Guest pabowhunt Posted January 4, 2007 Report Share Posted January 4, 2007 Re: Pennsylvania Deer Population I think PGC went the wrong way with making the GMU's so large. That reduced the effectiveness of their management program. I've seen one area have no deer and 5 miles away there are many deer. As for doe tags, they do give out a lot. They should also maybe consider seperating public land tags and private ones. Maybe that'll help the public land hunters. But then maybe not, I'm sure some will complain about not being able to draw a tag. Also, lets not forget that many of the rural areas are seeing habitat reduction. I see here where I work land being cleared for buildings constantly. It's not only industrial but also residential. Hunting land is getting smaller and smaller! htephil, I appriciate what your doing for our young hunters. Anymore I love my deer hunting but it is small game that gave me a great start and sparked my interest in hunting. After reading all the replies, I wasn't to surprised to see this has become a heated debate to some. I guess I'm fortunate that I don't seem to have a problem seeing deer. I have also spoke with others that hunt the same areas, they didn't see much (at least that's what they told me). In younger days I remember seeing 20 deer in one heard, anymore I commonly see smaller herds but more of them. That was also before we changed our hunting technique. We used to drive deer all season, no longer. As I think back, why push the deer off the land we hunt... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
htephil Posted January 4, 2007 Report Share Posted January 4, 2007 Re: Pennsylvania Deer Population Thankyou , LOL...I guess as long as there's 3 deer & 2 hunters there'll be different viewpoints. God's Blessed me with 35 years(so far) of hunting all over central & western PA and 7 years as a volunteer HTE instructor. I remember the days of seeing 25 deer in a herd & tons of small game....but almost never saw turkeys/bear/coyotes/Bald eagles/ otters. Anymore I enjoy getting occassional glimpes of all the above. I appreciate the passion each of the folks posting have for our deer hunting heritage regardless of thier view, because they care about the sport. I'd enjoy sharing a campfire with you guys sometime listening to a yote chorus....about the first of Nov 07 would be good! ...remember that a glass 1/2 empty is still 1/2 full eh? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
G-Daddy Posted January 4, 2007 Report Share Posted January 4, 2007 Re: Pennsylvania Deer Population My first deer season in Fulton County was 1964. Didn't see a deer all season. Shot my first buck when I was 16 in 1965. I didn't see another buck deer until 1972. Spent the major part of the seasons between 1965 and 1972 seeing just a couple of deer per season. Now I see deer nearly every time out. Saw 6 last Saturday on a short walk on the ridge across the road from the house. I was only out about 2 hours. In my part of PA these are the "Good Old Days". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
snapper Posted January 5, 2007 Report Share Posted January 5, 2007 Re: Pennsylvania Deer Population How many folks here complaining about the herd reduction...killed a doe or two this year? The way I see it...the PGC issues so many tags...we the hunters buy them up and kill the deer. Seems to me that the doe tags get sold out every year...so either the hunters that are complaining aren't very smart or there are more hunters killing deer for the freezer and just like to have something to complain about. Bottom line...the PGC ISN'T killing the deer...hunters are! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wtnhunt Posted January 5, 2007 Report Share Posted January 5, 2007 Re: Pennsylvania Deer Population [ QUOTE ] How many folks here complaining about the herd reduction...killed a doe or two this year? [/ QUOTE ] Well, I am not in PA, but I am complaining about herd reduction here in my area of this state. Despite several opportunities, including watching 4 does, one really nice one within 80 yards, with my rifle for 30 minutes just this week one afternoon, I have not taken any does this year. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
snapper Posted January 5, 2007 Report Share Posted January 5, 2007 Re: Pennsylvania Deer Population I'm sure there are a few like you wtnhunt...but I hear folks complaining all the time...yet they take one or two does a year here in PA! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PAstringking Posted January 5, 2007 Report Share Posted January 5, 2007 Re: Pennsylvania Deer Population even though on my property we had only seen a few does while hunting...there were plenty of does while spotting at night. there was at least 3 sightings of 1 mature beast of a buck with about 11 does. i dont think that he had any competition and many of those does had to go with an inferior buck or none at all. now no one at my camp took advantage of their doe tags and ended up trophy hunting all season. along with the PGC my camp will be undergoing a strict management plan that allows for doe kills and only mature bucks to be shot. not just antler restrictions...age restrictions. penalties will be assesed if there are accidental kills. i think that the PGC knows what they are doing and all of us will eventually be happy in the end. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
buckbuster11 Posted January 5, 2007 Report Share Posted January 5, 2007 Re: Pennsylvania Deer Population [ QUOTE ] How many folks here complaining about the herd reduction...killed a doe or two this year? The way I see it...the PGC issues so many tags...we the hunters buy them up and kill the deer. Seems to me that the doe tags get sold out every year...so either the hunters that are complaining aren't very smart or there are more hunters killing deer for the freezer and just like to have something to complain about. Bottom line...the PGC ISN'T killing the deer...hunters are! [/ QUOTE ] Point taken. However it is not our job to manage the deer...it's their job. We should not have to sit down every year and figure out whether we can shoot a doe or not. They are the supposed deer experts, It's their job to issue and regulate the amount of doe tags the hunters get......and they are doing a horrible job at it currently. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wtnhunt Posted January 5, 2007 Report Share Posted January 5, 2007 Re: Pennsylvania Deer Population [ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] How many folks here complaining about the herd reduction...killed a doe or two this year? The way I see it...the PGC issues so many tags...we the hunters buy them up and kill the deer. Seems to me that the doe tags get sold out every year...so either the hunters that are complaining aren't very smart or there are more hunters killing deer for the freezer and just like to have something to complain about. Bottom line...the PGC ISN'T killing the deer...hunters are! [/ QUOTE ] Point taken. However it is not our job to manage the deer...it's their job. We should not have to sit down every year and figure out whether we can shoot a doe or not. They are the supposed deer experts, It's their job to issue and regulate the amount of doe tags the hunters get......and they are doing a horrible job at it currently. [/ QUOTE ] Unfortunately I disagree here, at least for landowners and those who want to better the herd in their area. Any landowners and persons concerned in the least bit about conservation and well being of the wildlife in their specific area should at least make an attempt to have a clue what is out there before going and whacking everything in site. Legally I could have killed about a dozen does this year. Dont know that I have seen more than 12 different does on my property this year. I am certain that I have seen more different bucks than I have different does this year. I decided before the season ever started here with a low fawn rate this year and a dramatically lower number of does around that it would not be the best thing to do to kill does like we had been doing over the past 5 or 6 years. Too many hunters in this area are killing every doe they see. The herd has been hit pretty hard in this specific area due to too many hunters coming to this area that did not used to be around here, also does not help either that the TWRA has given more liberal limits on does. I am afraid that in this specific area, if things continue on at the present rate the herd will be on its way to being eradicated. Too many hunters out there have the same mentality as you that they do not have to manage and will continue on shooting every deer they see until there are no more around deer to shoot. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LifeNRA Posted January 6, 2007 Report Share Posted January 6, 2007 Re: Pennsylvania Deer Population [ QUOTE ] I'm sure there are a few like you wtnhunt...but I hear folks complaining all the time...yet they take one or two does a year here in PA! [/ QUOTE ] Yeah and in 33 years of hunting I never took a doe until this year. First time ever taking two deer in one season. Does that make me a bad person for complaining? Because I will be the first person to say yeah, I complain about the deer numbers. But I hunt on private land, the last 2-3 years there are only a handfull of hunters on this tract, about five people total. Only deer that were taken was my six pointer and my doe, that I know of. So maybe now I am part of the problem, maybe not. The way I see it, I am not the hunter for the last 10 years shooting 3-5 deer per year. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
snapper Posted January 6, 2007 Report Share Posted January 6, 2007 Re: Pennsylvania Deer Population [ QUOTE ] However it is not our job to manage the deer...it's their job. We should not have to sit down every year and figure out whether we can shoot a doe or not. They are the supposed deer experts, It's their job to issue and regulate the amount of doe tags the hunters get......and they are doing a horrible job at it currently. [/ QUOTE ] So what your saying is....if the PCG issues 3 million doe tags...its ok for us to buy them and kill every doe we see...then blame them for seeing no deer? I understand what your saying John...its a two sided coin. They are regulating the herd and getting money. We are to regulate the herd and keep our sport thriving. We need to work together somehow. BTW John...did you kill a doe this year? [ QUOTE ] First time ever taking two deer in one season. Does that make me a bad person for complaining? Because I will be the first person to say yeah, I complain about the deer numbers. [/ QUOTE ] Nope...don't make you a bad person...just makes me a confused person. You shoot a doe for the first time even with the decline of the deer herd and you've done without a doe in the freezer for 33 years....Yet you are complaining and blaming someone else????? Not trying to start an arguement...but really, am I the only one that don't get it? I think we need to look at farmers (with crop damage tags), car/truck kills, and predator kills before we need to blame hunters for the deer numbers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doc Posted January 6, 2007 Report Share Posted January 6, 2007 Re: Pennsylvania Deer Population [ QUOTE ] However it is not our job to manage the deer...it's their job. We should not have to sit down every year and figure out whether we can shoot a doe or not. They are the supposed deer experts, It's their job to issue and regulate the amount of doe tags the hunters get......and they are doing a horrible job at it currently. [/ QUOTE ] I absolutely agree with this statement! We like to think that hunters can manage their own herd, but experience has taught us otherwise. So what is the more realistic approach....blame the hunters who have neither the experience, training or in many cases the will to self regulate themselves, or demand that the government agency paid for and charged with the responsibilty of setting proper limits, do their job? One thing that has to be kept in mind is that a majority of hunters are not educated in the ways of deer management, and for a lot of us, hunting is merely an activity of a few days out of the year. We often lose sight of the average hunter who may not really be as involved or dedicated as those on these forums. And yet we are railing about the fact that they cannot seem to be smarter than those who are trained in the field of deer management and are drawing salaries to do exactly that function. What are we saying......that these guys are not capable of doing their job and we hunters are therefore supposed to cover up their incompetence by doing the job for them? Well, if we expect a bunch of laymen, inexperienced hunters, uneducated in matters concerning deer management to actually do the job that we are paying masses of people to do, then perhaps we should just save the money and do away with that agency. Or might I suggest a slightly different approach of actually demanding that these people begin doing their job in a competent fashion with proper results. These days that may sound like a strange and unique request, but it seems logical to me and certainly makes a whole lot more sense to me than deflecting the real blame by asking hunters to make up for their refusal to do their job. Doc Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
snapper Posted January 6, 2007 Report Share Posted January 6, 2007 Re: Pennsylvania Deer Population Don't know what its like in NY Doc...but here in PA, hunting is a privledge...not a right. So until that happens (which means hunters would have to get involved) we don't have a leg to stand on to make demands. The hunters of this state don't want to get involved...mainly because the majority don't think there is a problem with the deer herd. If the majority did think there was a prob....they wouldn't be buying all the tags they can get and shoot all the deer they legally could (they aren't that ignorant). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doc Posted January 6, 2007 Report Share Posted January 6, 2007 Re: Pennsylvania Deer Population I've got news for you. Regardless of the state, everyone, hunter or not, can expect their public servants to do their job. I hope too many people haven't given up on that concept. [ QUOTE ] The hunters of this state don't want to get involved...mainly because the majority don't think there is a problem with the deer herd. If the majority did think there was a prob....they wouldn't be buying all the tags they can get and shoot all the deer they legally could (they aren't that ignorant). [/ QUOTE ] And, apparently your game commision must not feel there isn't a problem either or they wouldn't be supplying all those tags for hunters to buy and use. And yes most hunters are ignorant (notice I didn't say anything about being stupid. There is a difference you know) of all that goes into deer management because I seriously doubt if a significant percentage of them have ever received any kind of degree in wildlife management or even taken any courses in such studies. Nor should we expect them to have. That's why we pay money to have an agency schooled in such matters to handle the proper management of the deer herds. It is absolutely wrong to be railing against hunters for not doing a job that we are expecting public employees to be doing. Remember that those antlerless permits have only one origin, and it is not the hunters who print them up. If enough hunters have complete confidence in your game management agency, chances are that they will not question as to whether they should be buying and using them. If you do not have complete confidence in this agency, then it is your right and perhaps even your duty to begin asking pointed questions and trying to get credible answers that satisfy your concerns. Don't be fooled into misplacing the blame for whatever you think is going wrong with your deer management. The problem doesn't lie with your hunters, it lies with the agency that has been charged with managing that herd. Nobody else. As long as those hunters are abiding by the laws and following the mandates and restrictions of the PGC, your hunters are blameless and perhaps a closer questioning of those mandates and restrictions and the agency that issues them is in order. Doc Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wtnhunt Posted January 6, 2007 Report Share Posted January 6, 2007 Re: Pennsylvania Deer Population [ QUOTE ] They are the supposed deer experts, It's their job to issue and regulate the amount of doe tags the hunters get......and they are doing a horrible job at it currently. [/ QUOTE ] I guess in reading this I take it as that you acknowledge that your state is not properly managing the herd. I think Tennessee is not all that much different with the liberal doe limits they have implemented. I was at one time all for some rifle hunts for does, but the TWRA has gone way beyond that with allowing an excessive amount of does to be taken during the rifle seasons in most part of this state. Somehow I just dont think it very wise in acknowledging that there is a problem as such and continuing on with the mentality that it is not your problem. Not to hijack this thread, but I am kind of curious about something, maybe I should post this in the land and wildlife forum or maybe someone can answer it here. When you are allowed to kill does in areas similar to here at a rate of 4 or 5 does to every buck allowed in that specific area, how long does it take for the doe population to be exceded by the buck population. Say the buck to doe ratio was around 2 does or even if it were at 3 does to every buck with a 15-20 deer per sq mile density in an area where there are on average 10 to 15 hunters or more per sq mile? What then happens in that area when the doe population is allowed to be thinned too far? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LifeNRA Posted January 7, 2007 Report Share Posted January 7, 2007 Re: Pennsylvania Deer Population [ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] However it is not our job to manage the deer...it's their job. We should not have to sit down every year and figure out whether we can shoot a doe or not. They are the supposed deer experts, It's their job to issue and regulate the amount of doe tags the hunters get......and they are doing a horrible job at it currently. [/ QUOTE ] So what your saying is....if the PCG issues 3 million doe tags...its ok for us to buy them and kill every doe we see...then blame them for seeing no deer? I understand what your saying John...its a two sided coin. They are regulating the herd and getting money. We are to regulate the herd and keep our sport thriving. We need to work together somehow. BTW John...did you kill a doe this year? [ QUOTE ] First time ever taking two deer in one season. Does that make me a bad person for complaining? Because I will be the first person to say yeah, I complain about the deer numbers. [/ QUOTE ] Nope...don't make you a bad person...just makes me a confused person. You shoot a doe for the first time even with the decline of the deer herd and you've done without a doe in the freezer for 33 years....Yet you are complaining and blaming someone else????? Not trying to start an arguement...but really, am I the only one that don't get it? I think we need to look at farmers (with crop damage tags), car/truck kills, and predator kills before we need to blame hunters for the deer numbers. [/ QUOTE ] Yes I did kill a doe. Said that when I posted this was the first time in 33 years of hunting I ever killed a doe. Only reason I bought the doe tag was because of archery season. Been only hunting archery for two years. I even bought a second doe tag, I was going to burn it, but then thought, why not go out with my father! Never said I would use it! But it will still allow me to go out in the woods! I am not really blaming nobody but the hunters that buy the tags, myself included. But I do put most of the blame with the PGC for suppling the tags! Each area (WMU) is different. They, (the PGC) need to get off thier BUTTS and now monitor the WMU's they created! Then make adjustments to the number of tags they sell. Also, get the doe hunting away from the two weeks of buck season. Go back the way it used to be! But then thats just my opinion. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
G-Daddy Posted January 7, 2007 Report Share Posted January 7, 2007 Re: Pennsylvania Deer Population Life, Good point about buying a tag and not using it. I didn't get out for archery again this season. I intended to use my doe tag for early muzzleloader, but didn't get out for that season either. Concentrated on AR legal buck during rifle, finally got one the last day. I then was using my flintlock in an attempt to fill the tag - saw plenty of deer when I was out but haven't had a shot opportunity yet. I'll try again on Friday afternoon, but have to work on Saturday, so my tag will probably go unfilled even though I am attempting to use it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
snapper Posted January 7, 2007 Report Share Posted January 7, 2007 Re: Pennsylvania Deer Population [ QUOTE ] And, apparently your game commision must not feel there isn't a problem either or they wouldn't be supplying all those tags for hunters to buy and use. [/ QUOTE ] Your right...the PGC wants the deer herd reduced and don't see a prob. with it. [ QUOTE ] If enough hunters have complete confidence in your game management agency, chances are that they will not question as to whether they should be buying and using them. [/ QUOTE ] Thats my point...there are alot of hunters posting here and writing letters complaining about the PGC....so I'd say "no" they don't have complete confidence in the state agency. So that leads me to believe that eithere there are alot more hunter who aren't complaining and using the tags...or folks just want something to complain about. [ QUOTE ] Don't be fooled into misplacing the blame for whatever you think is going wrong with your deer management. The problem doesn't lie with your hunters, it lies with the agency that has been charged with managing that herd. Nobody else. [/ QUOTE ] Well there sure alot of PA hunters (monday morning quarterbacks) who seem to think they know better than the PGC...yet they are still buying and using antlerless tags. We will have to disagree on this one...the PGC isn't killing the deer...its the hunters who are complaining. If there are enough hunters who feel there is truely a problem...then take responibilty for his/her own actions and stop blamming someone else. If the state gov. changed speed limits to 100mph...does that mean you have to drive 100mph? If you want to drive that fast....its your choice, but don't blame the state for someone getting killed in an accident because they couldn't control their car. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doc Posted January 7, 2007 Report Share Posted January 7, 2007 Re: Pennsylvania Deer Population [ QUOTE ] there are alot of hunters posting here and writing letters complaining about the PGC....so I'd say "no" they don't have complete confidence in the state agency. So that leads me to believe that either there are alot more hunter who aren't complaining and using the tags...or folks just want something to complain about. [/ QUOTE ] Do not use this forum as any kind of official poll on hunter attitudes. I have found that most of the members here are a whole lot more dedicated toward learning game management principles than your average week-end warrior who goes out on opening day of gun season and then returns to his couch for the rest of the season. I will also say that I have heard darn few posters here complaining about herd size and then boasting about the 5 or 6 does that they shot. I have, however met up with a lot of people while hunting or through casual conversations who really don't have a clue about herd size. All they know is that the state allowed them "x" number of permits and it is almost an obligation to fill them. To them that is fulfilling their responsibility toward assisting the deer herd managers achieve their goals. Not everyone feels as obligated to make hunting their number one priority throughout the year as you and I and probably most of the members here do. And you know what?......They are perfectly within their rights to approach hunting in that fashion. Further, they should be able to feel confident that their game management agency is doing the job that they are being paid for and making the right decisions. [ QUOTE ] If the state gov. changed speed limits to 100mph...does that mean you have to drive 100mph? If you want to drive that fast....its your choice, but don't blame the state for someone getting killed in an accident because they couldn't control their car. [/ QUOTE ] This is an excellent example of the state acting in a reckless and irresponsible fashion, and if I was hit by some guy who was driving in such a LEGAL fashion with the state's legal sanctioning, I absolutely would hold some group of inept legislators responsible for allowing such an idiotic law to be passed. And I or my survivors would absolutely be working very hard to get those legislators replaced at the next election. Our government employees are suppose to be reasonable and prudent with the laws they pass, not encouraging reckless or wrong behavior. And when they are caught encouraging reckless behavior, it is up to all of us who believe that to call them to task and work very hard to see that they stop doing that. That applies to normal civil laws as well as game laws and mis-management of state resources. No you can't blame those who are behaving within legal limits. You have to blame those that are setting those limits. You have to put the blame where it rightfully belongs or the problem will never be solved. Doc Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
snapper Posted January 7, 2007 Report Share Posted January 7, 2007 Re: Pennsylvania Deer Population I was using that as an example Doc...don't think any state would pass such a law. However, the "herd reduction" seems to be reckless and irresponsible goal made by our PGC if you just read the responses here. However, only one hunter from PA who replied to this thread came back and answered my question about killing a doe. I believe there are other folks who killed a doe or two and know that I'm partly right and they are complaining about a problem that they helped contributed to. Call it stupid, ignorant...whatever, very few folks are dumb enough to say..."There are no does in PA" then go shoot a doe and think they've helped the problem because its what the PGC wants! We are beating a dead horse here...I know of land that has been posted long before the AR and HR and the folks who hunt it don't take any does (never have). Guess what...they are complaining about not seeing any "nice" bucks that Gary Alt promised...however, they have very large herd of does! Can't please everyone all the time. I will say it one more time....however the deer dies is how the herd is getting reduced. Not by some law maker sitting in an office!!!! Moving on! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LifeNRA Posted January 7, 2007 Report Share Posted January 7, 2007 Re: Pennsylvania Deer Population [ QUOTE ] However, only one hunter from PA who replied to this thread came back and answered my question about killing a doe. I believe there are other folks who killed a doe or two and know that I'm partly right and they are complaining about a problem that they helped contributed to. Call it stupid, ignorant...whatever, very few folks are dumb enough to say..."There are no does in PA" then go shoot a doe and think they've helped the problem because its what the PGC wants! [/ QUOTE ] So I must be stupid and ignorant because I complain about the numbers of tags the PGC sells. Yeah and for killing the first doe in 33 years! I was never a big doe hunter to begin with, maybe Ill just burn every doe tag I get my hands on. Excuse me for wanting to extend my deer hunting with my father before he can never hunt again. But yes you are partly right Snap. But I feel they still need to lower the limit of tags they sell. It still lies with the PGC. Because they will sell out whatever number tags they want too. So if they increase or decrease that number, PA hunters will still buy them and use them! But with the chance of no licence increase for thier funds that they need, I highly doubt they will lower them tag numbers anytime soon! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doc Posted January 8, 2007 Report Share Posted January 8, 2007 Re: Pennsylvania Deer Population That's funny, you could have the same debate right here in NY as well. The replies are almost identical to things that I have heard from New Yorkers. We have been undergoing herd reduction for quite a few years now until finally they went way too far in many (perhaps most) areas. The one thing that has impacted our DEC's actions are the fact that targets are established through something we call Citizen's Task Forces in each of the wildlife management units. These CFT's are comprised of hunters and a whole array of anti-deer interests (foresters,nurserymen, farmers, traffic accident interests, etc.). Is there such a system involved in PA harvest targets? Here in NY the DEC is giving the anti-deer elements a much larger say in deer management than ever before and that seems to coincide with the more aggressive permit issuance. Perhaps these interests are somehow getting a larger percent of attention in PA these days. Any thoughts? Doc Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
snapper Posted January 8, 2007 Report Share Posted January 8, 2007 Re: Pennsylvania Deer Population [ QUOTE ] So I must be stupid and ignorant because I complain about the numbers of tags the PGC sells. [/ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] But yes you are partly right Snap. [/ QUOTE ] No your not stupid or ignorant because you agreed that I'm partly right in that by shooting a doe...you haven't helped the problem that your complaining about. Now if you would have admited to shooting a doe and said its "all" the PGC fault...then... Look, the only point that I'm trying to make is...its like a loaded gun...if no one touches it...it can't be blamed for the murder. By blaming the PGC for the herd reduction...well in my mind...thats like blaming the gun manufactures for all the murders in a city. The gun manf. are making guns to make money...how we choose to use those guns is our choice. The PGC sells doe tags (reguardless of the number they sell) how we choose to use those tags is our choice...get me? [ QUOTE ] Excuse me for wanting to extend my deer hunting with my father before he can never hunt again. [/ QUOTE ] Sorry if I touched a nerve...that wasn't my intent. I don't fault you for extending your season to spend time with your father. However, you don't have to shoot a doe to spend quailty time with him in the outdoors. I'm also not complaining about the size of the deer herd...I shot a buck and two does last year and this year. Last years buck is on the wall and this years buck is at the taxidermist. I'm not stupid enough to believe that the deer herd is the same everywhere...but I also don't think its as bad as some hunters let on. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LifeNRA Posted January 9, 2007 Report Share Posted January 9, 2007 Re: Pennsylvania Deer Population You see Snap, thats the difference between your area, and my area. 4C is getting hammered bad. Yes I didnt help the problem by taking that doe, but it gave me time spent with my father. Yes I know I didnt have to shoot it! But whether or not the PGC sells 5,000 tags or 500,000 tags, they will sell out! I would rather see the 5,000 tags be offered. Thats my point! Not to do this in every area, just the areas that are low in deer counts to help. Sell a lower number of tags for a few years to get the deer numbers back up. But again, only in the areas where they know, and they do know, where the bad deer numbers are! In all my years hunting, 33 years, I have never heard so many deer hunters complain like this! I not talking about the hunters here on the net either! Here again, I would be ALL FOR THEIR LICENSE INCREASE the PGC wants, if they lower the number of doe tags they sell!!! Kind of like, give a little, and get a little! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doc Posted January 9, 2007 Report Share Posted January 9, 2007 Re: Pennsylvania Deer Population It seems like you have two choices. One is to try to get the PGC to see the error of their ways and persuade them to, where necessary, knock down the number of permits they are issuing. The other is to try to convince the entire hunting population to disregard the thoughts of the PGC regarding herd reduction and and work independant of any actual science by going off and doing their own thing. Given the history of convincing all the hunters to voluntarily do anything, which course of action do you think is more likely to happen? If you want to wait decades and expend enough money in public service ads, you might be able to effect a cultural change among all hunters. Of course you might have a few huge areas with the deer completely eliminated by then. Also bear in mind that when you rely on hunters to think in a certain way and voluntarily restrict their harvests, seldom do you get any unanimous agreement on where this needs to be done and to what extent. This sounds like a recipe for some pretty chaotic management. The other choice of leaning on the PGC and demanding that they actually put some management back in the term "deer management" I suspect would be the more effective approach. Plus you would get the added long-term advantage of getting an agency that actually earns their keep and knows what they are doing. I really cannot understand this attitude that the PGC (or in our case the DEC) can do no wrong and should be forgiven everything simply because they are not doing the actual killing but instead are chief enablers in over-harvests due to putting no thought or science into their permit issuing. That idea simply is mind-blowing. Personally, I think the function of wildlife management is a lot more important than something that can be left to the discretion of untrained individuals. I thought that was the main reason for establishing these government entities in the first place. Ah, but then that's just me looking in. Maybe your PGC is so messed up that it cannot be saved. Maybe there are bigger forces at work that I am not aware of. Perhaps your hunters are so disorganized that they are powerless to effect change within a government agency. I really don't know. I can only say that here in NY we have faced the same exact situation, and have complained just as loudly and have seen some relief in the number of permits being issued in some of the more hard-hit areas. It's not perfect by any means and there is a long way to go, but at least we have gotten some positive response and are not counting on the chaos of relying on actions of each individual hunter running off in different directions trying to apply their own personal brand of harvest management. Doc Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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