snapper Posted January 9, 2007 Report Share Posted January 9, 2007 Re: Pennsylvania Deer Population [ QUOTE ] One is to try to get the PGC to see the error of their ways and persuade them to, where necessary, knock down the number of permits they are issuing. [/ QUOTE ] Maybe my way of thinking is all wrong...but, if you were selling a product (any old product) and you were selling almost a million every year to a crowd of about a million....how would you take a few folks seriously when they say your selling too many? My line of thinking would tell me that the majority of my crowd don't have issues with me selling this many. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
horst Posted January 10, 2007 Report Share Posted January 10, 2007 Re: Pennsylvania Deer Population i dont know the whole situation there in PA but as far as the hunter vs game management agency goes I cant help but agree with Doc.I reember when they implemented the antler restrictions there.A lot of opposition was raised to the idea but they passed it.So now you got the same amount of hunters, same number of tags, but have taken a large percentage of the legal deer out of the picture when they cant shoot smaller bucks.Stands to reason more does are going to get killed as a result.Expecting hunters to now decide not to shoot another large percentage of the legal deer in the state is nuts.No does, no small bucks, whats everyone going to hunt? If theres a problem with the deer numbers being low it makes more sense to expect the PGC to do thier job and lower the number of tags available rather then sit back and watch the herd get decimated for the sake of the revenue the tags create. Deer managements not a product, its thier job to know whats going on with the deer herd and manage it accordingly.The fact thier selling a million tags a year doesnt mean thier doing that job, it just means they can get away with it and not be held accountable for the consequences. If I was running a company producing something and mismanaged it to the point where the customers werent happy how long would I hold that job once the complaints started rolling in? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doc Posted January 10, 2007 Report Share Posted January 10, 2007 Re: Pennsylvania Deer Population [ QUOTE ] Deer managements not a product, its thier job to know whats going on with the deer herd and manage it accordingly.The fact thier selling a million tags a year doesnt mean thier doing that job, it just means they can get away with it and not be held accountable for the consequences. [/ QUOTE ] I absolutely couldn't have said it better, and as long as we continue to blame the hunters, that situation will never change. Doc Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
snapper Posted January 14, 2007 Report Share Posted January 14, 2007 Re: Pennsylvania Deer Population [ QUOTE ] If I was running a company producing something and mismanaged it to the point where the customers werent happy how long would I hold that job once the complaints started rolling in? [/ QUOTE ] Thats my point also horst....I think its either a very small group complaining...or folks just like to complain. Complaints maybe rolling in...but you are still selling the product...if could produce more...that surplus would also sell. So how do you take the small amount of complaining seriously? I still don't put all the blame on the PGC...they aren't the ones shooting the deer...PERIOD! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LifeNRA Posted January 14, 2007 Report Share Posted January 14, 2007 Re: Pennsylvania Deer Population [ QUOTE ] I still don't put all the blame on the PGC...they aren't the ones shooting the deer...PERIOD! [/ QUOTE ] LOL! Yeah and if the PGC would offer less tags there be more deer too...PERIOD! Because the hunters in this state then would not get all the tags they offer now! There just thinking about when they can go hunting! Thats why I blame the PGC, because its just more money for them! Their thinking about DOLLARS, not deer. With no license increase they will loose money. I understand what your saying snap, about the the hunters pulling the trigger! In all my life I never seen a problem with a hunter in this state taking ONE buck and ONE doe. But to take 8-10 deer per year depending on area and maybe DMAP tags!?!?!?!? I bought two doe tags this year. Yeah I used one, but saved the other! So I saved one doe from my area! I will continue to do so from now on too! Just so that another hunter cant shoot one! Sounds like a terrible idea, but I am at a point where I dont care anymore! Maybe, just maybe Ill buy both of them and not use any of them!!! All the PGC needs to do is start offering a lower limit amount of doe tags...PERIOD! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
snapper Posted January 14, 2007 Report Share Posted January 14, 2007 Re: Pennsylvania Deer Population Your right Life...if there were less tags...the hunters would kill less. So again, its the hunters who determine the number of deer killed. I'm not defending the PGC...making money is another topic that upsets me. Buying "game" lands only to have it stipped for coal and then sell gas rights...so they make money off the timber, coal, and gas...and we hunters are left with a field. One question I have though....is where in this state other than the subs of Pittsburgh and Philly can you get 8-10 tags for doe? I don't think anyone is really complaining about the deer herds there...more in the mountain area. Here is what we agree on...1. the PGC is in it for the money (or so it seems). 2. Alot of hunters would like to see more deer. So, what can we do...1. buy all the tags we can, and shoot all the deer we can. Don't see how that helps "us"...but it helps the PGC make money. 2. Stop shooting the deer...that helps us and the PGC. The PGC claims they are hurting for funds...so if we continue to buy the tags, but don't kill anything...its a win win correct? Or we can just complain and do nothing and blame the PGC. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doc Posted January 14, 2007 Report Share Posted January 14, 2007 Re: Pennsylvania Deer Population [ QUOTE ] So, what can we do...1. buy all the tags we can, and shoot all the deer we can. Don't see how that helps "us"...but it helps the PGC make money. 2. Stop shooting the deer...that helps us and the PGC. The PGC claims they are hurting for funds...so if we continue to buy the tags, but don't kill anything...its a win win correct? Or we can just complain and do nothing and blame the PGC. [/ QUOTE ] Or........ 3. Start applying pressure through letters to the editor campaigns or coaxing whatever hunting organizations that you belong to to start leaning on the PGC (or in our case the DEC), in a very public way to start doing their job. I refuse to believe that we here in NY or you down there in PA have to give up on our game management public servants and start trying to do their jobs ourselves. Let's not be so quick to throw in the towel just yet. In theory at least, they still work for the public. I still would prefer that deer harvests be based on science and research, rather than each hunters "gut-feel". Doc Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
snapper Posted January 14, 2007 Report Share Posted January 14, 2007 Re: Pennsylvania Deer Population [ QUOTE ] In theory at least, they still work for the public. I still would prefer that deer harvests be based on science and research, rather than each hunters "gut-feel". [/ QUOTE ] "In theory"....lol I agree, I would love to see the deer kills based on science and research...but who is doing that? Your saying for the hunters not to do the managing...however, it seems this thread started because of complaints of the deer herd? I can't compare PA to NY because I've never hunted there. There is no way.....I'll say it again....NO WAY to mange this state as a whole. Too much private land, mountain land, farm land etc... There just isn't enough wildlife conservation officers in the field to do an effective job. So it comes back to knows whats right...the PGC or the hunters. [ QUOTE ] Let's not be so quick to throw in the towel just yet. [/ QUOTE ] Just the opposite...not throwing in the towel...taking control of the towel. If we hunters think we can do better managing the herd...then we have to take matters in our own hands. If they indeed work for us...then they will see who runs the show if we did what we have to make us happy. Of course, if the deer herd started to get bigger again....the PGC would just release some more coyotes and mountain lions to thin the herd. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
horst Posted January 14, 2007 Report Share Posted January 14, 2007 Re: Pennsylvania Deer Population #4- They could lower the number of doe tags sold, raise the price of the remaining licenses a buck and everyone could go home happy, hunters would have more deer, The PGC would be doing its job, and the increase in cost would make up for the revenue lost due to license decreases.Dont know how accurate any of these figures are but here goes.From the PGC websight. Right now it looks like theres 859,000 antlerless tags available in your state.Looks like antlerless tags are $6 a piece.They lose $120,000 in revenue if they cut back 20,000 tags.That leaves 839,000 tags available.Raise em a dollar a tag and theyre making more then they would have originally by a long shot.Heck raise em 50 cents a pop and your still looking at $419,500 in additional revenue.The increase isnt that big, less then a cup of coffee costs and you have 20,000 extra deer running around that year.They have fawns in the spring you got 40 or 50,000 more deer the next season to shoot. Considering in a couple areas tags didnt sell out and there was around 9000 left over the difference hunters would notice in tags issues is negligible.After a couple years you got more money, more deer then before and it hardly effects anyone.I am so smart Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LifeNRA Posted January 14, 2007 Report Share Posted January 14, 2007 Re: Pennsylvania Deer Population [ QUOTE ] One question I have though....is where in this state other than the subs of Pittsburgh and Philly can you get 8-10 tags for doe? [/ QUOTE ] Go to any area that has DMAP tags, I am quite sure to can buy what you want! I refuse to use any DMAP tags. [ QUOTE ] 2. Stop shooting the deer...that helps us and the PGC. The PGC claims they are hurting for funds...so if we continue to buy the tags, but don't kill anything...its a win win correct? [/ QUOTE ] Yes & no! Because after awhile the PGC will just increase the number of tags they want to sell, to kill the number of deer they want, and also get their funds. So they win, we lose! Like I said I would agree to their increase, only if they reduce the doe tags. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LifeNRA Posted January 14, 2007 Report Share Posted January 14, 2007 Re: Pennsylvania Deer Population [ QUOTE ] #4- They could lower the number of doe tags sold, raise the price of the remaining licenses a buck and everyone could go home happy, hunters would have more deer, The PGC would be doing its job, and the increase in cost would make up for the revenue lost due to license decreases.Dont know how accurate any of these figures are but here goes.From the PGC websight. [/ QUOTE ] BINGO! Everybody wins!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doc Posted January 15, 2007 Report Share Posted January 15, 2007 Re: Pennsylvania Deer Population [ QUOTE ] There is no way.....I'll say it again....NO WAY to mange this state as a whole. Too much private land, mountain land, farm land etc... There just isn't enough wildlife conservation officers in the field to do an effective job. So it comes back to knows whats right...the PGC or the hunters. [/ QUOTE ] By the sound of it, it seems to me that the landowners and hunters aren't doing much of a management job either. My feeling is that there is no way that you will ever get them to do it either. Probably the best solution would be for the PGC to learn how to use the hunters as a potential free resource for some of their data. At a minimum, they should be devising some scheme for at least verifying their statistical management tactics. If they could figure out a good reliable way of doing that perhaps their numbers and targets might get a bit more credible. What do you think? Doc Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
horst Posted January 15, 2007 Report Share Posted January 15, 2007 Re: Pennsylvania Deer Population [ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] #4- They could lower the number of doe tags sold, raise the price of the remaining licenses a buck and everyone could go home happy, hunters would have more deer, The PGC would be doing its job, and the increase in cost would make up for the revenue lost due to license decreases.Dont know how accurate any of these figures are but here goes.From the PGC websight. [/ QUOTE ] BINGO! Everybody wins!!! [/ QUOTE ] I actually cant believe the doe tags are that cheap there.We gotta pay regular price for our first one at 26$ a pop, then any extras are 11$ a piece.Plus 26$ for our either sex tag to kill a buck for bow and 26$ to kill a buck with gun . And we sell out on doe tags most every year at that price Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
snapper Posted January 15, 2007 Report Share Posted January 15, 2007 Re: Pennsylvania Deer Population [ QUOTE ] By the sound of it, it seems to me that the landowners and hunters aren't doing much of a management job either. My feeling is that there is no way that you will ever get them to do it either. [/ QUOTE ] Your right...because everyone thinks their idea is better than the next. Hard to manage land that is posted and don't allow hunting. Game comm. strips the "hunters" land for coal and wonders why the deer move to private land. There is one key factor that we haven't hit on...the PGC don't want the deer numbers back the way they were...so if they are making money AND getting what they want...how do you change things? I will say this...I'm NOT in favor of any fee increase. Lets see...we are willing to give them more money for less? We are willing to give them more money to do a job we don't think they can do anyway? I'm sorry, but I sure the heck wouldn't get a raise for not doing my job correctly! We can discuss this until we are blue in the face...and nothing will ever change. I remember not to long ago folks complaining because they sent for an anterless tag and didn't get any...now there is more and folks are complaining. I remember hearing hunters complaining about not enough time to spend in the woods to kill a deer...now we have two weeks of rifle to kill a doe...early muzzleloader, longer archery etc... and now we've killed too many deer? The same folks are crying that they want to hunt on Sundays..........is it just me or am I not getting this?? No matter what happens...there will be groups/orgs. complaining about what the PGC does. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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