For all NYS hunters

[NYBUCK]

Ken - First let me welcome you to the Realtree forums. Second that is a very well written letter and agree with you 100%. I like the structure and the antler restrictions. I am not sure how it will be taking by others. Most people that I talk to, archery, muzzleloaders and gun hunters do not like the new proposals by the state. I hope we have enough people speak up and can implement something like your proposal. Keep posting and spreading the word.

[NY911Bowhunter]

Re: For all NYS hunters

Ken,

I like your views.........

alot. Seems well thought out. Lampliters post makes me a little mad though - however we should expect that - I am sure DEC is inundated with letters.

[Doc]

Re: For all NYS hunters

Ken-

Yeah......I know........everybody's a critic. Well, please take this reply in the constructive vein that it is intended.

First of all, the letter is too long and is not likely to be read. I think I would have broken all the different subjects up into separate letters. I suspect that what happens with these kinds of letters is that they are scanned for content and one-word entries are probably entered into a database somewhere. For example, when they run across "Antler Restrictions", there will be a notation in some database that adds your opinion as being "in favor". I'm sure that given the amount of responses that they are likely to get on these subjects, they won't really be able to do much more than that. The background and supporting reasoning is probably wasted on them. Unless you can condense supporting info into a few very short sentences, they probably will not read those parts at all.

As someone has already pointed out, if you get any response at all, it will probably be some kind of generic form letter that does not really address any of your concerns. Let us know if you get anything more detailed than that.

One theme that I have seen in your letter and many other replies here on this forum is about some form of "fair" addition of an early muzzleloader season. In your case, it was a suggestion for the addition of a muzzleloading season that would replace a portion of the regular gun season. Let me assure you that the shotgunners are not going to sit still for that, nor should they. The muzzleloader, in terms of accuracy and effective range is a much superior weapon to the shotgun, and there is nothing about that weapon that warrants any special treatment to early seasons, any more than could be claimed by a shotgunner. The DEC already knows this and that is why that suggestion will not be seriously considered. You will notice that when they proposed this special season, the people that they upset were the much less numerous and poorly organized bowhunters. They knew there was no possibility that they would be intruding on the regular gun season. Besides, their main motivation with this proposal is to be able to take more does. There is no way that they would sacrifice even a week of regular gun season. The fact is, that we must stand uncompromising on the position that there is absolutely no justification for a special muzzleloader season........none whatsoever!

I totally agree with most of your other points and I am glad that you are taking the time to get involved. This is something that we all must do.

Doc

[rossman]

Re: For all NYS hunters

what will make the real difference? Going to the meetings!!! We need to get together and go shut this thing down. Rememberl, powere in numbers!!!!

We should plan a pre-meet meeting to discuss a final stand on what should be done. If everyone has their own idea then it probably will not matter!!!! But if we can all agree on one stance and go fight for it, then maybe we can win!!!!

[BuckNrut]

Re: For all NYS hunters

Kotten makes a point that has not been discussed much here, but is quite relative. I too have had people tell me they are already planning on shooting a buck during the ML (antlerless only) season.

This early season format may not be such a good idea afterall.

[Doc]

Re: For all NYS hunters

Here is the letter that I am planning on sending in. Give it a good ol' fashion critique and let me know if you see any flaws.

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I have reviewed the recent proposals for big game hunting season changes and have found only one proposal that I must object to.

For decades, it has been recognized that a relatively undisturbed deer herd is essential for bowhunters to have any chance of success. Unlike the bow, which is a very close range weapon, there are no features of a muzzleloader that require undisturbed deer for the effectiveness of the weapon. Also, unlike a bow, there is nothing about a muzzleloader that is functionally inferior to a shotgun in terms of range and accuracy that would justify the need for an early season.

Further, I believe that there is adequate reason to believe that during the proposed early muzzleloader season, large numbers of archers as well as shotgun hunters will be taking up muzzleloaders, causing heavy gun pressure, similar to that of the traditional gun season. That will make the later half of the early bow season an exercise in futility.

For these reasons, I would like to register my opposition to the proposed early muzzleloader season.

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Of course the proper greetings and signature will be added as soon as I decide exactly who all to send it to.

Doc

[RTF]

Re: For all NYS hunters

I cant argue with a neighbor I never met. I live and hunt just outside of Cooperstown NY. Otsego county has been home to me for a long time. Good letter.

[Doc]

Re: For all NYS hunters

[ QUOTE ]

Also, I think the early antlerless ML season is a good idea. As kotten proposed for the early archery to be antlerless only because the does are not bred yet, the same is true for the early ML season. Burn up some doe tags before the bucks waste their energy breeding does that aren't going to survive anyway.

[/ QUOTE ]

The way I'm hearing it on this forum and others, the NY does have been whaled on too much already. I don't see any reason to be looking for new ways to eliminate the herd. The DEC is doing just fine with the tools that they have right now.

Doc

[Turkeygirl]

Re: For all NYS hunters

My family hunts for meat, not the rack so if the DEC in the future did put out antler restrictions, it would give those of us who shoto deer strictly to fill the freezer and feed ourselves through the winter a more difficult chance to do so, especially if like in my WMU where they gave out only 1 DMP instead of the 2 before. Not that antler restrictions is bad thing but I agree with Doc.

[Doc]

Re: For all NYS hunters

[ QUOTE ]

You wouldn't be adding any extra tags though, right?

[/ QUOTE ]

No, you're right. At least I hope they won't be handing out additional tags for that season. But my point is that the muzzleloader tags would be far easier and more likely to get filled in an early season rather than the traditional late muzzleloading season, thereby increasing the doe take. At least that's what the DEC is hoping. One of the reasons that they stated for the antlerless early muzzleloader season was to help in the doe take. I have heard that they consider bowhunters to be just "buck hunters" and not real effective in harvesting does.

Doc

[RangerClay]

Re: For all NYS hunters

I agree with T-girl. The only red meat in my house is venison. I need to put 3 deer in the freezer every year not pick and choose.

Ranger

[Doc]

Re: For all NYS hunters

[ QUOTE ]

As far as antler restrictions go, you may not see as many legal bucks the first year or two after the restrictions were placed, but after that, the bucks that you do see (most of them) will be legal.

[/ QUOTE ]

As far as antler restrictions are concerned, I will start worrying about them as soon as the DEC proves that it can even manage the deer population. So far their management techniques have resulted in areas of extremes.......either too many or too few......no areas just right. That's not management! What on earth makes anyone think that AR would be administered correctly.

By the way, if you want to see more bucks, we had better start backing off on removing does. Where do you think bucks come from?

Doc

[Doc]

Re: For all NYS hunters

When the population is high and in danger of overwhelming their habitat, shooting does is exactly the right thing to do. Believe me, we know it works as far as cutting down the herd. However, when it is obvious that the herd has been overhunted, it seems rather foolish to be complaining about the scarcity of deer and then shooting every last one that you see. There has been a statement made that is bought into by almost every hunter, that is just as wrong as can be. That statement is:"shooting does promotes a healthy herd". That is just absolutely false and is true only if the herd numbers are near or above the carrying capacity of the habitat. Under any other circumstances, there is nothing healthy or unhealthy about shooting does. If the herd is in balance with their habitat, health and shooting does are unrelated items. It does not make the herd any healthier to have habitat going to waste.

Doc

[Doc]

Re: For all NYS hunters

Kotten-

It sounds like you really believe those numbers that the DEC is putting out. Did you ask the biologist just how often they do a survey across the state to ascertain the carrying capacity of every hill and valley in the state? Did you ask him when the last survey of any sort was done statewide. Did you ask him how small of a sampling they use for such calculations? Did you ask him exactly how the state comes up with the magical number of 900,000? Did you ask him how many assumptions that are based on other series of assumptions are used to come up with that number? Did you ask him how they can ascertain proper management in Naples, new york if they are applying statewide average population numbers to statewide average habitats? Was he saying that the state has a homogenious farmland habitat, woodland habitat, and deer density? No, he probably referred to the WMU's, which is almost as ridiculous an exercise in averaging numbers as doing it on a state wide basis.

I hate to say it, but the DEC has lost all credibility in my eyes. They are great at laying out a whole bunch of numbers, but the validity of those numbers are definitely in question. I'm sure they have reams of statistics to back up each number, but are they worth the paper their printed on? That's the question.

Doc

[NYBUCK]

Re: For all NYS hunters

Lampliter, Don't be too hard on him. I beleive he is a little frustrated like we all are. I can understand his point. I have talked to many who disagree with the new proposals but I know they will not be around or open there mouth when push comes to shove. They guys complain the most yet they dont do anything about it. I think we all need to get more people to these meetings and more to write letters. I know I will be there and do what ever I can.

[Doc]

Re: For all NYS hunters

[ QUOTE ]

Doc - They do a deer herd count every year. Each WMU has a citizens task force who reports on the current herd within their WMU.

[/ QUOTE ]

Kotten-

I absolutely do not believe that anyone is canvassing the entire WMU counting deer. Sorry, but I'll have to have that statement proven to me. That absolutely does not happen!

Doc

[Doc]

Re: For all NYS hunters

Adkhunter-

On the DEC page they have a blurb about their Citizen Task Force. http://www.dec.state.ny.us/website/dfwmr/wildlife/deer/ctfupdate.html

Toward the bottom they generically list all the "stakeholders" (not by name) who comprise these task forces. All the way at the bottom is a link to a table that shows the results of these task forces.

It is a total joke! Many of the task forces have not met since the early 90's. (An awful lot has changed in the last decade as far as populations and habitat.) Our particular WMU has never formed a task force at all. If you look at the various disciplines that make up the task force, you can readily see that the anti-deer representatives heavily out-weigh the pro-deer stakeholders. I suspect that the results and conclusions likely reflect that biased make-up of the force. Of course a strong personality representing one faction or the other could easily sway the results since they must come up with a concensus before the results are used.

Since I have never participated, I can only speculate how these meetings go, but just looking at the listing of stakeholders, it looks a bit biased to me. Actually, I never even knew about this activity until a couple of weeks ago when I stumbled onto the page on their website. It's not an activity that they advertise a whole lot.

As far as knowing any participants, I don't know any either. Of course since a task force was never formed in our WMU, I guess it probably is not too likely that I would. But I get the impression that the groups are not real large, so the decisions are most likely being made by a very few people.

Doc

[NYBUCK]

Re: For all NYS hunters

This is what bothers me, I have never heard of this "so called task force" just as I am scared that I will never hear where the meetings will be and when for the upcoming proposals for next year. I would love to be on that task force.

[rossman]

Re: For all NYS hunters

What I don't understand is, lot's of hunters I talked to this year have seen less deer than in years past, and even les bucks. Putting a muzzleloading season in the middle of bow is just an excuse. The guy that proposed it is probably a muzzleloader.

Who ever complains about seeing too many deer anyway. The only problem is the doe to buck ratio. It is unhealthy for the herd.

Also, how many hunters will stick to shooting doe's during the early muzzleloader season. i have heard from numerous people, that if they see a monster, they will shoot it. In years past, if they have that same monster in bow range at that exact time of year, they would legally be able to shoot it. But not now!!!! I hunt by the book, but how could you blame someone for shooting a monster at this time. I would blame the DEC for changing NY's hunting structure for the worse.

If NY's DEC makes these changes. There will be lots of bucks killed during this season. Especially those who can drag the buck back to their house and cut it up. I hate poachers and I will never be one, but many hunters will poach bucks during this early season. Eliminating the opportunity for us, law abiding hunters, the chance to score on a nice buck legally!!!!!

NY's DEC has made me embarassed to be a hunter in NY state!!!!!

[Doc]

Re: For all NYS hunters

Where on earth did you find that information. I haven't heard a thing so far. I'm afraid I am going to miss the meetings in our area. We are getting the normal silent treatment here.

I would have expected that they would have published a schedule with times, dates and locations on their web-site, But I haven't seen anything there yet.

Doc

[rossman]

Re: For all NYS hunters

When is the region 6 meetings?

[RangerClay]

Re: For all NYS hunters

[ QUOTE ]

When is the region 6 meetings?

[/ QUOTE ]

Ditto?

[longislandhunter]

Re: For all NYS hunters

I don't have problem with antler restrictions, I think it's a good idea, however if they do enact such restrictions it will be for the most part uninforcible due to the small numbers of DEC enforcement personnel available for patrol and enforcement. While most hunters are responsible, ethical sportsman who obey the game laws, there is unfortunately a large number of hunters who feel no need to obey the game laws and shoot animals and do not report them, shoot animals that they do not posses tags for, and bait animals and/or shoot them at night. I know this from personal experience as enforcement of such laws is my occupation and to many times during the hunting season I encounter such people and such situations. Radically changing the game laws of New York State could be a positive thing, however in order to be successful you must provide the DEC and other agencies with the manpower and resources to monitor and enforce these new regulations.