Texan_Til_I_Die Posted February 7, 2007 Report Share Posted February 7, 2007 Re: some perspective (good read) [ QUOTE ] There's no way to fight remote car bombs, suicide bombers dressed like everyday citizens, or IED's. The only thing worse then losing an American, is losing them in vain. I'm afraid this is exactly what's happening. [/ QUOTE ] And if enough people in this country thought that way 65 years ago, we'd be having this conversation in German or Japanese. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gator Posted February 7, 2007 Report Share Posted February 7, 2007 Re: some perspective (good read) [ QUOTE ] Gator, you should go back and re-read everything a few more times. How this post, or any of my comments are putting any soliders death in a negative light is beyond me. Perception is in the eye of the beholder my friend. [/ QUOTE ] Maybe YOU should go back and re-read some of the things YOU have said my friend. YOU are the one that have said to the effect that these men and women have died in vain. Here is a copy of some of the stuff you have said. Now tell me, how am I reading into what you have said?? Oh, I know, because I am one of those unfortunate people that used the military for a stepping stone. Must be what it is [ QUOTE ] The only thing worse then losing an American, is losing them in vain. I'm afraid this is exactly what's happening. [/ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] I realize these brave men and women volunteer for this Texan. But does that mean that the sacrifice of their lives in vain is necessary? Also, I'm also pretty sure none of the soliders over there have Daddy's trust fund waiting for them when they get back. Most of them use the Armed Forces for a stepping stone to build their future. They go in, knowing full well that they may be asked to die for their country, and they sign up for it. [/ QUOTE ] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
buckee Posted February 7, 2007 Report Share Posted February 7, 2007 Re: some perspective (good read) [ QUOTE ] And if enough people in this country thought that way 65 years ago, we'd be having this conversation in German or Japanese. [/ QUOTE ] Now there's a thought worth pondering. OH, I forgot...liberals don't ponder Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
muggs Posted February 7, 2007 Author Report Share Posted February 7, 2007 Re: some perspective (good read) [ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] Gator, you should go back and re-read everything a few more times. How this post, or any of my comments are putting any soliders death in a negative light is beyond me. Perception is in the eye of the beholder my friend. [/ QUOTE ] Maybe YOU should go back and re-read some of the things YOU have said my friend. YOU are the one that have said to the effect that these men and women have died in vain. Here is a copy of some of the stuff you have said. Now tell me, how am I reading into what you have said?? Oh, I know, because I am one of those unfortunate people that used the military for a stepping stone. Must be what it is [ QUOTE ] The only thing worse then losing an American, is losing them in vain. I'm afraid this is exactly what's happening. [/ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] I realize these brave men and women volunteer for this Texan. But does that mean that the sacrifice of their lives in vain is necessary? Also, I'm also pretty sure none of the soliders over there have Daddy's trust fund waiting for them when they get back. Most of them use the Armed Forces for a stepping stone to build their future. They go in, knowing full well that they may be asked to die for their country, and they sign up for it. [/ QUOTE ] [/ QUOTE ] Yep. The young people dying over there are dying in vain. Because their deaths will not serve a higher purpose. I'll type this big so you guys catch it, because no one has responed to it yet. TELL ME WHAT WE'RE ACCOMPLISHING OVER THERE THAT MAKES LOSING ANOTHER AMERICAN LIFE WORTH IT? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gator Posted February 7, 2007 Report Share Posted February 7, 2007 Re: some perspective (good read) Just by coming in here and saying BS like that Eric is showing their deaths IMO in a bad light. You don't like the war and how it is being fought, fine, that is YOUR opinion, but dammit, don't come in here and say these fine folks have died for NOTHING. If you don't like the way things are going, why don't you put that college education to use, become an officer, make the rank of Gen, then you can have a say so about how it is being fought. Until then, jsut shut th **** up, okay??? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
muggs Posted February 7, 2007 Author Report Share Posted February 7, 2007 Re: some perspective (good read) [ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] There's no way to fight remote car bombs, suicide bombers dressed like everyday citizens, or IED's. The only thing worse then losing an American, is losing them in vain. I'm afraid this is exactly what's happening. [/ QUOTE ] And if enough people in this country thought that way 65 years ago, we'd be having this conversation in German or Japanese. [/ QUOTE ] Apples and Oranges. The lives lost during WWII were not in vain. This was the last worthwhile campaign our military has been involved in. Not to mention, you obviously missed the point...even at face value. WWII was conventional warfare. When our enemy was the German and Japanese nations (as you noted). The enemy had a face, a uniform, and they met them on the battlefield. Once you've cut off their supplies, killed them all, or broke their infastructure...you defeated them. Our means of conventional warfare can't combat car bombs, IED's etc.... New insurgents come to kill Americans everyday, from most of the surrounding nations. They ambush, sabatoge and boobytrap....there's no way to win this war. That's the reality. Now please someone address my quesition. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gator Posted February 7, 2007 Report Share Posted February 7, 2007 Re: some perspective (good read) I for one cannot answer your question, mainly because I do not have all the info that you evidently have, nor am I in country and seeing what is being done in the first person perspective. Many have said in the past that the media is only portraying the bad that happens, and NEVER the good. Is this true, I really don't know, but it sure seems to be that way. Now if we leave, we will be viewed as a cowardly nation IMO, one that does not ahve the backbone to stand tall and fight a good fight, agains all enemies, both foreign and domestic. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
muggs Posted February 7, 2007 Author Report Share Posted February 7, 2007 Re: some perspective (good read) [ QUOTE ] I do not have all the info that you evidently have [/ QUOTE ] oh boy, more attacks. [ QUOTE ] nor am I in country and seeing what is being done in the first person perspective. Many have said in the past that the media is only portraying the bad that happens, and NEVER the good. Is this true, I really don't know, but it sure seems to be that way. [/ QUOTE ] I've lost a friend over there. My cousin, a Marine, has fought over there three times...including Desert Storm. He's set to go back one month after he returns from his tour as Head of Marine Security at the Cambodian Embassy, and my future Father-In-Law has fought in Iraq more times than he can tell. He was in the Army Special Forces for over 23 years. These knowlegable men all feel that the war is unwinnable based soley on the tatics the enemy is using. They also feel that the troops need to be pulled out. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gator Posted February 7, 2007 Report Share Posted February 7, 2007 Re: some perspective (good read) [ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] I do not have all the info that you evidently have [/ QUOTE ] oh boy, more attacks. [ QUOTE ] nor am I in country and seeing what is being done in the first person perspective. Many have said in the past that the media is only portraying the bad that happens, and NEVER the good. Is this true, I really don't know, but it sure seems to be that way. [/ QUOTE ] I've lost a friend over there. My cousin, a Marine, has fought over there three times...including Desert Storm. He's set to go back one month after he returns from his tour as Head of Marine Security at the Cambodian Embassy, and my future Father-In-Law has fought in Iraq more times than he can tell. He was in the Army Special Forces for over 23 years. These knowlegable men all feel that the war is unwinnable based soley on the tatics the enemy is using. They also feel that the troops need to be pulled out. [/ QUOTE ] Nope, not an attack on you, you just proved that you had more info than what I did in your last statement. You see, I have yet to talk with ANYONE that has been there, so I CANNOT form an opinion on the state of affairs that Iraq is in. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
muggs Posted February 7, 2007 Author Report Share Posted February 7, 2007 Re: some perspective (good read) [ QUOTE ] we will be viewed as a cowardly nation IMO, one that does not ahve the backbone to stand tall and fight a good fight, agains all enemies, both foreign and domestic. [/ QUOTE ] Might as well stay then huh? Nevermind the fact our military is spread thin and no one is enlisting. Nevermind that we can't win the war. Nevermind that were going to continue to lose Americans for no reason. You can't honestly believe that how other nations "may" view us is a reason to continue to fight a losing battle. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnf Posted February 7, 2007 Report Share Posted February 7, 2007 Re: some perspective (good read) [ QUOTE ] I'll type this big so you guys catch it, because no one has responed to it yet. TELL ME WHAT WE'RE ACCOMPLISHING OVER THERE THAT MAKES LOSING ANOTHER AMERICAN LIFE WORTH IT? [/ QUOTE ] We are keeping this enevitable fight on their streets and letting their innocent civilians die. (not our) That's one thing we are accomplishing. By fighting we are showing them that we will fight them and keeping them out of our country. (for now) Make no mistake, their goal is a Muslem WORLD. That's WORLD, like all of us. The Koran teaches that if someone doesn't convert they are an infedel and should be killed. It is what they do and will always do as long as they have the means. I see this thing like Reagan "War on drugs". It may never end, but as long as we are fighting there is some level of control. France hasn't done a thing and right now if the Muslems wanted to take over France they could probibly do it in a heart beat. How do I think this thing could be won? 1. Thermonuclear detonation of every major muslem city in the world. 2. The return of Christ. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
buckee Posted February 7, 2007 Report Share Posted February 7, 2007 Re: some perspective (good read) [ QUOTE ] These knowledgeable men all feel that the war is unwinnable based solely on the tactics the enemy is using. [/ QUOTE ] Un-winnable or hard to fight because of the enemies tactics and not worth fighting or fighting in vain are two different things. Running, because you think you might lose is not the answer either. It's an unconventional war, no doubt, and the other side hides behind woman and children and doesn't wear a uniform, or worse yet wears fake uniforms, but that's a pretty sorry excuse to cut and run. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wtnhunt Posted February 7, 2007 Report Share Posted February 7, 2007 Re: some perspective (good read) As in any war Eric there is a goal, pretty sure the goals of this war are quite clear, and if I am not mistaken Texan did already go over this in another thread. One of the goals is to fight the enemy on their soil not ours. The president made it quite clear we would seek out the enemy where they were wherever that happened to be. I know I know you are going to come back with this about Iraq not attacking us, but they did harbor our enemy for certain, and while you may not agree that they were a potential threat, you yourself have agreed that saddam needed removed, that was another goal. Stabilizing a free society in Iraq will have its rewards when they can stand on their own. That obviously will take more time than anyone would have predicted. With what our soldiers are dying for, I would never say they are dying in vain. That is a slap in the face to them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Strut10 Posted February 7, 2007 Report Share Posted February 7, 2007 Re: some perspective (good read) [ QUOTE ] You ever drive through Philly Sturt? Who's helping those people...looks worse than most thrid-world countries. [/ QUOTE ] Yep. Nice place. Those people have been helped by the democrats since F.D.R. If you keep supplying Section 8 and paying people to do nothing but be poor (welfare) do you think they'll wanna go out & find a job?? It ain't just Philly. It's every major metro in America. But that's fodder for a whole different thread. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Strut10 Posted February 7, 2007 Report Share Posted February 7, 2007 Re: some perspective (good read) [ QUOTE ] I was referring more towards your blind love and support for anything you feel as being either Republican or Conservative. [/ QUOTE ] You need to look around a tad more........at least on the "Republican blind love" charge. From another of my posts: [ QUOTE ] I'm pretty convinced at this point that if the Republicans don't field Mike Huckabee (I sure wish Rick Santorum would run!!!) or another conservative, 2008 will be the first presidential election I will sit out since I started to vote. Right now I'm thinking about writing the GOP and suggesting they change their party symbol from the elephant to some kind of cross between an ostrich and a jellyfish. [/ QUOTE ] I also think both parties are complete idiots concerning illegal immigration. I do have quite an independant and analytical mind. And, yes........I'm probably more conservative than anyone you know. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wtnhunt Posted February 8, 2007 Report Share Posted February 8, 2007 Re: some perspective (good read) [ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] You ever drive through Philly Sturt? Who's helping those people...looks worse than most thrid-world countries. [/ QUOTE ] Yep. Nice place. Those people have been helped by the democrats since F.D.R. If you keep supplying Section 8 and paying people to do nothing but be poor (welfare) do you think they'll wanna go out & find a job?? It ain't just Philly. It's every major metro in America. But that's fodder for a whole different thread. [/ QUOTE ] That is so true. Some people have the motivation to pop out babies and sit on their duffs, a way of life sadly that they are living thanks to the support the democratic lawmakers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Clay008 Posted February 10, 2007 Report Share Posted February 10, 2007 Re: some perspective (good read) [ QUOTE ] Nevermind the fact our military is spread thin and no one is enlisting. Nevermind that we can't win the war. Nevermind that were going to continue to lose Americans for no reason. [/ QUOTE ] I believe the figures included in this article show that the soldiers believe in their mission and believe that they are changing the world for better. http://www.army.mil/recruitingandretention/ Short summary of the article: Re-enlistment goals were met and exceeded. Enlistment goals were either acheived or missed by less than 1%. This shows that the American Soldiers/Citizens support the mission and believe that they are making change. We have already won the war. We have defeated the enemy. Saddam and his leadership are either dead or in prison. Now were are trying to build a country but, we are met with strong opposition from other countries with other interests than ours. Also we have other factions trying kill each other because they don't like each others religion. Muggs you are correct about not being able to stay there forever and needed to leave. So I think the best thing to do now is to set a date that the Unites States is going to leave. This is going to encourage the Iraq government to be proactive in order to train their military and prepare to run a country. Now for the question of why even fight this war: We went to war to eliminate a bad guy and clean up nasty weapons and the ability to make such weapons. To also eliminate a terrorist haven. The reason I would also have used to go to war: Saddam never followed the rules that were set in place by the UN back in the first war. Well the UN which might as well be called the League of Nations (Weak and Does Nothing) should have called for some military action in Iraq. When you let the bad guy Saddam (in the league of nations case Hitler) break rules trouble will follow. You might say that Saddam could not achieve what Hitler did but, I don't believe that is a valid argument because nobody believed Hitler was that big of a threat till WWII. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carbonhunter Posted February 11, 2007 Report Share Posted February 11, 2007 Re: some perspective (good read) [ QUOTE ] Now for the question of why even fight this war: We went to war to eliminate a bad guy and clean up nasty weapons and the ability to make such weapons. To also eliminate a terrorist haven. [/ QUOTE ] So does that mean Iran is next then N.K. ??? where does it stop? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Strut10 Posted February 11, 2007 Report Share Posted February 11, 2007 Re: some perspective (good read) [ QUOTE ] So does that mean Iran is next then N.K. ??? where does it stop? [/ QUOTE ] I don't believe that N.K. is even in the same "threat league" as Iran. Jong Il is just a little napoleonic squirt trying to get the world to notice him. Crazy as he is......he knows if he fires a nuke at anybody he's toast. Don't know that he's ever specifically mentioned a target by name. Ahmadenajhad is a whole other deal. He's driven by 1200 years of his "religious" beliefs to eradicate all infidels. He's within (as little as) months of having a nuke. He will use it. He's going to start with Israel. He's already said that. Don't think for a minute that if he had the ability to strike the U.S. tonight, he wouldn't. In his mind, if he's taken out, it will have been in the name of Allah and that's the highest hoor he could wish for. IMHO, Tehran should be preemptively struck and struck viciously. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest michael_bolton Posted February 12, 2007 Report Share Posted February 12, 2007 Re: some perspective (good read) I see this thing like Reagan "War on drugs". It may never end, but as long as we are fighting there is some level of control. France hasn't done a thing and right now if the Muslems wanted to take over France they could probibly do it in a heart beat. How do I think this thing could be won? 1. Thermonuclear detonation of every major muslem city in the world. 2. The return of Christ. [/ QUOTE ] 110% in agreement here. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
buckee Posted February 12, 2007 Report Share Posted February 12, 2007 Re: some perspective (good read) [ QUOTE ] How do I think this thing could be won? 1. Thermonuclear detonation of every major Muslim city in the world. 2. The return of Christ. [/ QUOTE ] I pick #2 In the meantime..fight the good fight, rescue and free the oppressed and feed the hungry Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stevebeilgard Posted February 18, 2007 Report Share Posted February 18, 2007 Re: some perspective (good read) muggs... where are you going to get all your valuable information now that al franken is off the air....lol 1) we have saced hundreds of thousands of lives by stopping the genocide 2) we HAVE found weapons of mass destruction, called chemicals that Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stevebeilgard Posted February 18, 2007 Report Share Posted February 18, 2007 Re: some perspective (good read) sorry, hit the wrong button. #2, called chemicals that killed hundreds of thousands of iraquies before we were there 3) women in iraq have been elevated above animals, and can even go to school. 4) speaking of school, millions of iraquis now have a school to go to. 5) water if flowing freely in iraq, as is the oil. the oil is sold on the open market. remember, you were told this whole war thing was all about oil. just another liberal lie you dont hear much about any more. i could go on and on, but i feel it will only fall on deaf liberal ears, and not worth the typing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TreeStandBowHunter Posted February 18, 2007 Report Share Posted February 18, 2007 Re: some perspective (good read) [ QUOTE ] Might as well stay then huh? Nevermind the fact our military is spread thin and no one is enlisting [/ QUOTE ] Boy ol boy, talk about rhetorical devices and fallicies coming from the dems... The last time I checked, the services are making their goal with enlistments. I hope some of you don't get your info from CNN. Please say you don't. This is nice to see though now that I am back. It really makes light of what we are doing over there. I would give some of you some points to ponder but I don't think it would make a difference. Oh don't worry, I know the old saying that some of you have that you use for your defense "Just because I didn't go over and fight doesn't mean that I cannot give my opinion". Yeah, that might be true but that is only because I am not the President. If I was the president, you wouldn't have that right unless you wanted to wind up in Al Anbar Province the next day! Some of you are simply amazing! I still love all of ya though, even if some of you are nitwits Obscure reference- The former SgtMaj of the Marine Corps, SgtMaj McMichael was on a tour on the west coast when he was talking to some Marines about issues in the Marine Corps. One Marine said about how the "New" Marines are un-disciplined and look nasty. The SgtMaj issued that Marine orders to Drill Instructor duty that month. I bet that Marine kept his mouth shut after that ordeal! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnf Posted February 19, 2007 Report Share Posted February 19, 2007 Re: some perspective (good read) I'de love to hear from someone who actually knew what they were talking about. We're all just speculating here. I think you're the only one here with the right to say exactly what you want to. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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