okiedog Posted March 30, 2007 Report Share Posted March 30, 2007 Re: Appropriate High Fence Thread!!!! [ QUOTE ] I have a very good reason for asking this, which I'll explain later [/ QUOTE ] I think I know where you are going with this. I started to ask the same question. The city I work in has a deer pen in the park. During the time around the rut (and alot of other times) there are always native deer gathered up around the outside of the fence checking out the other deer inside the fence. Something like that would also make for a so called "easy" target on the outside of the fence, even though those deer are considered "fair chase". Just my 2 cents. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rossman Posted March 30, 2007 Author Report Share Posted March 30, 2007 Re: Appropriate High Fence Thread!!!! [ QUOTE ] Question If these elk are standing on the other side of the fence, looking into the fenced in area, is it ethical and fair chase to shoot them? Be honest now I have a very good reason for asking this, which I'll explain later [/ QUOTE ] As long as I'm not filming the hunt!!! Seriously, for me, I would shoot, because the animal is not confined inside an enclosure. There are many ways to look at it, but what we are discussing is a full fenced in enclosure which the animals can not escape. Plus, under the pope and young and/or boone and crocket any animal shot inside an enclosure will not constutute fair chase and can not be entered. --rossman Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
buckee Posted March 30, 2007 Report Share Posted March 30, 2007 Re: Appropriate High Fence Thread!!!! [ QUOTE ] Plus, under the pope and young and/or Boone and Crockett any animal shot inside an enclosure will not constitute fair chase and can not be entered. [/ QUOTE ] Yes, but those are private clubs basically for scoring purposes only. The only reason they don't think it's fair chase is obvious, and has nothing to do with the fence. It has to do with genetic breeding for bigger antlers. It's that man-made, and scientifically enhanced antler growth that they are opposed to, and rightly so. It's like their stance on Bow poundage (which they just changed a while ago). Private clubs can make their own standards for what's fair-chase and what isn't. A club cannot dictate to all hunters what is and isn't fair chase. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Valkrie1357 Posted March 31, 2007 Report Share Posted March 31, 2007 Re: Appropriate High Fence Thread!!!! Most places that many Bulls in one arrea wouldn't have the chance to get that big if they were in the Wild. How many years old are each of those Bulls 4 - 7 ??? Maybe older ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rossman Posted April 2, 2007 Author Report Share Posted April 2, 2007 Re: Appropriate High Fence Thread!!!! [ QUOTE ] Most places that many Bulls in one arrea wouldn't have the chance to get that big if they were in the Wild. How many years old are each of those Bulls 4 - 7 ??? Maybe older ? [/ QUOTE ] So, what's your point? There are some old bulls in the wilderness that die from old age before anyone even sees em. But, not many hunters want to put in the work to try and pack in a camp, find one, try and kill it then pack it out. The average hunter hunts less than 500 yards off the road. How it should be is the smarter, hard working hunter should kill better animals because he earned it. Now, you have a "killer" not a hunter that hunts behind a fence and kills a 360 bull. It's just not right!!!!!!!!!!! --rossman Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Texan_Til_I_Die Posted April 2, 2007 Report Share Posted April 2, 2007 Re: Appropriate High Fence Thread!!!! Don't get me started on B&C or P&Y standards for "fair chase". Those are the most convoluted set of rules ever thought up. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rossman Posted April 2, 2007 Author Report Share Posted April 2, 2007 Re: Appropriate High Fence Thread!!!! [ QUOTE ] Don't get me started on B&C or P&Y standards for "fair chase". Those are the most convoluted set of rules ever thought up. [/ QUOTE ] What's your issue with it? I don't understand? Is it because you can not enter any animal if it is killed inside an enclosure? Please explain!!!!--rossman Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Texan_Til_I_Die Posted April 2, 2007 Report Share Posted April 2, 2007 Re: Appropriate High Fence Thread!!!! I've pursued a world class mule deer (or elk, or whatever) across a mountain all day. I finally catch up to it with 2 minutes of legal shooting time left. The mule deer jumps into a lake and starts to swim across. My only option is to shoot the deer as it's swimming. Guess what - that buck is not eligable for entry into the books because it wasn't "fair chase". Even though I've tracked it across 3 miles of mountainside and 3000 feet of elevation change. Or how about this. I track a monster elk for miles, then finally catch up to him just before dark. He's on the other side of a canyon and struggling through deep snow. If I shoot him in the snow, he's not eligable for the books either. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
popgun Posted April 2, 2007 Report Share Posted April 2, 2007 Re: Appropriate High Fence Thread!!!! This isn't such a good example in my book. [ QUOTE ] I've pusued a world class mule deer (or elk, or whatever) across a mountain all day. I finally catch up to it with 2 minutes of legal shooting time left. The mule deer jumps into a lake and starts to swim across. My only option is to shoot the deer as it's swimming. Guess what - that buck is not eligable for entry into the books because it wasn't "fair chase". Even though I've tracked it across 3 miles of mountainside and 3000 feet of elevation change. [/ QUOTE ] In Arkansas, this would not only be ineligible, but also very illegal to take one swimming. I wasn't even aware that this practice would be legal anywhere. ....popgun Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rossman Posted April 3, 2007 Author Report Share Posted April 3, 2007 Re: Appropriate High Fence Thread!!!! [ QUOTE ] I've pursued a world class mule deer (or elk, or whatever) across a mountain all day. I finally catch up to it with 2 minutes of legal shooting time left. The mule deer jumps into a lake and starts to swim across. My only option is to shoot the deer as it's swimming. Guess what - that buck is not eligable for entry into the books because it wasn't "fair chase". Even though I've tracked it across 3 miles of mountainside and 3000 feet of elevation change. Or how about this. I track a monster elk for miles, then finally catch up to him just before dark. He's on the other side of a canyon and struggling through deep snow. If I shoot him in the snow, he's not eligable for the books either. [/ QUOTE ] So, what's wrong with not shooting a muley if it is in the water. He got away, that's the great thing about fair chase!!!! If you were in a fence, that deer would be dead. Looks like you just proved my point!!!! I guess they were OK examples. Do you think you should kill an animal everytime out? I've hunted elk upwards around 13,000 feet and failed. Am I upset that I didn't get anything? Heck no!!! I would rather get nothing while hunting with bloody feet in the wilderness with archery tackle than kill something from an erected blind inside a darn fence!!!!!! But that's me!!!!--rossman Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rhino Posted April 3, 2007 Report Share Posted April 3, 2007 Re: Appropriate High Fence Thread!!!! [ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] Don't get me started on B&C or P&Y standards for "fair chase". Those are the most convoluted set of rules ever thought up. [/ QUOTE ] What's your issue with it? I don't understand? Is it because you can not enter any animal if it is killed inside an enclosure? Please explain!!!!--rossman [/ QUOTE ] How about B&C's new rule regarding using specific types of trail cameras to aid in taking a book class buck. If I understand it correctly killing a buck by using those trail cameras or cameras that feed pictures (via email, etc.) of that buck from the field to your computer would make that buck ineligible for the book. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
buckee Posted April 3, 2007 Report Share Posted April 3, 2007 Re: Appropriate High Fence Thread!!!! According to P&Y, none of the deer I shot in my first 10 years of bowhunting were fairchase, because I was using a 70# bow. I'm not going to let these clubs dictate to me what is fair, or ethical. [ QUOTE ] kill something from an erected blind inside a darn fence!!!!!! [/ QUOTE ] Are you against blinds and treestands too?? I mean, after all, fence or no fence, when using a blind or treestand, the game comes to you, you don't go to them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wtnhunt Posted April 3, 2007 Report Share Posted April 3, 2007 Re: Appropriate High Fence Thread!!!! Wonder why it is not surprising to me to see this up again. I stand by my opinion that I have stated many times in these forums that I am not going to cast judgement on or be one to attempt to determine if a high fenced hunt is immoral or unethical granted it is a large area high fenced operation. I would imagine in a large enough area under the right circumstances, a high fenced operation might offer no guarantees whatsoever that you would even ever see an animal. Now inside a small enclosure where there is no place for the animal to hide, I do not hardly think that is right, but even still it is not my place to look down my nose at those who would participate in that type of thing. I do not think it is wise for anyone to bash those who do as it only further separates us and gives that much more fuel to those who want to take away our rights. Question that arises from this, is what do you consider to be a large enough area? I would think on anything over 3000 acres, given there is a considerable amount of cover and available free sources of food for the animals to elude the hunters, that it would be pretty fair. Don't remember all the specifics, but there had been a study years ago where several pro hunters were inside a one sq mile enclosure and they were watched from an observation tower. Surprisingly from my recollection of the article I read this in, no hunters saw these deer in this pen, but the observants noted that some deer circled around behind the hunters. The deer used their ability to use their surroundings to go unseen. Would I ever hunt a high fence? Honestly don't know, but am not going to bash anyone or put them down in any way because they do. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rossman Posted April 3, 2007 Author Report Share Posted April 3, 2007 Re: Appropriate High Fence Thread!!!! [ QUOTE ] According to P&Y, none of the deer I shot in my first 10 years of bowhunting were fairchase, because I was using a 70# bow. I'm not going to let these clubs dictate to me what is fair, or ethical. [ QUOTE ] kill something from an erected blind inside a darn fence!!!!!! [/ QUOTE ] Are you against blinds and treestands too?? I mean, after all, fence or no fence, when using a blind or treestand, the game comes to you, you don't go to them. [/ QUOTE ] You know what I mean!!! If you want me to lay it out "elementarily" for you I will. Bottom line, it is a shame to kill any game animal inside a fence. I don't really know what to say. Now we heven have the moderators changin the subject and making excuses for high fence hunts. It is really a shame!!!!!!!! I guess I'm through!!!!!--Rossman Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom2008 Posted April 3, 2007 Report Share Posted April 3, 2007 Re: Appropriate High Fence Thread!!!! [ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] According to P&Y, none of the deer I shot in my first 10 years of bowhunting were fairchase, because I was using a 70# bow. I'm not going to let these clubs dictate to me what is fair, or ethical. [ QUOTE ] kill something from an erected blind inside a darn fence!!!!!! [/ QUOTE ] Are you against blinds and treestands too?? I mean, after all, fence or no fence, when using a blind or treestand, the game comes to you, you don't go to them. [/ QUOTE ] You know what I mean!!! If you want me to lay it out "elementarily" for you I will. Bottom line, it is a shame to kill any game animal inside a fence. I don't really know what to say. Now we heven have the moderators changin the subject and making excuses for high fence hunts. It is really a shame!!!!!!!! I guess I'm through!!!!!--Rossman [/ QUOTE ] The moderators and other people are coming up with some very good arguements and obviously you can't give an answer. You keep saying the same thing over and over again and its not really proving your point. I noticed you only pick out things that you can actually say something about off the top of your head. What about the whole point that Buckee brought up about the animals that cannot be let to roam free through North America? Why can't you answer the question about the size of the land? You keep saying "it is a shame to kill any game animal inside a fence", but you are not looking at the type of situtations with high fence hunting in any other way than that is absolutley wrong. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
elkoholic Posted April 3, 2007 Report Share Posted April 3, 2007 Re: Appropriate High Fence Thread!!!! To begin with, I will refer you to my first post on this subject. It is all about perception, even amongst hunters there is a perception of what "high fenced" hunting entails. I personally have seen a high fenced hunt area set up by a local elk farm. It encompassed about 150 acres of fairly thick cover. A "hunter" would pay him $10,000.00 to $20,000.00 (depending on the size rack) to "hunt" a trophy bull. These elk were born and raised, that is, hand fed, on his ranch and a couple of days before the "hunt" were moved to the "hunting" enclosure. These elk would come up to the fence to greet you and lick your hand. The proud "hunters" were always successful and, I am sure, glad to have a trophy mount on their wall. Fortunately, this type of thing was outlawed in our state. The bad news is, if you mention a high fenced hunt situation, this is what a lot of people think of. While all high fenced hunting opportunities are not like that, the perception is that high fenced hunting is unethical and a black eye for all hunting. The likes of Jimmy Houston and Troy Gentry do not help. Show a non-hunting (the majority) individual a video of someone shooting a deer feeding on cracked corn dumped on a road on a high fenced Texas ranch and then ask them if hunting should be legal. Where do you think they will cast their vote? It does not matter if it is fair-chase, ethical or legal at the time, their vote can make all hunting illegal. Think about it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wtnhunt Posted April 3, 2007 Report Share Posted April 3, 2007 Re: Appropriate High Fence Thread!!!! You start this thread and are then going to say you are through? Last time this came up, someone maybe was me, dont remember, even raised the idea of an island to you, and you said it was different. Really if animals are confined by barriers man made or natural what is the big deal? Barriers are barriers, I am to assume you will not hunt a funnel or pinch point either? Is it unfair to hunt animals where they are naturally forced to use an area for travel? Think by the way of thinking you are displaying here, that you would agree that you think that too is unethical What really is the difference? Personally I really honestly could care less about books and about what they say fair chase is. I determine my own opinions and do not count on how a book rule views practices to determine my views of ethical and moral hunting practices. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
buckee Posted April 3, 2007 Report Share Posted April 3, 2007 Re: Appropriate High Fence Thread!!!! Good point about funnels and such William. I was saving that for later. Didn't want to throw to much in here at once...LOL My buddy Ken and I hunt a very small pice of property, maybe 10 acres at the most. The owner of the property has his house, sheds, etc, etc, all surrounded with high fence to keep the deer and bears out. We hunt the outside of his personal enclosed area of his land and hhunt the rest. There is native land to the east, powerlines to the north, river and town on the other side to the south, and his high-fence to the West. It is a natural and un-natural funnel, and when I still-hunt it and have Ken sitting somewhere. We get deer sneaking around us all day long, without ever leaving the property. Is it fair chase....you bet it is....LOL Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Finn Posted April 3, 2007 Report Share Posted April 3, 2007 Re: Appropriate High Fence Thread!!!! Someone I know owns a 600 acre high fence operation. The guys who come there have money and no time, but like to see and shoot deer. He charges $400 per person and $10 per inch of horn. How many people do you all know that hunt a 600 acre patch of woods? Not many I know. That's a big chunk of land. 2 years ago, the owner asked me to shoot a couple does....I took Casey and said we'd be back in a half hour. It snowed about 6 inches of the wet, clingy snow, the night before we went out. We drove the 4 wheeler around this place for 2 hours and didn't see a deer and barely a track. This is northern Wis swamp land...tag alders, balsams and water. Not open pasture land with deer lounging around. Now, if a guy just wants to kill something and sits where he feeds them, it's a piece of cake to shoot something. Staying away from the feed, these deer aren't pets and make it more than sporting. In my opinion. There are people who will never accept anything but the way they hunt...no problem. Remember though, your opinion is just as right as my opinion. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
buckee Posted April 3, 2007 Report Share Posted April 3, 2007 Re: Appropriate High Fence Thread!!!! Another farm I hunt occasionally, (but so does everyone else and their brother), has approx 200 acres, but 4/5 of it is fields. The rest is bush and hedgerows. I could still-hunt there all day, and have deer walk around me all day long, without fleeing to the neighbouring property, high-fence or no high-fence. This whole "high-fence, game can't escape, aren't free to roam, not fair-chase" argument is pretty lame if ya ask me (which you did). It's just not a legitimate argument when you're talking about many of the game species in there having a home range of a few square miles anyway. If you ask me, it's not about the fence at all that gets folks all worked up over these places. It's like stated above, the little stories we hear about tame deer, food piles with abundant trophies to choose from, small enclosures, made for releasing shoot-em-up tame trophies, engineered genetics, etc, etc, that have nothing whatsoever to do with the High-fence per say, and more to do, with what goes on inside these places, many of which are pretty legit. You can't put a blanket judgement on all of these places, and say they are all unethical, or unfair chase. Some places will even give you the option of guide or no guide, which of course would make the hunt all yours and a lot more challenging, considering your on a strange piece of property to begin with. The part I don't like and we should all be a bit concerned about, is that all this great hunting land is being privatized, which on one hand is good for the owner who is capitalizing on free-enterprise, but bad for us permission only type hunters who are losing land to this sort of privatization. Large tracks of what used to be, every-ones hunting spot, are being bought up and privatized. That's the legitimate whine, not the dang fence, unless your talking small pen type enclosures. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
texastrophies Posted April 3, 2007 Report Share Posted April 3, 2007 Re: Appropriate High Fence Thread!!!! OK guys, (no one in particular) Rossman is getting jumped on pretty hard here, just remember, he is entitled to his opinion, also. We can agree to disagree. Keep it civil and no personal attacks. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Texan_Til_I_Die Posted April 3, 2007 Report Share Posted April 3, 2007 Re: Appropriate High Fence Thread!!!! Just as an example of how almost any type of hunting could be presented as unethical - let me throw this at you... How can anyone "hunt" with a guide and consider themselves a true hunter. After all, that guide basically lives in the woods with the deer (or elk, or whatever) and knows where they're going to be and what time they'll be there. "Hunting" with a guide is a terrible and disgusting practice and should never ever be allowed to happen. "Hunting" with a guide should really just be called "hiking and killing", NOT hunting. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wtnhunt Posted April 4, 2007 Report Share Posted April 4, 2007 Re: Appropriate High Fence Thread!!!! [ QUOTE ] OK guys, (no one in particular) Rossman is getting jumped on pretty hard here, just remember, he is entitled to his opinion, also. We can agree to disagree. Keep it civil and no personal attacks. [/ QUOTE ] All things considered, think this discussion has been pretty civil. Like said above somewhere, everyone is entitled their opinion, that does not mean your opinion is right making what I do unetchical, nor does it make my opinion right and make you wrong for holding those opinions. Just remember sometimes things are not always as they may seem, holding an opinion on something without full knowing about it and casting judgement on others based solely on your opinions may well be somewhat acting or speaking out of ignorance similarly to what happened with Jim Zumbo. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Finn Posted April 4, 2007 Report Share Posted April 4, 2007 Re: Appropriate High Fence Thread!!!! [ QUOTE ] Just as an example of how almost any type of hunting could be presented as unethical - let me throw this at you... How can anyone "hunt" with a guide and consider themselves a true hunter. After all, that guide basically lives in the woods with the deer (or elk, or whatever) and knows where they're going to be and what time they'll be there. "Hunting" with a guide is a terrible and disgusting practice and should never ever be allowed to happen. "Hunting" with a guide should really just be called "hiking and killing", NOT hunting. [/ QUOTE ] Exactly...great point. I hope to hire a guide someday to hunt in Sask Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rhino Posted April 4, 2007 Report Share Posted April 4, 2007 Re: Appropriate High Fence Thread!!!! [ QUOTE ] How can anyone "hunt" with a guide and consider themselves a true hunter. After all, that guide basically lives in the woods with the deer (or elk, or whatever) and knows where they're going to be and what time they'll be there. "Hunting" with a guide is a terrible and disgusting practice and should never ever be allowed to happen. "Hunting" with a guide should really just be called "hiking and killing", NOT hunting. [/ QUOTE ] Seems to me that this issue should be a seperately titled topic rather than sort of a hijacking of this one. Maybe better in another room too since it's an overall issue regarding any type of guided hunt for any game. I'll wait to comment on it if it's posted as such. That is after I get back from guiding (without $ compensation) a 12 year old boy turkey hunting. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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