rossman Posted March 23, 2007 Report Share Posted March 23, 2007 THe following is a PM I sent to "Texastrophies" after my post had been deleted. Buckee told me to discuss it n an appropriate thread so here it is. I would assume this will not be deleted because it is appropriate!!!! I would like to know all of your thoughts on this topic? Thanks--rossman!!! Here is the PM---- (Start) That's fine and I understand. But, it's weak to use the "if it's legal then it's OK" approach. The law does not dictate morals/ethics, especially in hunting. ANd this approach should not be used. It's basically saying, for example, that if ur in, a state like nevada and prostitution is legal then you support it? Or if you in a radical mideast country that degrades women then you would support it? I'm not saying you do, because I will not put words in your mouth, it would be disrespectful to say the least. ANd I'm sure you don't. Just an example. Laws should not dictate hunting morals or ethics. Especially high fenced crap. It is un-ethical and immoral and I believe Real Tree should not touch it with a finger. There have been many times where Real Tree has supported High Fenced hunting and even had a cover story on Realtree.com advertising for "Pecos Bar-X-Bar Ranch. Which is a high fenced encloseure Elk hunting operation. I sent a PM to the person in charge nad they did take it off. But the damage was done. I think Real Tree and yourself should be more careful in how you deal with High Fence crap. It makes Rea Tree look "Real Bad" they support it in any way, shape or form. Now, I'm done with this topic and will not bash anyone else who posts it. Just be careful in how you deal with these situations!!! Thanks for listening--rossman (END) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
texastrophies Posted March 23, 2007 Report Share Posted March 23, 2007 Re: Appropriate High Fence Thread!!!! Rossman, you brought our pm out in the open, so I will just save time and reply to you here. As long as this remains civil, I see no reason for it not to remain. Just remember, you can not force your views on everyone and I imagine not everyone will have the same view as you, so don't get to upset if you get opinions that don't agree with you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gator Posted March 23, 2007 Report Share Posted March 23, 2007 Re: Appropriate High Fence Thread!!!! Don't know what happened, but I will say that if something is legal, as far as hunting is concerned, that even though I may not like it, and may not support it, I also will NOT OPENLY bash it either. Why, we as "hunters" need to stand together, (United we Stand, Divided we fall) Just like having feeders where legal, and those that think it is unfair, when you get down to the nitty gritty, is there REALLY a difference? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
okiedog Posted March 23, 2007 Report Share Posted March 23, 2007 Re: Appropriate High Fence Thread!!!! What size fence do you consider "high fence"? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
coles Posted March 23, 2007 Report Share Posted March 23, 2007 Re: Appropriate High Fence Thread!!!! oh boy, you are really askin for it... i bet at least 80% of the people on here disagree with highfences. MYSELF INCLUDED...... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gator Posted March 23, 2007 Report Share Posted March 23, 2007 Re: Appropriate High Fence Thread!!!! [ QUOTE ] oh boy, you are really askin for it... i bet at least 80% of the people on here disagree with highfences. MYSELF INCLUDED...... [/ QUOTE ] That's allright, I got big shoulders. And I NEVER said I was in favor of them. I could really care less about them. Great thing about them, is that I DO NOT have to participate in them. But if someone wants to spend their hard earned money on one, by all means, who am I to stop them? But what if someone has say, 20,000 acres behind a fence? That is ALOT of land, more land than you can cover in a week I bet Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
buckee Posted March 23, 2007 Report Share Posted March 23, 2007 Re: Appropriate High Fence Thread!!!! To be perfectly honest, I don't understand what the problem is with a high-fence, around hundreds or thousands of acres of land to keep predators out, and desired animals in. It's no different than hunting on a big Island, or a small island for that matter, which I myself have done plenty of. I think some folks have this mental picture of the hunter and an animal standing inside this wee little enclosure, with the animal running around in circles, while the hunter takes pot shots at it. To those folks, I say, "go visit one". I think some folks have a little too much imagination. I'd also like to say, that if you think something that is legal, shouldn't be legal, then sitting around talking about it, is a big waste of time. Voice your concerns or your petitions with the law makers, and quit whining and condemning others who hunt these places "Legally". The only things I see wrong with High-fence hunting operations, besides the obvious smaller enclosure type ones (like in the Jimmy Houston case), is the Privatisation of hunting, not the dang fence. And over-crowding and mis-management of game animals is another issue that comes to mind, and may apply to some, but not all. The fence is there for a very, very good purpose, especially when it comes to non-native animal species. I certainly wouldn't want to see non-native species of animals, such as wild boar, let lose to roam the countryside and reproduce at their leisure. A high-fence allows for Controlled Game Management of these species. I don't know what the hullabaloo about the fence itself is all about. It serves an important function, not to be confused with being unethical, immoral, or unfair. It's the size of the area inside the fence, the carrying capacity of that land, and the proper management of the game on that land that is the issue...not the fence. Privatisation of hunting on a large scale should be the concern...not the dang fence. The only factor that gives the hunter, hunting these large enclosed hunting areas a bit of an advantage, is the fact that the game is guaranteed to be there...somewhere. But even that advantage is no more of an advantage than the hunter has who has properly scouted out the game on whatever land he/she hunts. Not really much different than hiring a hunting guide on open unfenced terrain, who knows where to find the game. There is nothing unethical about hunting a few hundred acres of land, fenced or unfenced, that contains an abundance of wildlife. You could wonder around a couple hundred acres for the next 20 years, and never see all the game that's there...fenced or unfenced. There is the potential inside a high-fenced operation of unethical practices taking place however. We all know that. eg ... driving game into a corner to a waiting hunter. However, even with that said, you could hunt an island the same way (which I have), and call that unethical. The water acts as a natural high-fence, and the game will react the same way. If pushed by dogs, they would jump in the water and swim for it, but if pushed by man, they stay on the land, and the water acts as a fence. One big plus about high-fence operations is it allows hunters who would like to hunt exotic species, or any species for that matter, the opportunity to hunt these animals. Folks use guides and these types of ranches for various reasons. Could be don't want or can't afford to travel the world for these species,or they may have very busy lives, with no time to scout themselves or have access to good hunting land. There are people who live in big cities who love to hunt, believe it or not...LOL Another plus is it allows for the management of big trophies (Quality Game Management). That can be a real plus for these city folks, who love hunting, but have little access to good land. That can be looked at from both the negative and positive aspects, by all. The greatest concern facing hunters, when it comes to High-fence hunting operations is the privatization of hunting land. If we are going to have these things legally,(which they are) then they need to be limited, and regulated strictly. I'm all for free enterprize, but when it starts infringing on others rights, then it needs to be regulated. The Dang High-fence in itself, is not the problem.IMO Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AJ Posted March 24, 2007 Report Share Posted March 24, 2007 Re: Appropriate High Fence Thread!!!! Personally, I have no problem with large tracts of land enclosed in a high fence. A 5000 acre parcel that is high fenced and all wooded is harder to hunt and more sporting than an unfenced river bottom that is surrounded by miles of fields. Each circumstance is different. I don't have a blanket statement or one size fits all for or against. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Strut10 Posted March 24, 2007 Report Share Posted March 24, 2007 Re: Appropriate High Fence Thread!!!! [ QUOTE ] Each circumstance is different. I don't have a blanket statement or one size fits all for or against. [/ QUOTE ] Well put. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
_MD_ Posted March 24, 2007 Report Share Posted March 24, 2007 Re: Appropriate High Fence Thread!!!! I never see anyone ask " So you have 20,000 arces. How many times has it be cross fenced?" Then suddenly you realize their is summer pasture and winter pasture and a safe pen and a kill pen then a $1000 kill pen and a cull kill pen and a high price kill pen. Then while you are sitting on the only water tank in that fenced area you think wow if the whole place had no cross fences it might be ok but now ... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
snapper Posted March 24, 2007 Report Share Posted March 24, 2007 Re: Appropriate High Fence Thread!!!! I have no problems with high fences if its what you choose to do. I did it once...had a good time, but really not for me. Since I did it....I can have a fair and equal opinion...most folks can't say that. They disagree with something without ever trying it or know what its about. If you want to hunt deer with dogs and crossbow...have at it...I will not bash or put anyone down for doing so. Keep in mind...these animals are bought like cattle...why is it ok to fence in beef and kill and eat it...but not deer that are bought like them? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WABS Posted March 26, 2007 Report Share Posted March 26, 2007 Re: Appropriate High Fence Thread!!!! I'm with you AJ. You have to remember also that not everyone has the same access or time to devote to hunting. Some folks would rather pay for a sure thing. I don't see any difference between high fence hunting and bird hunting on a preserve, which I have done. Not my favorite type of bird hunting, but it's the only type of pheasant/quail/chukar hunting available where I'm at. So therefore there are times that I'll pay my money to go out and enjoy the activity with friends / family. Why is high fense hunting any different? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Texan_Til_I_Die Posted March 26, 2007 Report Share Posted March 26, 2007 Re: Appropriate High Fence Thread!!!! As mentioned before, it all comes down to how large the enclosure is, how much cover is present, etc. High fence hunts CAN be unethical, but aren't necessarily so. A quick check I use is to ask myself these questions: Do the animals inside the high fence even know they're fenced in? Do they act any differently than they would otherwise? If the answer to those questions is NO, then what's the problem? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
G-Daddy Posted March 26, 2007 Report Share Posted March 26, 2007 Re: Appropriate High Fence Thread!!!! My son is a taxidermist and he wanted to collect a specimen for his showroom. He decided he wanted a Corsican Ram and he surfed the net looking for a hide and horns that he could use for a lifesize mount. What he found was some incredibly high priced items for sale. He also found a "ranch" about an hour's drive away at which he could shoot his specimen for about half of what he would pay for the hide and horns. I went along to help him bring his stuff home and get it into his workshop. He shot the ram in a 250 acre enclosure. Was it "hunting"? NO. Was it "unethical"? Again NO. He bought a specimen and the rules of the seller were that he had to shoot it. Of course he will not be bragging to anyone about the incredibly difficult "hunt" he had - he's just displaying the animal as an example of his work. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rhino Posted March 26, 2007 Report Share Posted March 26, 2007 Re: Appropriate High Fence Thread!!!! [ QUOTE ] Personally, I have no problem with large tracts of land enclosed in a high fence. A 5000 acre parcel that is high fenced and all wooded is harder to hunt and more sporting than an unfenced river bottom that is surrounded by miles of fields. Each circumstance is different. I don't have a blanket statement or one size fits all for or against. [/ QUOTE ] Well said AJ. No argument here. [ QUOTE ] Do the animals inside the high fence even know they're fenced in? Do they act any differently than they would otherwise? If the answer to those questions is NO, then what's the problem? [/ QUOTE ] Another good point that I agree with. No problem here Texan_Til_I_Die. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom2008 Posted March 26, 2007 Report Share Posted March 26, 2007 Re: Appropriate High Fence Thread!!!! [ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] Personally, I have no problem with large tracts of land enclosed in a high fence. A 5000 acre parcel that is high fenced and all wooded is harder to hunt and more sporting than an unfenced river bottom that is surrounded by miles of fields. Each circumstance is different. I don't have a blanket statement or one size fits all for or against. [/ QUOTE ] Well said AJ. No argument here. [ QUOTE ] Do the animals inside the high fence even know they're fenced in? Do they act any differently than they would otherwise? If the answer to those questions is NO, then what's the problem? [/ QUOTE ] Another good point that I agree with. No problem here Texan_Til_I_Die. [/ QUOTE ] I will have to agree also. I see nothing wrong with a high fence hunt if there is a lot of acerage for animals to roam on and live a normal life. There is a big difference between high fence and penned hunts. Atleast to me it is different. High fence to me is more like a very large tract of land that has a high fence around it allowing certain animals to stay in. A penned hunt is a very small area that you can basically have your pick on what animal you want and be sure you will have that animal down no matter what. If you think about it some places cannot have exotic animals running around everywhere. For the example the african animals that are in the U.S. are not allowed to roam free everywhere in the U.S. They are put on high fenced ranches so they do not escape into unknown lands. Oh and Buckee your post was excellent also. You have some great points too. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rossman Posted March 27, 2007 Author Report Share Posted March 27, 2007 Re: Appropriate High Fence Thread!!!! [ QUOTE ] Rossman, you brought our pm out in the open, so I will just save time and reply to you here. As long as this remains civil, I see no reason for it not to remain. Just remember, you can not force your views on everyone and I imagine not everyone will have the same view as you, so don't get to upset if you get opinions that don't agree with you. [/ QUOTE ] I'm not upset at all. I know some of the things I write come across as arrogant and/or being upset. That's the problem with writing it, you can't show true feeling. I respect everyones opinion and will never expect to force my views onto others. I'm glad we were able to disceuss this civily. Now, to me any fence that prohibits animals to escape or flee from a hunter is high fence. And to me it is not appropriate to hunt in. In NY, there are 150 acre Elk farm enclosures that people can pay to kill an elk. After hunting big mountains out west, I believe it is a darn shame to put an elk in this situation. It is immoral and unethical. An elk is a magnificent animal that runs miles after being spooked. But in an enclosure, the elk runs into a fence? It's just not right. Other animals like mule deer, rams and goats fall into the same catagory. It's not fair is wrong, "to me". I do get upset hearing that these types of hunts still go on. Were supposed to be hunters. And being a hunter should mean preserving the rights and integrity of the animals we hunt. That means giving them "fair chase" options to get away and live. Hunting is not just killing an animal, it's about respecting the animals we hunt. And giving the animal a chance to get away. Hunting would not be fun or enjoyable if I killed an animal everytime out. Thanks for your comments, and I do respect everyones opinion. This is just mine!!!! --rossman Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
popgun Posted March 29, 2007 Report Share Posted March 29, 2007 Re: Appropriate High Fence Thread!!!! Assume that the drawing represents a 2000 acre High Fenced Operation, with a river running through it and a pond in the center. The black lines are the high fence, The brown is the access road, The yellow is feed locations, The green is trees and heavy cover, The red squares are hunter locations and the Orange lines represent access gates. The black pen on the far right is a breeding pen. 2000 acres sounds like a fair piece of land, and it would be advertised as fair chase. The cross fencing is not continuous, so none of the game is contained to any one area; they are free to roam anywhere they wish. This drawing would give an opportunity to 14 shooters without anyone being in the way of another person’s shot. 2000 acres divided by 7 equals about 286 acres for each section. The way this is blocked off, each shooter would have a good chance at a shot within 150 yards. Even if you imagine this same ground at 10000 acres, the game within the confined area still have no where to go without being within range of a shooter, because if the area was 10000 acres instead of 2000, there could be space for 5 times more shooters, or now 70 shooters waiting for their dream buck. This isn’t the way I choose to take any game. ….popgun Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
elkoholic Posted March 29, 2007 Report Share Posted March 29, 2007 Re: Appropriate High Fence Thread!!!! I do not agree with the "if it's legal, it's okay" malarkey, nor the "divided we fall" theory. We can not forget that we are in the minority and any form of hunting that gives the perception of being unethical is as damaging to the image of hunting as the slob "hunters" who get caught breaking the law. Standing behind. and supporting, something that will pull us down the crapper is not a wise decision in my opinion. I have great doubt that any "commercial" high fenced hunting operation is fair chase. If you want to buy a chance at shooting an animal at such an operation go for it, just do not call it hunting. Those Texas hunts where they spread food along a roadway or under a tree stand and any other natural food source is virtually nonexistent are probably among the worst. Legal, maybe. Hunting, no. Ethical, maybe. Perception of the non-hunting public, well, what do you think? Who is going to control the future of hunting? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Texan_Til_I_Die Posted March 29, 2007 Report Share Posted March 29, 2007 Re: Appropriate High Fence Thread!!!! Wow popgun, I've never seen (or even heard of) anything like that??? Is that something they do "up north"? Every place I've seen that was high fenced, was just the perimeter. Keep in mind that this fencing costs between $12,000 and $14,000 per mile. You're not going to see a lot of extra fencing at that price. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
buckee Posted March 29, 2007 Report Share Posted March 29, 2007 Re: Appropriate High Fence Thread!!!! [ QUOTE ] Wow popgun, I've never seen (or even heard of) anything like that??? Is that something they do "up north"? Every place I've seen that was high fenced, was just the perimeter. Keep in mind that this fencing costs between $12,000 and $14,000 per mile. You're not going to see a lot of extra fencing at that price. [/ QUOTE ] I think he made it up to make his point Here is an aerial picture of a 320 acre High fence ranch, along with a few pictures from the ground. Even only 320 acres is a lot of acres in this type of thick brush. Topo On ground Just thought some of you would appreciate the view Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
popgun Posted March 29, 2007 Report Share Posted March 29, 2007 Re: Appropriate High Fence Thread!!!! You're right buckee, I was just trying to make a point. As for the cost of the fencing. Why would the cost of the fencing be cost prohibitive when they are selling $10,000. (+) animals? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
_MD_ Posted March 30, 2007 Report Share Posted March 30, 2007 Re: Appropriate High Fence Thread!!!! I just can't call this hunting. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rossman Posted March 30, 2007 Author Report Share Posted March 30, 2007 Re: Appropriate High Fence Thread!!!! How could anyone call this hunting? It just makes me sick!!!! It's just plain old killing!!!! Not hunting.... What I would like to know? Is, where the heck is the skill? I don't care if it's a 20acre or 1000 acre enclosure, it's not hunting!!!!! --rossman Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
buckee Posted March 30, 2007 Report Share Posted March 30, 2007 Re: Appropriate High Fence Thread!!!! Question If these elk are standing on the other side of the fence, looking into the fenced in area, is it ethical and fair chase to shoot them? Be honest now I have a very good reason for asking this, which I'll explain later Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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