muggs Posted February 2, 2007 Author Report Share Posted February 2, 2007 Re: Iran found to be supply Iraqi militias [ QUOTE ] As a realist, dont know how you could ignore this muggs. Not like these terrorists have hidden their intents. Not like they have not attempted to turn their hatred for us into a holy war and not like they have not called on all muslims to become involved in this jihad. From a realistic standpoint you would have to be blind not to see this, either that or you have yourself fooled into believing something other than reality which coming from someone calling themself a realist is maybe just a bit ironic. [/ QUOTE ] You're right. They definitely use their muslim viewpoints as a basis for their hatred...and a major recruiting tool. But, do you think, just one day a group of Muslims said..."Hey lets go start killing the infidels!" No. But once the infidels started supplying the opposition with M-16, Abrams tanks, war planes etc...that really stirred the hornest nests. You see, these people have been fighting over land for thousands of years. Then the big bad boy of the West, the US sticks their nose into the mix...and lookout, we just made enemies out of a group of people who will willing blow themselves up to kill you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wtnhunt Posted February 2, 2007 Report Share Posted February 2, 2007 Re: Iran found to be supply Iraqi militias [ QUOTE ] For one, if we weren't in Iraq, the Iranians wouldn't be arming the Iraqis. [/ QUOTE ] Thought the Iranians were supplying the islamic jihadist terrorists from all over the middle east, not specifically iraqis? So what then will be the excuse for Korea giving nukes to our enemies in the future if they have not already done so? They hate us, that is nothing new. Sad truth is we have armed several of our enemies in the past ourselves. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
muggs Posted February 2, 2007 Author Report Share Posted February 2, 2007 Re: Iran found to be supply Iraqi militias Sorry, I should have said the insurgents, not the Iraqis. [ QUOTE ] So what then will be the excuse for Korea giving nukes to our enemies in the future if they have not already done so? They hate us, that is nothing new. Sad truth is we have armed several of our enemies in the past ourselves. [/ QUOTE ] No excuse. Siding with South Korea made an enemy out them. I'm not saying we didn't need to go into Korea...just stating that being the World's police makes enemies. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wtnhunt Posted February 2, 2007 Report Share Posted February 2, 2007 Re: Iran found to be supply Iraqi militias [ QUOTE ] No excuse. Siding with South Korea made an enemy out them. I'm not saying we didn't need to go into Korea...just stating that being the World's police makes enemies. [/ QUOTE ] EXACTLY. You have certainly got that much right. I started to say the same thing in my last reply, but cut it short. We have been putting ourselves in a position to be the worlds police for a long time muggs. This is nothing new. Along the way there are many countries or I should say peoples from countries who have come to hate us. Then there are also some who quite simply do not understand America and the freedoms we have and so in their ignorance they also chose to have a dislike us. Then too there are those who are possibly jealous of our way of life and dislike us for no better reason than that. Unfortunately any way you look at it, disliking Americans on the world stage seems to be somewhat popular. I can remember hearing how the iranians hated us back when I was a kid in the late 70's, who gets the blame there? Just curious how anyone in their right mind will continue to link the hatred that has gone on for probably longer than I have been living solely to Bush and what his administration is trying to do to secure this country. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Strut10 Posted February 2, 2007 Report Share Posted February 2, 2007 Re: Iran found to be supply Iraqi militias [ QUOTE ] Even the public of Great Britain, our strongest ally, strongly opposes our nation's war mongering. And its this type of politics that have brought on the resentment our nation experiences. [/ QUOTE ] Exactly what's wrong with this country's political machine. You cannot run a war by consensus. Who gives a flying rip what the rest of the world thinks. You keep forgetting....as does the rest of the world.......that America is the greatest nation the face of the earth has ever known. We got this way for a reason. And that reason is not that we really cared what the rest of the wimpy world thought when we knew we were right. [ QUOTE ] Not to mention the role oil plays in all of this. You're naive to think otherwise. [/ QUOTE ] Yeah.....I know. Dick Cheyney and Halliburton, again. Get some original thought. [ QUOTE ] Strut, you feel so strongly, you should go enlist. [/ QUOTE ] And you should what??????? Maybe go hold a news conference in Tehran?? Republican, democrat, socialist, whig............. I don't care what. I just get good and tired of seeing the integrity of a great president and a formerly great nation flushed down the toilet by pollster-driven, talking point surrender wonks. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
muggs Posted February 2, 2007 Author Report Share Posted February 2, 2007 Re: Iran found to be supply Iraqi militias [ QUOTE ] Then there are also some who quite simply do not understand America and the freedoms we have and so in their ignorance they also chose to have a dislike us. Then too there are those who are possibly jealous of our way of life and dislike us for no better reason than that. [/ QUOTE ] William. I agree with what you said 100% except for the above quote. I think this is a misconception. No way do I believe Osama Bid Laden attacked us due to our lifestyle. True, I'm sure he views our culture as immoral, but I don't think that would provoke the attack. Iran and other middle Eastern countries have hated us since we became a world power and started trying to dictate other countries. I'd say this began to happen in the 1950's (the U.S. becoming one of the World's military powers after WWII). I'm not blaming Bush solely. But I think invading Iraq was a very irresponsible thing to do considering the anti-American sentitment that as you said, is very popular right now. I also don't see a coorelation between a militant Saudi Arabian billionaire commiting an act of terroism...and our military being sent into Iraq. I have to think there are ulterior motives and bigger political implications that you and I will never know. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
muggs Posted February 2, 2007 Author Report Share Posted February 2, 2007 Re: Iran found to be supply Iraqi militias [ QUOTE ] a great president [/ QUOTE ] Can someone say man crush? Strut, I would try to make you look foolish, but since you seem content on doing that to yourself...I'll just sit back and laugh. If you want to keep believing what you're spoon-fed by ole' Bushy...you go right ahead and continue to walk with the sheep, even though it goes against all common sense and sound logic. But this here sheppard is gonna think for himself. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Texan_Til_I_Die Posted February 2, 2007 Report Share Posted February 2, 2007 Re: Iran found to be supply Iraqi militias [ QUOTE ] I also don't see a coorelation between a militant Saudi Arabian billionaire commiting an act of terroism...and our military being sent into Iraq. I have to think there are ulterior motives and bigger political implications that you and I will never know. [/ QUOTE ] You're correct, but probably not in the way that you imagine. I've hashed this out in detail in several earlier posts, but here it is again in a nutshell. First, you can't deal with the Middle East as single countries. You have to deal with the region as a whole. Keeping that in mind, after 9/11 we looked at the nation that posed the most immediate threat and had the most direct involvment, which was Afghanistan, and moved on it quickly. After the Taliban was deposed in Afghanistan, we next looked to see who else in the region had been aiding al Queda. Both Iran and Iraq were big suppliers of arms, money and training for the terrorists. Iraq made much more strategic sense as a next step because of their geographical location. By setting up a democracy in Iraq that was friendly to the U.S., we would strategically isolate Iran from the rest of the region. The decision was also influenced by Saddam Hussein's attempts to either build or buy WMDs. We figured that if he had them or acquired them, he was just crazy enough to hand some over to al Queda and assist them in using those weapons against U.S. cities. So, the decision was made to go into Iraq. Everything was fine until the Iraqi military was wiped out and we started the rebuilding process. That's when the Islamists saw an opportunity to start a guerrilla (terrorist) war by sending in huge numbers of terrorists from all over the region. They knew that they could never defeat us in combat, but they calculated (correctly it now appears) that if they could drag things out for a long time and cause numerous U.S. casualties, there would be enough political pressure brought to bear by the anti-war faction in this country to force us to withdraw before we finished the job. And that brings us to our current situation. We have a President committed to winning in the Middle East, being opposed by a Congress committed to withdrawing from the Middle East. Only time will tell which philosophy wins out. BTW - The analogy to Vietnam has one serious flaw. The stated goal of the North Vietnamese was to unite both North and South Vietnam into a single Communist country, which they achieved. At no time did they ever say that they wanted to kill, enslave, or convert everyone else in the world to their religion. Which, of course, is what the Islamists are saying. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wtnhunt Posted February 2, 2007 Report Share Posted February 2, 2007 Re: Iran found to be supply Iraqi militias [ QUOTE ] I'm not blaming Bush solely. But I think invading Iraq was a very irresponsible thing to do considering the anti-American sentitment that as you said, is very popular right now. [/ QUOTE ] Sad thing is everyone, well pretty well everyone at the time thought that was the right thing to do. As far the popularity, I am afraid we have been unpopular since well before even the first time we went into Iraq when sadly, if Saddam had of been dealt with appropriately then, this would not even be a conversation now. I for one am glad we have a president who has enough courage to take the battle to the terrorists where ever they are instead of sitting here waiting for the next attack. Just a shame we do not have the manpower to go after them everywhere they are. I strongly feel had we not had Bin Laden running all this time like he is, he would have hit us again, quite possibly harder than 9-11, but that is a speculation and my opinion. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
muggs Posted February 2, 2007 Author Report Share Posted February 2, 2007 Re: Iran found to be supply Iraqi militias [ QUOTE ] Keeping that in mind, after 9/11 we looked at the nation that posed the most immediate threat and had the most direct involvment, which was Afghanistan, and moved on it quickly. [/ QUOTE ] Bin Laden still roams free...the Taliban is as strong as ever, except now they're in Pakistan...not Afghanistan. We're still at war in Afghanistan and I believe less than 20K troops are stationed there. I believe there is somewhere around 150K in Iraq. [ QUOTE ] That's when the Islamists saw an opportunity to start a guerrilla (terrorist) war by sending in huge numbers of terrorists from all over the region. They knew that they could never defeat us in combat, but they calculated (correctly it now appears) that if they could drag things out for a long time and cause numerous U.S. casualties, there would be enough political pressure brought to bear by the anti-war faction in this country to force us to withdraw before we finished the job. [/ QUOTE ] What scares me is that is was the obvious scenario...and Bush and his staff either didn't consider it, or didn't properly plan for it. [ QUOTE ] The analogy to Vietnam has one serious flaw [/ QUOTE ] You're looking to deeply into my analogy. I only meant that the guerilla tatics being used against are troops is very similar to the situation we had in Vietnam. There is no way to combat such tatics with conventional warfare, and there is no way to end a war like this. Its an unwinnable war and we are no longer accomplishing anything. Maybe I should pose this as a question. Texan, I'm sure you'll be able to give me an answer (Strut will probably just flip is lid and make some ingorant comparison or something ) so I'd like to hear what you have to say about it. So here goes...What are we accomplishing in Iraq? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
muggs Posted February 2, 2007 Author Report Share Posted February 2, 2007 Re: Iran found to be supply Iraqi militias [ QUOTE ] Sad thing is everyone, well pretty well everyone at the time thought that was the right thing to do. As far the popularity, I am afraid we have been unpopular since well before even the first time we went into Iraq when sadly, if Saddam had of been dealt with appropriately then, this would not even be a conversation now. [/ QUOTE ] William, I was for it only because Saddam needed to be taken out of power. But I didn't think it was the right move because I knew it would only add to the anti-American sentitment and thus recruit thousands of muslims into Al Queda, the Taliban etc... Honestly, I don't expect any more attacks on the US...not in the near futue anyway. Like I stated earlier, there was more to the 9/11 attacks then Joe Public will ever know, I'm convinced of that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Strut10 Posted February 2, 2007 Report Share Posted February 2, 2007 Re: Iran found to be supply Iraqi militias [ QUOTE ] Can someone say man crush? [/ QUOTE ] I'll forget that you said that should we ever show up at the same RT get-together. [ QUOTE ] Strut, I would try to make you look foolish, but since you seem content on doing that to yourself...I'll just sit back and laugh. [/ QUOTE ] Have at it. Make me look as foolish as you might. Your tunnel vision logic is as humorous as most anything I've run across lately...........in a very sad kind of way. [ QUOTE ] If you want to keep believing what you're spoon-fed by ole' Bushy...you go right ahead and continue to walk with the sheep, even though it goes against all common sense and sound logic. [/ QUOTE ] Actually, I form all my opinions on the war on terror from what the enemy themselves have told us. I just agree that the president is doing the best job that can be done with the information we have. [ QUOTE ] But this here sheppard is gonna think for himself. [/ QUOTE ] Do what you want. But you really could benefit from some serious help in the independent thinking department. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Texan_Til_I_Die Posted February 2, 2007 Report Share Posted February 2, 2007 Re: Iran found to be supply Iraqi militias [ QUOTE ] So here goes...What are we accomplishing in Iraq? [/ QUOTE ] I could run through the list of new schools, better health care, clean water and all those other things that are making daily life better for the Iraqi people, but I don't think that's what you're really after. I take your question to mean "How has our presence in Iraq made life better for the U.S."? OK, here goes. We have planted the seeds of democracy in both Iraq and Afghanistan. It is yet to be determined if those seeds will grow, but if they do, we're on our way to victory. Islamic fanatcism and democracy are mutually self exclusive. The two will never be able to co-exist. Again muggs, you've got it partially right when you say that the war is unwinnable. If it is approached from a strictly military position, the only way to win would be to inflict mass destruction and mass casualties in the region. Something we're certainly capable of doing, but not something we are willing to do. Victory depends on keeping the terrorists in check long enough for those fledgling democracies to take root. And that may be several more years, heck it may be 20 years. But once the people realize they can determine their own fate at the ballot box, the days of the terrorists and fanatics are numbered. They survive today because there is still enough population behind them to provide cover and assistance. Remove that small amount of popular support and they'll be easy targets. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carbonhunter Posted February 3, 2007 Report Share Posted February 3, 2007 Re: Iran found to be supply Iraqi militias [ QUOTE ] Republican, democrat, socialist, whig............. I don't care what. I just get good and tired of seeing the integrity of a great president and a formerly great nation flushed down the toilet by pollster-driven, talking point surrender wonks. [/ QUOTE ] Great president please show us what he has done in office that makes him a "great" president. in an earlier post you said history would be the judge of his term in office? but now just several posts down you call him great? history is moving quick these days. I would also like to point out the fact that the other "great" republican administration of the last 30 years is the same administration that funded/supplied these wack jobs in the middle east. Looking at iraq one must wonder if saddam ruled those people the only way that is possible, through pure terror. I think a blind idiot could think of a better way to spend the money we have spent abroad here at home. Eric brought up many of these areas in an earlier post. H.L.S. being a big one. I live in Arizona and get to see what our immigration reform is doing everyday(not a thing) How about the war on drugs? I think the billions we spent there prob could have cleaned up the streets pretty quick. If the fact that i think Iraq was a mess that Bush created(you can search my posts i dont think i ever stood by it) makes me a surrender "wonk" than so be it. There are many many many problems going on here in the U.S. that will mean more down the road than iraq, and they are being left unchecked because everyones focus is on some sand box on the other side of the world(kinda reminds me of everything you read about the cold war) The nice thing i guess for most of you who are quick to stand by W is that by the time the problems that have been created in the last 20 years really blow up in our faces most will be resting peacefully six feet under, leaving my generation and under to get the brooms out. Scary thought considering you all think that "us" "kids" are so messed up in the head. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carbonhunter Posted February 3, 2007 Report Share Posted February 3, 2007 Re: Iran found to be supply Iraqi militias I like what you said texan but why is it our job to do these things, why do we have to police the world? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest INHunterman Posted February 3, 2007 Report Share Posted February 3, 2007 Re: Iran found to be supply Iraqi militias [ QUOTE ] I like what you said texan but why is it our job to do these things, why do we have to police the world? [/ QUOTE ] Because nobody else will. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Strut10 Posted February 4, 2007 Report Share Posted February 4, 2007 Re: Iran found to be supply Iraqi militias [ QUOTE ] Great president please show us what he has done in office that makes him a "great" president. [/ QUOTE ] ...Have you looekd at any of the economic indicators lately??? ...He took the war on terror to the terrorists. ...He single-handedly brought a genocidal dictator to justice (at the hands of his own people) ...He thumbed his nose at the Kioto Protocol ...He lowered taxes (see "economic indicators" above) ...He allowed the sun to set on the clinton Gun Ban. ...He has kept the U.S. soil free of terrorist attacks for 5 1/2 years. ...He kept Al Gore & John Kerry out of the Oval Office. ...He doesn't keep an intern under his desk. ...If I listed a thousand things, you libs would still blame him for global warming, malaria, starvation, diharrea, acne, hurricanes and post-nasal drip. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wtnhunt Posted February 4, 2007 Report Share Posted February 4, 2007 Re: Iran found to be supply Iraqi militias [ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] I like what you said texan but why is it our job to do these things, why do we have to police the world? [/ QUOTE ] Because nobody else will. [/ QUOTE ] Yep, I would have to agree. The UN sure won't step up and take on the resposibilities they were created for. btw, welcome back Aaron. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carbonhunter Posted February 4, 2007 Report Share Posted February 4, 2007 Re: Iran found to be supply Iraqi militias [ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] Great president please show us what he has done in office that makes him a "great" president. [/ QUOTE ] ...Have you looekd at any of the economic indicators lately??? ...He took the war on terror to the terrorists. ...He single-handedly brought a genocidal dictator to justice (at the hands of his own people) ...He thumbed his nose at the Kioto Protocol ...He lowered taxes (see "economic indicators" above) ...He allowed the sun to set on the clinton Gun Ban. ...He has kept the U.S. soil free of terrorist attacks for 5 1/2 years. ...He kept Al Gore & John Kerry out of the Oval Office. ...He doesn't keep an intern under his desk. ...If I listed a thousand things, you libs would still blame him for global warming, malaria, starvation, diharrea, acne, hurricanes and post-nasal drip. [/ QUOTE ] lol........registered republican Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Strut10 Posted February 4, 2007 Report Share Posted February 4, 2007 Re: Iran found to be supply Iraqi militias [ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] Great president please show us what he has done in office that makes him a "great" president. [/ QUOTE ] ...Have you looekd at any of the economic indicators lately??? ...He took the war on terror to the terrorists. ...He single-handedly brought a genocidal dictator to justice (at the hands of his own people) ...He thumbed his nose at the Kioto Protocol ...He lowered taxes (see "economic indicators" above) ...He allowed the sun to set on the clinton Gun Ban. ...He has kept the U.S. soil free of terrorist attacks for 5 1/2 years. ...He kept Al Gore & John Kerry out of the Oval Office. ...He doesn't keep an intern under his desk. ...If I listed a thousand things, you libs would still blame him for global warming, malaria, starvation, diharrea, acne, hurricanes and post-nasal drip. [/ QUOTE ] lol........registered republican [/ QUOTE ] Registered conservative. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carbonhunter Posted February 5, 2007 Report Share Posted February 5, 2007 Re: Iran found to be supply Iraqi militias good stuff strut Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Texan_Til_I_Die Posted February 5, 2007 Report Share Posted February 5, 2007 Re: Iran found to be supply Iraqi militias [ QUOTE ] I like what you said texan but why is it our job to do these things, why do we have to police the world? [/ QUOTE ] I don't guess we have to, but it's the right thing to do. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carbonhunter Posted February 6, 2007 Report Share Posted February 6, 2007 Re: Iran found to be supply Iraqi militias this will be my last post on this, i agree with most of what your saying. It seems like we have spent a Toooon of money on a big mess when im sure we all could put our heads together and find a better way to spend that money here at home. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Swamphunter Posted February 6, 2007 Report Share Posted February 6, 2007 Re: Iran found to be supply Iraqi militias [ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] A man of lesser character, like Bill Clinton, would have cut and ran at the first sign of sagging poll numbers. It takes someone with courage and convictions to do the right thing even when so many around him are screaming for retreat. [/ QUOTE ] Amen!! God bless George W. Bush and I thank Him that he leads us. [/ QUOTE ] Well said... The Dems claim that its not what "they" would have done, but yet they offer do ideas on just "how" to do it. Liberals just sicken me with the stuff that poors out of there mouths also. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
muggs Posted February 6, 2007 Author Report Share Posted February 6, 2007 Re: Iran found to be supply Iraqi militias The Civil conflict our presence in Iraq has created will go on for thousands of years...as it always has. If you think Decomacry will suceed as it has in South Korea, you kidding yourself. This is a different enemy...an extreme enemy. and Strut...if you want to make threats, you don't have to be so subtle about it, just come out and say it...I'll respect you more for it. Even they I'm not exactly worried about it either way. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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