those results to animals born and raised under a wide variety of range and management conditions. Research similar to that conducted on captive deer needs to be done on a larger scale with free-ranging deer populations similar to the ones we hunt.

While that sounds great on paper, studies of this nature are not easy. One of the biggest problems in studying free-ranging deer is being able to positively identify a large number of known-age animals. Also, you have to be able to handle the animals in a manner where measurements can be taken from the same deer from one year to the next. Believe me, that is no easy task.

The net gun method allows easy and safe handling of animals after they are entangled in the net. Once the animals are captured, we affix a color-coded ear tag that is individually numbered. The color of the tag tells us instantly the age of that deer when seen again in the future. We also tattoo a number corresponding to the ear tag on the inside of the ear in case the ear tag is lost. Antler measurements can be taken quickly and the animals released unharmed at the capture site. In a nutshell, that is the study and the methods we are using to accomplish this task.

By its nature, this is going to be a very long-term study. A large number of yearling bucks have to be captured so we can measure their first set of antlers. In just three years, we have captured and tagged 444 bucks over a three county area in South Texas. These same bucks will need to be

repeatedly trapped in future years to measure the antler growth. Also, we are capturing new bucks each year along with recapturing bucks caught in previous years. In this way, we will have a sample of animals that are born and raised in different years in a variety of weather and range conditions.

At this point, we are only three years into the project. As such, we are not in a position to make positive conclusions about anything. The point of this article is to introduce the research so you can see what we have found

so far and be able follow along as the study progresses.

However, even with the short time period so far, some interesting trends are being revealed. Whether these trends hold throughout the remainder of the study remains to be seen. Nonetheless, these initial results may give you something to think about next hunting season.

For many hunters, one of the most important criteria in antler quality is the number of points. So let¹s look at the development of antler points from the yearling bucks we have captured and how they progress through various ages. From our data, if you plot the number of antler points bucks

had as yearlings against the average number of points those same bucks had the next year you will see that the yearlings with the fewest antler points still had fewer points as 2-year-olds. Yearlings with two or three points on their first set of antlers averaged about eight points as 2-year-olds. On the other end of the spectrum, yearlings with eight or nine points on their first set of antlers were 10-pointers on average the next year. The middle group, yearlings with four to seven points, averaged about nine points the next year. On the surface this appears to support the contention that spike-antlered deer may be inferior and on average will never produce the kind of antlers that multi-pointed yearlings will.

However, remember these are really young deer with a lot of growing left to do. Another way of looking at the data is to compare the amount of growth each group put into antlers their second season. If you plot the number of antler points that bucks had as yearlings against the percent of antler growth change in their second set of antlers, there appears to be somewhat of a different story. The little guys were kicking butt by the next year. Much more energy appeared to be expended toward growing larger antlers by yearlings that started small. A yearling that starts with nine points and goes to 10 the next year is a small change. However, going from a spike to an 8-pointer is a tremendous change. Still, a 10-pointer is better than an 8-pointer, right? If a yearling started with spikes or three points and only averaged about eight points the next year, that¹s still smaller than yearlings that started with eight or nine points and averaged 10 points on their second set of antlers. It doesn't matter how much energy they put into antler growth if they¹re still smaller. Is there some credence to the claim that small-antlered yearlings will never be as good as yearlings that start with a better set of antlers?

Let's fast-forward to year three and compare the average antler points those same yearlings had on their third set of antlers. If you plot the number of antler points that bucks had as yearlings against the average

number of points those same bucks had as three-year-olds you will see that the yearlings with few antler points have caught up. Yearlings that started with spikes averaged just as many points as yearlings that had many more points on their first set of antlers. There are minor differences in the average number of antler points as three-year-olds, but basically there appear to be no real differences no matter the number of points a yearling started with.

By the third year, data from our wild-trapped bucks seems to agree more with the results of Dr. Jacobson and the Mississippi State study. Yearling bucks with small antlers seemed to have just as good a chance of turning

into a good deer by their third year as the yearlings with larger antlers did.

Now, we realize there is much more than simply the number of points that make a high-quality set of antlers. However, this indicates the trends in the data we have seen to this point. As we stated earlier, this study is

still in progress and the final results may lead us in a totally different direction. However, our results in the study so far show there is no indication that the size of antlers on yearling deer is a good predictor of what a buck might grow in the future if allowed to mature.

Some other interesting aspects from the study we have found so far are that the number of spikes in a herd varies from year to year and can be affected tremendously by weather conditions - specifically rainfall. This is

especially true in drought-prone areas like south Texas. Comparing data between years on the number of spikes and 3 pointers on a single ranch where we captured bucks is quite revealing. In 2000, 23 percent of the yearling bucks were spikes. If you add in 3-pointers, 33 percent of the yearling age class had three points or less. While not a great rainfall year, it certainly was better than the next year.

In 2001, with even less rainfall, 53 percent of the yearling bucks were spikes. Again, if you add in 3-pointers, 64 percent of the yearling age class had three points or less. The number of spikes and 3 pointers

essentially doubled in one year. The genetics didn¹t change in one year, but the average antler quality of yearling bucks sure did. If you were in a program that culled spikes and 3 pointers as inferior deer, you would have lost nearly two-thirds of that age class in the low rainfall year. Think of how many bucks that would leave you to hunt in a few years.

However, we don¹t want to lead you to believe that we think culling is not a worthwhile management practice. We still contend you can change the average antler quality of a well-managed deer herd by culling bucks with inferior antler quality. However, results of this study so far support our long-standing contention that culling should be done only on the older age classes of bucks - never on the yearlings. Young bucks, especially yearlings, are just too sensitive to weather and growing conditions to give you a good idea of the kind of antlers they are capable of growing in future years.

Also, an effective culling strategy not only involves removing bucks with perceived inferior antler quality, but also includes removal of females. An adequate doe harvest allows you to control the overall population, manipulate the age structure and remove the less productive females from the herd. In the long run, there really is only a need for enough females to produce the annual crop of bucks and replacement females. Usually, this is far fewer females than many think.

Early in a management program, we feel you should remove the older age does. This results in an immediate reduction of the population and significantly lowers the average age of females left in the herd. Also,

younger does usually produce fewer fawns, so maintaining control of the population is not as difficult in the future. As time goes on, having a young doe age structure allows you to better take advantage of improving nutritional conditions and overall genetic makeup of the remaining herd. If you have been doing a good job of culling bucks, the younger does are the ones most likely to have been conceived by the higher antler quality bucks you have left to breed. Thus, the offspring potentially have higher genetic quality than their parents and are more likely to pass on those quality genetics to their offspring.

There are few issues that have created more controversy than the culling of spikes. While we still do not have the definitive answer, results of our study should increase our understanding of antler growth in free-ranging whitetails. At this point, it appears that culling of yearling deer, no matter what they produce as their first set of antlers, may not be a good idea.

[wtnhunt]

Re: Shoot or not to Shoot Spikes

[ QUOTE ]

Let's fast-forward to year three and compare the average antler points those same yearlings had on their third set of antlers. If you plot the number of antler points that bucks had as yearlings against the average

number of points those same bucks had as three-year-olds you will see that the yearlings with few antler points have caught up. Yearlings that started with spikes averaged just as many points as yearlings that had many more points on their first set of antlers. There are minor differences in the average number of antler points as three-year-olds, but basically there appear to be no real differences no matter the number of points a yearling started with.

By the third year, data from our wild-trapped bucks seems to agree more with the results of Dr. Jacobson and the Mississippi State study. Yearling bucks with small antlers seemed to have just as good a chance of turning

into a good deer by their third year as the yearlings with larger antlers did.

Now, we realize there is much more than simply the number of points that make a high-quality set of antlers. However, this indicates the trends in the data we have seen to this point. As we stated earlier, this study is

still in progress and the final results may lead us in a totally different direction. However, our results in the study so far show there is no indication that the size of antlers on yearling deer is a good predictor of what a buck might grow in the future if allowed to mature.

Some other interesting aspects from the study we have found so far are that the number of spikes in a herd varies from year to year and can be affected tremendously by weather conditions - specifically rainfall.

[/ QUOTE ]

Very interesting read there Ken. Thanks for sharing, that pretty well goes along with what Dr Kroll said on the show I was referring to.

[Guest Bonemass]

Re: Shoot or not to Shoot Spikes

That is interesting.

Two seperate studies done in Texas on the same debate with two differnet outcomes.

[Texan_Til_I_Die]

Re: Shoot or not to Shoot Spikes

Interesting read. Who is doing the study?

My prediction is that those bucks they are watching which were spikes will, on average, eventually hit a plateau and not show significant improvement after that (see my earlier comment about the mature bucks who are 15 - 18 inch 10 points). I'm basing this on the results that range managers have been experiencing on some large South Texas ranches over the past 15 - 20 years.

BTW Snipe - I live in Gatesville, but prefer to do my hunting in West Texas. Who's place do you hunt around here?

[dogdoc]

Re: Shoot or not to Shoot Spikes

I'm not a wildlife biologist but I don't think a single hunter or even a group of hunters will be able to have ANY affect on genetic traits in free ranging deer. In closed in fenced operations--sure. Another thing to remember is that only 1/2 the genetic traits come from daddy. So in my neck of the woods the 1.5 year old spike gets a free walk. The goal is to try to base your harvest on age and not antler size.

todd

[Strut10]

Re: Shoot or not to Shoot Spikes

Science or not, we're preserving the spikes and other junk bucks to do all the breeding in PA. It's not a question of "will it bite us in the butt?" It's a question of "how long will it take to bite us in the butt?"

[toddpipkin]

Re: Shoot or not to Shoot Spikes

I have seen all three parts of the study. I think these are the most relevant statements...

[ QUOTE ]

....both (previous) studies ...... were conducted with captive deer..... Research similar to that conducted on captive deer needs to be done on a larger scale with free-ranging deer populations similar to the ones we hunt.

[/ QUOTE ]

[ QUOTE ]

A large number of yearling bucks have to be captured so we can measure their first set of antlers. In just three years, we have captured and tagged 444 (wild, free-ranging) bucks over a three county area in South Texas.

[/ QUOTE ]

[ QUOTE ]

...... results ... so far.....there is no indication that the size of antlers on yearling deer is a good predictor of what a buck might grow in the future if allowed to mature.

[/ QUOTE ]

The opposite of what I believed before. But studying wild deer makes a lot more sense to me. I don't think I'll shoot any more spikes.

[LETMGROW]

Re: Shoot or not to Shoot Spikes

This controversy will probably never end. One thing I do know is this past breeding season was screwed up from the beginning. The does are just now going out of heat [ A month late ] meaning the fawns will be born a month late. Given the fact we have had an open and gentle winter with virtually no stress on the deer the does should have a good pregnancy term. A buck born late this year might just be a spike instead of a button by the time hunting season rolls around.

One thing is for sure, if you take the spike you will never know what his potential really was.

Personally I'll pass on the spikes. JMHO

[Tom2008]

Re: Shoot or not to Shoot Spikes

During the 2005 hunting season I shot a spike with one 3 inch spike and it also had a 2 7/8 inch spike. The deer had a nice body size and it also was probably 2 1/2 years old. Now there is something wrong there and that was most definatley a deer that had to be taken out. My buddy next door also took a spike the same day. His weighed atleast 20 more pounds than mine did and his had atleast 5 and 6 inch spikes. Aged probably around 2 1/2 also. If a spike walks by me while hunting he is getting taken out. My Uncle shot a spike the year before also that was nearly the same as my buddys. This year I haven't seen any spike bucks. All the deer I have seen have had fork horns to start instead. Taking out those spikes helped out the herd where I hunt a lot. We have been seeing little to no spikes and more fork horned bucks and mature looking deer.

[Guest indianahunter1]

Re: Shoot or not to Shoot Spikes

well i have past on some small 4's and a small 8 here in indiana and i pasted on some small doe's as well . i try too let the deer that are 1 to 2 yr's old past so they can grow. if i need meat i'll shoot a mature doe. if i don't see one i will take a 1 1/2 old doe or a 2 year old doe. but that's if the season on each weapon is about too end only.

[Born2Hunt]

Re: Shoot or not to Shoot Spikes

[ QUOTE ]

During the 2005 hunting season I shot a spike with one 3 inch spike and it also had a 2 7/8 inch spike. The deer had a nice body size and it also was probably 2 1/2 years old. Now there is something wrong there and that was most definatley a deer that had to be taken out. My buddy next door also took a spike the same day. His weighed atleast 20 more pounds than mine did and his had atleast 5 and 6 inch spikes. Aged probably around 2 1/2 also. If a spike walks by me while hunting he is getting taken out. My Uncle shot a spike the year before also that was nearly the same as my buddys. This year I haven't seen any spike bucks. All the deer I have seen have had fork horns to start instead. Taking out those spikes helped out the herd where I hunt a lot. We have been seeing little to no spikes and more fork horned bucks and mature looking deer.

[/ QUOTE ] Tom, you say the deer are probably 2 1/2 years of age. Do yourself a favor and have them aged to be sure. As said before due to birth dates and diet I don't believe you can judge genetics the first 1 1/2 years you have to let them go to at least 2 1/2 to get a good idea of what is going on.

[Tom2008]

Re: Shoot or not to Shoot Spikes

[ QUOTE ]

[ QUOTE ]

During the 2005 hunting season I shot a spike with one 3 inch spike and it also had a 2 7/8 inch spike. The deer had a nice body size and it also was probably 2 1/2 years old. Now there is something wrong there and that was most definatley a deer that had to be taken out. My buddy next door also took a spike the same day. His weighed atleast 20 more pounds than mine did and his had atleast 5 and 6 inch spikes. Aged probably around 2 1/2 also. If a spike walks by me while hunting he is getting taken out. My Uncle shot a spike the year before also that was nearly the same as my buddys. This year I haven't seen any spike bucks. All the deer I have seen have had fork horns to start instead. Taking out those spikes helped out the herd where I hunt a lot. We have been seeing little to no spikes and more fork horned bucks and mature looking deer.

[/ QUOTE ] Tom, you say the deer are probably 2 1/2 years of age. Do yourself a favor and have them aged to be sure. As said before due to birth dates and diet I don't believe you can judge genetics the first 1 1/2 years you have to let them go to at least 2 1/2 to get a good idea of what is going on.

[/ QUOTE ]

Thanks for the advice. I did look at a few different charts for deer teeth and aging and thats how the teeth matched up. I could be wrong, but he sure didn't seem like a 1 1/2 year old.