Our children's Classrooms

[buckee]

Here is a book, "I" believe should be in the classrooms around the country, along side the teaching of evolution.

FoolishFaith

I challenge you to read it, before making your judgements and relies to this thread.

[johnf]

Re: Our children\'s Classrooms

Darn you buckee, I've spent half the afternoon reading that book on-line.

Very eye opening.

[Nut]

Re: Our children\'s Classrooms

I read some of it. (Probably not enough to suit what was meant.)

My thoughts are it does not belong in public schools in The United States (Dont care if Canada does )

Parochial education might include it (probably not Catholic schools though) but I dont care what they do either.

I have my own beliefs on creation vs. evolution and believe they go hand in hand with each other. I did some great bible studies 12 years ago with a good teacher and pastor who helped me realize on how the bible was translated. It was eye opening and educational.

So that is also the way I teach my children. After all it is my responsiblity to teach my children about God. That is why I rarely trust anyone else with them on this subject.

[buckee]

Re: Our children\'s Classrooms

All I'm saying nut, is that evolutionists claim that evolution is sound science. This book points out that many scientists themselves do not believe the "theory" of evolution is sound science. There are also many scientist that don't believe in creation, but also see the holes in the theory of evolution, bases solely on science.

[Nut]

Re: Our children\'s Classrooms

Yep buckee. There are many scientists that speculate this and scientists that speculate that.(if ya know what I mean)

In the end we really do not know who is right on which subject.

I am not against a teacher mentioning that there is creationism(sp) while teaching on how man came into being.(In fact I am all for it) but I would like all people to choose on what they believe with their free choice. Maybe I am wrong (wouldnt be the first time).

[billygoat]

Re: Our children\'s Classrooms

Way to go Buckee... Open a can of worms!

I don't know about you, but every morning that I sit up in a tree stand, watch the sun come up and the forest come alive... it's a no brainer (I know those squirels evolved from donkeys )

I agree with nut though people need the opprotunity to choose their belief. Unfortunately, many of our schools only present the theory of evolution... so how can any child/person make a "sound" choice... You're right Buckee, we need equal presentation.

[VermontHunter]

Re: Our children\'s Classrooms

This subject to me is one sided...this is why,,,a teacher can teach the theory of evolution, but can't teach or even mention any theory's from the bible or any religon in our public schools here in the state's it's flatly against federal law period.

So how can you teach two opposing theory's when one is against the law to teach in public schools ?? (JMO)

[buckee]

Re: Our children\'s Classrooms

That's just it, I'm not saying to teach any "so called theories" from the bible. I'm talking about science itself and what the scientific community itself is saying, regarding the accounts given in the bible. There's more solid scientific evidence supporting the events, spoken of in the old testiment.

After all, the Bible is a collection of historical documents, that although separated from each other through time, written by the hand of different authors down through history, and then brought together to compliment and agree with each other in what is now know as the Bible, is in itself amazing.

But I'm talking science here.

There are many, many scientists who disagree with evolution, based on the evidence before them and there are many other scientist who say the evidence lines up with biblical accounts and creation, instead of the "theory" of evolution.

So my question is why is our education system, in the interest of teaching sound science, not presenting our children with all of these scientific findings, so they can chose for themselves what to believe, instead of cattering to the elete evolutionists, who's findings are weak at best, and teaching it as undisputed fact.

[wtnhunt]

Re: Our children\'s Classrooms

Not saying schools should teach religion, but do think schools should offer the opportunity for kids to chose what to believe instead of saying this is the way it is period. The mentality of some teachers so stuck in the books that they are too closed minded to accept that they may be wrong can do more harm than good to a child trying to learn. JMHO.

[SaskMan]

Re: Our children\'s Classrooms

I'm a teacher and I don't want it in my classroom, nor would I ever teach the theory of evolution. I don't feel such topics belong in a public school. People should be allowed to make up their minds by themselves and teachers are influencial, just like parents are, preachers are....whoever. Bottom line...Keep them both out of my classroom.

[VermontHunter]

Re: Our children\'s Classrooms

[ QUOTE ]

I'm a teacher and I don't want it in my classroom, nor would I ever teach the theory of evolution. I don't feel such topics belong in a public school. People should be allowed to make up their minds by themselves and teachers are influencial, just like parents are, preachers are....whoever. Bottom line...Keep them both out of my classroom.

[/ QUOTE ]

I would think it would be natural for a child to wonder where man came from..Hmm.the stars or from a ameba... If schools aren't allowed or choose not to answer these questions then where would they learn the differences of opinions ?? from a one sided parent or clergyman..I hope not but from a educator than will explain things from all sides...a totally unbias education system is the best of all in my opinion..but that's me...

[buckee]

Re: Our children\'s Classrooms

[ QUOTE ]

I'm a teacher and I don't want it in my classroom, nor would I ever teach the theory of evolution. I don't feel such topics belong in a public school. People should be allowed to make up their minds by themselves and teachers are influencial, just like parents are, preachers are....whoever. Bottom line...Keep them both out of my classroom.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'd like to know where you teach, and how you as a teacher can get away with not discussing the origin of man in any way, shape, or form in the classroom. Unless of course you teach only one subject.

If you are a history, science or even a geography teacher, the origin of man would come up somewhere in your curriculum

[ QUOTE ]

People should be allowed to make up their minds by themselves

[/ QUOTE ]

I couldn't agree more, but how can anyone make up their minds about a subject, if they have limited or no input to base their decision on ????

[SaskMan]

Re: Our children\'s Classrooms

Buckee, I teach elementary school and it not part of the grade 4 curriculum nor will I discuss things only to have angry parents coming in b/c an opinion they don't feel is right is presented. Why be the messenger and get shot for it?

Vermonthunter, same thing, why put yourself under fire? Regardless if both sides are presented equally somebody will be mad at you. Just b/c some people are open minded doesn't mean all are. Unless you are a teacher you have no idea what kind of scrutiny and ridicule you are open to in the eyes of some people.

[buckee]

Re: Our children\'s Classrooms

OK saskman. If you teach elementary school and it is not part of the grade 4 curriculum, then I can understand your answer now. I thought kids learned about dinosaurs and how old they are in kindergarten

I guess you never read any of that on-line book.

This subject does pertain to what our children are being fed from kindergarten on up. You say you don't teach any evolution in your class and it's not in the curriculum...I bet you do and you don't even know it.

Have you ever talked about dinosaurs with your class? Do you have books on them in class? do those books ever mention the age of dinosaurs in millions of years, instead of possibly only thousands of years?

Like it or not, you are giving those children the unsound scientific building blocks of the theory of evolution.

I rest my case.

[SaskMan]

Re: Our children\'s Classrooms

Buckee I guess you didn't bother to read why I don't discuss it, people with an opinion down your throat, like you are right now. No I don't talk about dinosaurs, try weather, rocks, fish, energy, cells and systems in science.

You didn't think about why I don't like to discuss it b/c of your strong views....I rest MY case.

[wtnhunt]

Re: Our children\'s Classrooms

Dont really think 4th graders here learn much about evolution yet Steve. That is more when kids get into middle school. But IMO there are some very closed minded teachers out there who tend to force kids to accept what is "in the text book" as fact and those are the teachers who can potentially change a childs outlook and possibly lead them to be forced to think that evolution is how man came to be.

[buckee]

Re: Our children\'s Classrooms

I apologize saskman.

I'm not trying to shove anything down anyones throat, especially not yours. My whole point is, that I and others are tired of having evolution shoved down our childrens throat from the time they enter kindergarten until the time they leave college, without hearing what the "whole" scientific community has to say on the issue.

I painted for the school board for 12 years in this community and know for a fact, that "evolution" or should I say "the building blocks for evolution" is taught in kindergarten and on up.

Now if you don't diguss or talk about dinosours, age of fossels, etc, etc, with your kids in grade 4, then you are a rarity....a real rarity.

I'm not trying to argue with you, I'm just stating facts

http://www.dover.k12.nh.us/curriculum/science/k.html

http://www.enchantedlearning.com/crafts/dinosaurs/

Grade 4 book

http://www.abc.net.au/beasts/factfiles/

[VermontHunter]

Re: Our children\'s Classrooms

SaskMan,

All I can say is that here in the states kids in todays classrooms can't celabrate Christmas, Halloween, or any other celebrated Holiday because it may offend the one parent. My point is that how is a child supposed to experince other beliefs if they aren't exposed or taught about them.

I as a taxpayer should be able to send my child to school and learn about the WORLDS many beliefs. but it seems today that the needs of the one outwieghs the needs of the many.

I accept that teaching has many challenging aspects other than teaching but teachers know this going into the game....

[SaskMan]

Re: Our children\'s Classrooms

Buckee, well said in your post, I won't argue with you, either, don't want to, your post is well thought out and valid and there are some things that happen in education that shouldn't.

VermontHunter, it is a joke if kids cannot celebrate Christmas or Halloween, happens here too in places and I strongly disagree with the needs of one outweighing the needs of many but for some reason that is what we as a society do, bend over backwards for the one.

The main point I was trying to get across was that there are people who ? everything and get angry over things they don't believe in etc. I ask you, in your employment would you do something not absolutely necessary f you new outside people would be coming at you with balls and chains becasue of it? This is why as a teacher I won't open that can of worms, it is not worth it, having angry parents, criticizing, demanding things etc... b/c I share a theory they do not believe in. Some times some things are better left alone. Knowing this before "going into the game" does and should not matter. Spend a day as a teacher, then maybe you can start criticizing them.

[VermontHunter]

Re: Our children\'s Classrooms

SaskMan,

I would never critisize a perfession that I myself have never done.I do however understand the delema of the "rock and a hard place".It is not a joke however that kids cannot celebrate certian Holidays in our school systems becuase a parent thinks it's going to conflict with thier belief.

And as for people coming into my work place and confronting me on something that has set them off, happens on a daily basis, I have over the years learned how to dispatch this type of behavior without violence, but do understand what you are saying about todays society and how they handle thier problems.I myself find this to be a sad time in era.

Anyhow you and I are two stangers that are adults and can have a debate without all the name calling and stupidity that others deem neccassry in their lives. I am happy to be able to call you a friend and have civil debates.

Merry Christmas to you and your family and be safe.

THANKYOU, for being a teacher and making a effort to sculpt our younger generation into a better society.

Luke

[SaskMan]

Re: Our children\'s Classrooms

VermontHunter, thank you for a very respectful post, you are truly a person with class. Before i end our debate I's like to clarify one thing. When I said that not being able to celebrate Christmas and Holloween was a joke I did not believe I did not believe you, I meant it happens here as well and I don't agree with it at all, I feel it is a joke and a disgrace.

Merry Christmas to you and your family, may you have a safe and happy holiday season and all the best in 2005.

[superguide]

Re: Our children\'s Classrooms

I have four schoolage children in the same town that Saskman teaches in and neither creationalism or evolution are being shoved down anybodies throat. Our community is as big a cultural melting pot as anywhere-yet we all seem to get along with each others differing beliefs-like I told my born again gonna save Cory neighbor-what happens between me and god is between me and god not between you,me and god. There are children in our schools that don't celebrate X-Mas-in fact one is in my daughter's class-I explained that is her decision to make-not ours.Our school district here is full of great teachers-doing a great job-I compare the opportunities,experiences and life lessoins my kids are receiving and find them far better than what I was exposed to.

[VermontHunter]

Re: Our children\'s Classrooms

[ QUOTE ]

There are children in our schools that don't celebrate X-Mas-in fact one is in my daughter's class-I explained that is her decision to make-not ours.

[/ QUOTE ]

superguide,

This is exactly what saskman and I were talking about this would be OK if it was the child's choice, but it seems that the parent has made that choice for them already. Here in the states it's not a choice at all it's just plain out flat illegal to celebrate any holiday in the classrooms of our schools period, so I ask where is the choice of the child ???

[superguide]

Re: Our children\'s Classrooms

Yes Vermont but where is the choice of the child in any organized religion when you think of it. Isn't it up to the parents to make the choices they feel are best faith wise for their children. Do you think many 7 year olds have chosen on their own to be Protestants,Catholics, Muslims etc. As other parents I think it's up to us to respect that right not belittle or condemn it-I totally agree with Saskman's stance on what he teaches it is not up to him to grind someone elses axe for him.

[VermontHunter]

Re: Our children\'s Classrooms

Then I ask where does the life experience come into the picture if a child can't experince other beliefs other than his/her own ?? When I attended grade school I got to experince all of the different holidays not just the religious ones and find myself to be a better person for it. This in no way detered me from my own religion. This has nothing to with belittling, or condeming another belief, In my opinion if all beliefs are given equal and unbias explanations we all learn from one another and don't grow up on speculation....