Texan_Til_I_Die Posted April 20, 2007 Report Share Posted April 20, 2007 OJR said: If a person qualifies for a concealed permit, they should be able to carry them anywhere! The only place that should be barred would be a jail or prison! That is EXACTLY correct. Anything else goes against the intent of the Constitution of the United States and should not even be considered. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Hunter36 Posted April 20, 2007 Report Share Posted April 20, 2007 Hey guys Im gonna throw my two cents in here!!! Im a 21 yr old college student and I dont drink dont party. This summer I am planning on getting my carry permit and feel the need to ask why cant I defend myself every where I go. Is my life less valuable at a restraunt then on the sidewalk, it doesnt make sense. Yes there are always people who do stupid stuff but most people who go through the leagal steps will continue to follow laws. I thing that is totally over looked in this situation is that it is ILLEGAL TO KILL PEOPLE with a gun or not. more gun control is crap. I personally feel safer at this campus, with the majority of the population being hardworking country boys most probably have a gun or two in their vehical in the parking lot as do I, than a campus with a no gun rule. I see no reason that if you go through the steps of obtaining a permit why you cant carry them almost every where (I understand courts and banks) P.S. I feel more comfortable with alot of 21 year olds carrying than alot of the so called "mature" people I know. Dont judge college students "maturity" or anyones by age. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Newarcher Posted April 20, 2007 Report Share Posted April 20, 2007 Faculty, staff, teachers, campus police....definitely. Kids? Heck no. First, college age kids are way too immature--statistically--to handle it. Second, way too much drama going on relating to boyfriends, girlfriends, rival frats/sorr's, etc. for guns to be introduced. Third, most campuses are way too open...meaning dorm rooms. A licensed carrier may leave their room open, or better yet a thoughtless roommate might, and the gun could end up stolen or in the wrong hands. Lastly, too much drinking goes on on campuses and for any carry to be effective you would have to keep it with you. Yet you find yourself going to a last second party and voila, broken laws. I gurantee that if you were to allow it, the death toll would quickly surpass last week. New Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Newarcher Posted April 20, 2007 Report Share Posted April 20, 2007 HarvDog said: We certainly need to be careful about stereotyping here. It is unfortunate that college students have this kind of an image but I honestly believe that there are a great deal of smart, mature, responsible young men and women on the campuses of our colleges and universities. Don’t misunderstand…I am not naive enough to believe that drinking and many immature behaviors don’t occur. Unfortunately, this is everywhere from colleges to businesses and even to the military as Clay mentioned. Specifically regarding alcohol, I strongly believe that we need to have much stronger enforcement and punishment for those breaking drinking laws (e.g. underage, DUI, etc.). Anyway, in regards to concealed carry, I feel that it should be permitted on campuses for those with a valid concealed carry license. As a matter of fact, I don’t believe that should be as many restrictions as there currently are. In Virginia, concealed carry is prohibited: • onto the premises of any restaurant or club with a license to sell and serve alcoholic beverages. • on private property when prohibited by the owner of the property, or where posted as prohibited. • a place of worship while a meeting for religious purposes is being held at such place, without good and sufficient reason. • in a Courthouse. • on school property. Exemptions to this statute include a person who has a valid concealed handgun permit and possesses a concealed handgun while in a motor vehicle in a parking lot, traffic circle, or other means of vehicular ingress or egress to the school. • in an airport terminal. I can certainly understand courthouses and airports to some extent but, in my opinion, many of these simply do not make sense. For example, in the case of a restaurant or club that serves alcohol, you are permitted to open carry instead. Shouldn’t we be more concerned about someone who has been drinking being able to see a handgun on someone’s hip? I think it makes more sense to allow ONLY concealed carry in places like this. Law-abiding citizens who have obtained a concealed carry license have done so in order to protect themselves in all types of situations and locations. Right, however most laws aren't aimed at the majority who will never be affected by them. Most college students are responsible and I wouldn't have any problems with them carrying. Yet the few who would get licenses and then cause problems would ruin it for the rest. 80/20 rule. Man, you guys are LUCKY in Virginia.....you don't have that annoying public gathering place rule. Our attorney general attempted to clairfy with an "UNOFFICIAL" pronouncment that public gathering place means somewhere that people gather for a specific purpose. For instance, a mall (in his UNOFFICIAL statement) isn't considered by him to be off limits unless there is a specific function (i.e. beauty pagent) while you are there. That's all well and good but that doesn't prevent some uninformed cop from arresting you and some anti-gun district attorney from prosecuting you. Nor does his unofficial opinion count for anything. I make it a point to ask cops from varying jurisdictions about concealed carry and have received opinions from "you can't carry in any buildings anywhere, public or not" to "malls and movie theatres are okay" to "malls will get you arrested". So more or less it depends on whether the wife/husband made the cop mad that morning as to whether you get arrested in GA. It's a crap clause. I believe that GA has a good law (excepting the public gather place provision) to keep guns out of areas where, historically, problems happen: churches, bars, sporting events, political rallies, where alcohol is served, and so on. I wish they would clarify problematic areas like malls and movie theaters as specifically okay to carry in. My family was caught up in a brawl amongst urban hip hop thug gang types in the food court at a mall. I was honestly surprised that no guns were pulled by these thugs that were brawling and running over families etc. I wasn't armed because I didn't want to take a chance at being arrested on GA's ambiguous public gathering place. There is no final authority for us to deem these areas okay. JMHO, New Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HarvDog Posted April 20, 2007 Report Share Posted April 20, 2007 Newarcher said: Faculty, staff, teachers, campus police....definitely. Kids? Heck no. First, college age kids are way too immature--statistically--to handle it. Second, way too much drama going on relating to boyfriends, girlfriends, rival frats/sorr's, etc. for guns to be introduced. Third, most campuses are way too open...meaning dorm rooms. A licensed carrier may leave their room open, or better yet a thoughtless roommate might, and the gun could end up stolen or in the wrong hands. Lastly, too much drinking goes on on campuses and for any carry to be effective you would have to keep it with you. Yet you find yourself going to a last second party and voila, broken laws. I gurantee that if you were to allow it, the death toll would quickly surpass last week. New So, I'm not looking to argue here but... ...I am assuming by "kids", you mean 18 - 22 year olds which just happens to be the same age classification as many of the Soldiers and Marines fighting and defending our country and freedom in several different conflicts oversees right now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Newarcher Posted April 20, 2007 Report Share Posted April 20, 2007 HarvDog said: So, I'm not looking to argue here but... ...I am assuming by "kids", you mean 18 - 22 year olds which just happens to be the same age classification as many of the Soldiers and Marines fighting and defending our country and freedom in several different conflicts oversees right now. Well, I ain't looking to throw down either, BUT: First, you must be 21 to get a carry license in most places except Texas where one is issued with a child's birth certificate! I think Maine and a couple more allow 18 year olds to get one. Yeppers, those kids. Except there is a huge difference between a drunkard college kid and a member of the United States military. Few compare but you bring up another exception in my no guns at college....military folks would also be okay. I think that allowing guns on campus with kids will do more to restrict our rights to carry than not. Has a CCW carrier stopped the VT massacre, the anti-gun media would have painted a picture of a wild west cowboy killing the shooter when the police could have ended it calmly. There is no winning. But I stand by my statement that the drama, drinking, immaturity of campus life on many fronts is just too much. We would lose more kids than we saved with that law. JMHO, New Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wtnhunt Posted April 20, 2007 Report Share Posted April 20, 2007 Some interesting things to consider here. There was a statistic on college students who admitted they considered suicide, the number was like 6 percent. Where does that fit into this puzzle? How many kids are going to KNOW without any question who does and does not have the concealed carry permit? Who would know if a person carrying was carrying legitimately, and who was not? If you have kids carrying who are not supposed to be, WHO confronts them? When an event arises and someone suspects that someone is carrying who is not supposed to be and they take them out thinking that the person is weird and has bad intentions, only later to find out that the person did have a concealed carry permit, who will be to blame, and will that person be charged with murder for thinking they were defending others? A lot of hypothetical possible scenarios could continue on forever, but those are a few that quickly come to mind that I could see likely potential for. Not to mention the potential for the kid in the heat of the moment domestic issues that could arise that might be settled more violently than with a fist fight. Easy access for students in my opinion just might not be the answer. If you give the right to carry concealed at colleges, you might be asking for other troubles to follow. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Hunter36 Posted April 20, 2007 Report Share Posted April 20, 2007 wtnhunt you bring up good points but some are to broad to just throw on college situations. Who knows anywhere who is legal to conceal and carry? How many people in the general public "KNOW WITHOUT QUESTION". Suicide doesnt fit in at all, so why ask the question? Whats the difference if those same college kids that carry off campus carry on campus? People are more mature "on campus" (our schools dry) at a small school like mine than "off campus" And most big college campuses are more like cities or are in cities anyways, with the general public able to come in and out at their own will. I think its sad that things cant be settled between people these days without a stabbing or a shooting. Even fist fights have turned into a sort of my friends againts your friends thing. What happened to standing toe to toe and getting it over with. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Newarcher Posted April 20, 2007 Report Share Posted April 20, 2007 Hunter36 said: wtnhunt you bring up good points but some are to broad to just throw on college situations. Who knows anywhere who is legal to conceal and carry? How many people in the general public "KNOW WITHOUT QUESTION". Suicide doesnt fit in at all, so why ask the question? Whats the difference if those same college kids that carry off campus carry on campus? People are more mature "on campus" (our schools dry) at a small school like mine than "off campus" And most big college campuses are more like cities or are in cities anyways, with the general public able to come in and out at their own will. I think its sad that things cant be settled between people these days without a stabbing or a shooting. Even fist fights have turned into a sort of my friends againts your friends thing. What happened to standing toe to toe and getting it over with. For me, it goes to the heart of the statistical evidence of alcohol, drugs, and other drama that tends to happen on campuses. Keep in mind we aren't talking about the majority of students (I went to GA State and rode MARTA--oh how I wished I had a gun sometimes). What we are arguing over is the number of numskulls that would sully the reputation of all CCW holders. All it would take is one CCW kid to kill another while drunk or over some girl and then it will be ratcheting down our rights. I am not indicting all college kids but just look at the issues that are on college campuses these days without guns. I shutter to think what would happen if guns were intro'd into the mix. New Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Clay008 Posted April 20, 2007 Report Share Posted April 20, 2007 Newarcher said: Well, I ain't looking to throw down either, BUT: Yeppers, those kids. Except there is a huge difference between a drunkard college kid and a member of the United States military. Few compare but you bring up another exception in my no guns at college....military folks would also be okay. But I stand by my statement that the drama, drinking, immaturity of campus life on many fronts is just too much. We would lose more kids than we saved with that law. JMHO, New I am sure those at Tech appreciate being appreciate being called drunkards until May 12 when they become engineers, accountants, dieticians, soldiers..... It appears there is a belief that all college kids do is hang out and drink beer and fight. According to your argument ROTC students at VT should be allowed to concealed carry but, not the other students on campus because the core students are thay much more mature. It good to give people responsibility it helps them grow up. You can't hold everyone's hand forever. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Clay008 Posted April 20, 2007 Report Share Posted April 20, 2007 wtnhunt said: Some interesting things to consider here. There was a statistic on college students who admitted they considered suicide, the number was like 6 percent. Where does that fit into this puzzle? How many kids are going to KNOW without any question who does and does not have the concealed carry permit? Who would know if a person carrying was carrying legitimately, and who was not? If you have kids carrying who are not supposed to be, WHO confronts them? When an event arises and someone suspects that someone is carrying who is not supposed to be and they take them out thinking that the person is weird and has bad intentions, only later to find out that the person did have a concealed carry permit, who will be to blame, and will that person be charged with murder for thinking they were defending others? A lot of hypothetical possible scenarios could continue on forever, but those are a few that quickly come to mind that I could see likely potential for. Not to mention the potential for the kid in the heat of the moment domestic issues that could arise that might be settled more violently than with a fist fight. Easy access for students in my opinion just might not be the answer. If you give the right to carry concealed at colleges, you might be asking for other troubles to follow. All of the hypotheticals listed above could happen to anyone at any point while they are carrying. I don't think you just take someone out for noticing they are carrying. They would have to act before you would have a reason to shoot them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Clay008 Posted April 20, 2007 Report Share Posted April 20, 2007 Newarcher said: For me, it goes to the heart of the statistical evidence of alcohol, drugs, and other drama that tends to happen on campuses. Keep in mind we aren't talking about the majority of students (I went to GA State and rode MARTA--oh how I wished I had a gun sometimes). What we are arguing over is the number of numskulls that would sully the reputation of all CCW holders. All it would take is one CCW kid to kill another while drunk or over some girl and then it will be ratcheting down our rights. I am not indicting all college kids but just look at the issues that are on college campuses these days without guns. I shutter to think what would happen if guns were intro'd into the mix. New There are probably over 25,000 students that live off campus all around Tech that have the same types of disputes involving the activities listed above. I don't think I have ever heard a CC holder shooting someone over any of these actions listed above. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wtnhunt Posted April 20, 2007 Report Share Posted April 20, 2007 Hunter36 said: wtnhunt you bring up good points but some are to broad to just throw on college situations. Who knows anywhere who is legal to conceal and carry? How many people in the general public "KNOW WITHOUT QUESTION". Suicide doesnt fit in at all, so why ask the question? Whats the difference if those same college kids that carry off campus carry on campus? People are more mature "on campus" (our schools dry) at a small school like mine than "off campus" And most big college campuses are more like cities or are in cities anyways, with the general public able to come in and out at their own will. I think its sad that things cant be settled between people these days without a stabbing or a shooting. Even fist fights have turned into a sort of my friends againts your friends thing. What happened to standing toe to toe and getting it over with. Actually my points are my opinions and I will stand by them. First off to not KNOW, you have persons carrying on campus where there are large numbers of people and everyone might ASSUME under the suggestions of allowing handguns that it is ok right??? If this person might have bad intentions who would ever know, everyone might think it is someone who has a concealed carry permit. If someone carrying was anywhere remotely close to what happened with the VT situation, could they have stopped it? Don't know, all speculation and hypothetical after the fact "what ifs" might suggest it might not have been as bad, but who knows, from what I am to understand it all happened so incredibly fast that there was really not much time for any type of reaction for anyone. Is it possible his killing spree might have been cut short? Sure it is possible, likely well who knows. Depression and suicide has EVERYTHING to do with this since it was apparently what drove this shooter to go to this extreme. With knowing that depression is an issue in college kids, just seems to me like a bad idea to make it that much easier for this type of thing to happen. Another point I have not seen here, and I have not read every reply, is that what kind of intimidation factor does it play for other students and even for teachers when there are kids packing in the classroom? Seems like it might make for potential edgy situations to me, but hey that is just my opinion. A hypothetical would be that I could kind of see where the proper type city girls might be in fear because some bearded scraggly guy(not the typical college student),in his 30's, who is quiet and keeps to himself, is going back and is in the classroom and opts to carry under what is being proposed here. Would that not make them feel somewhat uncomfortable? Don't know, but I would tend to think it might. Should they have to be subjected to that while they are trying to learn? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
snapper Posted April 20, 2007 Report Share Posted April 20, 2007 I got my carry permit when I turned 21 and haven't went into a drunken rampage when I had my gun....thats just stupid talk! 21 is the legal age to buy a handgun...your allowed to buy/drink alchol...die for your country...but your not mature enough to carry a handgun concealed??? I voted YES..should be allowed to carry anywhere if your legal. As for police/professors carrying...I have no problems with that...however, by the time police show up...its usally after the fact. Most professors prob. wouldn't carry anyways because of their left wing stance on guns...sad but true. Face it....a person with a gun can cause alot of damage if he/she chooses....and the only way to stop that person is with another gun. Someone said earlier about who would check for the permits...well, no one unless you did something wrong and the police discover the gun on you...then they would check for a permit. If someone is carrying without a permit...then they would be breaking the law. Lets look at reality...criminals don't care what the laws are....they only affect the honest folks. This sick puke of a person who did the shootings at VT wasn't allowed to have those guns on campus...didn't stop him because he didn't care. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
texastrophies Posted April 20, 2007 Report Share Posted April 20, 2007 Apparently it isn't completely necessary to have a CCW license in order to have a gun on campus now. Trust me, there are guns on all campuses now. The students that take the time and put forth the energy to get a CCW (besides us lucky ones in Texas born with them) for the most part are not going to be your trouble making students. The ones that are problems don't care if they have a license or not. They are still going to be problems. Not to many of your big time partiers/drunks are going to go to the trouble of getting a license. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wtnhunt Posted April 20, 2007 Report Share Posted April 20, 2007 One last thing on this, so what if Cho in his preperation went out and got his concealed carry permit? Looks as though he very well could have done that as easily as he got his firearms, with the system in that state not acknowledging that he was dangerous. Then what? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
snapper Posted April 20, 2007 Report Share Posted April 20, 2007 Lets understand one thing that alot of folks are missing...when we say "kids"...we are talking about 21 year olds! These aren't "kids", they maybe "students" but not "kids"! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Newarcher Posted April 20, 2007 Report Share Posted April 20, 2007 Clay008 said: I am sure those at Tech appreciate being appreciate being called drunkards until May 12 when they become engineers, accountants, dieticians, soldiers..... It appears there is a belief that all college kids do is hang out and drink beer and fight. According to your argument ROTC students at VT should be allowed to concealed carry but, not the other students on campus because the core students are thay much more mature. It good to give people responsibility it helps them grow up. You can't hold everyone's hand forever. You apparently must have gone to North Carolina instead of Duke because you apparently can't read! Actually, if you re-read my post you will see that I clearly said that most college kids are okay. Again, I will repeat, the small percentage that are trouble makers and might use the gun incorrectly would give everyone a bad name. All it would take is one drunken shooting by a kid licensed to carry and the media and the anti-gun crowds would pounce. Then no one would be able to carry anywhere. Sorry, but you apparently haven't been on a major college campus at night and/or before and after a football game. The stories about the fights, hazing, drinking, drugs, etc. are rampant, causing some colleges to dry out. Sorry but kids away at college do some absoultely dumb stuff--yes a small percentage--but add guns to the small percentage's antics and you will get all the guns taken away. At work, we have none of the drinking, drug, drama going on...because we are all mature by now. Gotta work, peace dude. New Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Newarcher Posted April 20, 2007 Report Share Posted April 20, 2007 snapper said: Lets understand one thing that alot of folks are missing...when we say "kids"...we are talking about 21 year olds! These aren't "kids", they maybe "students" but not "kids"! No no no, my friend. The true test of being over the hill is when you start calling college students kids. Several people here fit that description including me. New Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
snapper Posted April 20, 2007 Report Share Posted April 20, 2007 Quote Looks as though he very well could have done that as easily as he got his firearms, with the system in that state not acknowledging that he was dangerous. There is no way to stop someone from just going nuts and killing people. The police can't be everywhere all the time. IMO, if what I hear is true that a professor actually filed a report on this Cho person about his sanity and if he wasn't a US citizen...it seems to me that should have thrown a red flag for the police when the background check was taking place...someone dropped the ball on this one. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Newarcher Posted April 20, 2007 Report Share Posted April 20, 2007 snapper said: I got my carry permit when I turned 21 and haven't went into a drunken rampage when I had my gun....thats just stupid talk! 21 is the legal age to buy a handgun...your allowed to buy/drink alchol...die for your country...but your not mature enough to carry a handgun concealed??? I voted YES..should be allowed to carry anywhere if your legal. As for police/professors carrying...I have no problems with that...however, by the time police show up...its usally after the fact. Most professors prob. wouldn't carry anyways because of their left wing stance on guns...sad but true. Face it....a person with a gun can cause alot of damage if he/she chooses....and the only way to stop that person is with another gun. Someone said earlier about who would check for the permits...well, no one unless you did something wrong and the police discover the gun on you...then they would check for a permit. If someone is carrying without a permit...then they would be breaking the law. Lets look at reality...criminals don't care what the laws are....they only affect the honest folks. This sick puke of a person who did the shootings at VT wasn't allowed to have those guns on campus...didn't stop him because he didn't care. I would say that introducing guns into a college campus knowing the propensity for mischief and problems among college aged kids who live on campus is stupid talk. Careful with your words. I got my permit when I was 21 as well and haven't shot anyone....YET! However, the fact that you personally didn't do something stupid while drunk with your weapon doesn't mean that someone else will not. I doubt you would go to VT's campus and kill 30+ people but another gun owner DID. Now I would hope that a person willing to endure the process wouldn't be someone who would shoot up a party or an ex lover but you never know. I think statistics show that college campuses are areas where bad decision making regarding drinking, drugs, sex, miscief, fighting, etc. is higher than in the general population. I stand by my original point that the loss of life if you let guns on the campus as a policy--over say 10 years--would easily outpace what happened the other day. New Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wtnhunt Posted April 20, 2007 Report Share Posted April 20, 2007 snapper said: There is no way to stop someone from just going nuts and killing people. The police can't be everywhere all the time. IMO, if what I hear is true that a professor actually filed a report on this Cho person about his sanity and if he wasn't a US citizen...it seems to me that should have thrown a red flag for the police when the background check was taking place...someone dropped the ball on this one. Been saying that all along Greg, he never should have been loose on campus in the first place in my opinion. All the hypotheticals posted on both sides of this previously in this thread can kind of go both ways, who knows what might or might not have happened if this or that happened to be different. Easy to make assumptions. I actually voted that students and teachers should be allowed, but after thinking a little more about it, I am really just not so sure, and the more I think about it, the more I think it really might not be a great idea to let students carry and have posted my honest thoughts on that here. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Clay008 Posted April 20, 2007 Report Share Posted April 20, 2007 Newarcher said: You apparently must have gone to North Carolina instead of Duke because you apparently can't read! New That is awful to compare a Hokie to a Tar Heel or a Blue Devil. Hokie for life. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Newarcher Posted April 20, 2007 Report Share Posted April 20, 2007 Clay008 said: That is awful to compare a Hokie to a Tar Heel or a Blue Devil. Hokie for life. Well, in the first instance comarison with North Carolina...I agree, disparaging doesn't approach the term! As for comparing to a Dukie, no greater compliment can be served to you my friend! All in good fun! New Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Clay008 Posted April 20, 2007 Report Share Posted April 20, 2007 Newarcher said: Well, in the first instance comarison with North Carolina...I agree, disparaging doesn't approach the term! As for comparing to a Dukie, no greater compliment can be served to you my friend! All in good fun! New lol! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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