Choosing a church

[johnf]

Baptism is where our sins are washed away and we come in contact with the Blood of Christ and then he adds us to HIS Church.

Christ washed our sins away, not the water. If the water washes our sins away then Christ died for nothing. The water is for obedience, just like loving God, our brother, giving tithes and offerings, taking care of the widow, orphans and the poor.

We do it because we are commanded to. If we love God we will do His will. Baptism is certainly in His will, but is not a condition for salvation.

[Guest Turkey Fife]

asdf

John 3:16 is a good VS to prove we need Faith. However, Romans 10:9, 10 Teaches we need to Confess Christ [9] That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.

[10] For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. One cannot be Saved with out confessing Christ. And if you notice their is no mention of Repentance or Baptism. Does this mean they are not nessary? No! Luke 13:3 tells us if we don't Repent we will perish!

[Guest Turkey Fife]

asdf

Eph. 2:[8] For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

Here we are told we are saved by Grace not Faith Only. We are also told we are saved by HOPE,

Rom.8

[24] For we are saved by hope: but hope that is seen is not hope: for what a man seeth, why doth he yet hope for?but, not Hope Only! We must look at all the Bible not just One scripture, or Two, but all the bible.

[BamaTrae]

Christ washed our sins away, not the water. If the water washes our sins away then Christ died for nothing.

I think you guys actually agree for the most part, your'e just saying it differently. I'll try to explain what I mean. Anyone that believes in Christ would agree that Christ washes our sins away. The Bible is clear:

"and from Jesus Christ, the faithful witness, the firstborn from the dead, and the ruler over the kings of the earth. To Him who loved us and washed us from our sins in His own blood" - Revelation 1:5

I may be wrong, but I think you guys are thinking of two different aspects of washing away sins. Notice the link between the "what" and the "how" in the washing away of sins. It is most certainly Jesus who does the washing, He is the "what" but the "how" is His blood. And that blood is represented to us by the waters of baptism, remember what Jesus told Nicodemus...

"Jesus answered, “Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God." - John 3:5

So from what I can tell, baptism is a symbol that actually accomplishes that which it symbolizes, which is the literal washing away of sins.

"Then Peter said to them, “Repent, and let every one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit." - Acts 2:38

"And now why are you waiting? Arise and be baptized, and wash away your sins, calling on the name of the Lord." - Acts 22:16

Did that make any sense at all? Let me know what you think?

Thanks for the interesting study.

Trae

[johnf]

I think you guys actually agree for the most part, your'e just saying it differently. I'll try to explain what I mean. Anyone that believes in Christ would agree that Christ washes our sins away. The Bible is clear:

"and from Jesus Christ, the faithful witness, the firstborn from the dead, and the ruler over the kings of the earth. To Him who loved us and washed us from our sins in His own blood" - Revelation 1:5

I may be wrong, but I think you guys are thinking of two different aspects of washing away sins. Notice the link between the "what" and the "how" in the washing away of sins. It is most certainly Jesus who does the washing, He is the "what" but the "how" is His blood. And that blood is represented to us by the waters of baptism, remember what Jesus told Nicodemus...

"Jesus answered, “Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God." - John 3:5

So from what I can tell, baptism is a symbol that actually accomplishes that which it symbolizes, which is the literal washing away of sins.

Jesus is the living water that washes away sin. The water for baptisim signifies our rebirth, but it itself is only an act of obediance and nothing and an outward sign of our faith.

John 4:9-15

9The Samaritan woman said to him, "You are a Jew and I am a Samaritan woman. How can you ask me for a drink?" (For Jews do not associate with Samaritans.[a])

10Jesus answered her, "If you knew the gift of God and who it is that asks you for a drink, you would have asked him and he would have given you living water."

11"Sir," the woman said, "you have nothing to draw with and the well is deep. Where can you get this living water? 12Are you greater than our father Jacob, who gave us the well and drank from it himself, as did also his sons and his flocks and herds?"

13Jesus answered, "Everyone who drinks this water will be thirsty again, 14but whoever drinks the water I give him will never thirst. Indeed, the water I give him will become in him a spring of water welling up to eternal life."

15The woman said to him, "Sir, give me this water so that I won't get thirsty and have to keep coming here to draw water."

"Then Peter said to them, “Repent, and let every one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit." - Acts 2:38

Arrrg!!!! You got me on that one.

"And now why are you waiting? Arise and be baptized, and wash away your sins, calling on the name of the Lord." - Acts 22:16

But in this story Paul had already been converted on the road to Damascus. He was already a child of God otherwise he would still be called Saul. Why would he have to get saved again?

Acts 9:19-22 Saul spent several days with the disciples in Damascus. 20At once he began to preach in the synagogues that Jesus is the Son of God. 21All those who heard him were astonished and asked, "Isn't he the man who raised havoc in Jerusalem among those who call on this name? And hasn't he come here to take them as prisoners to the chief priests?" 22Yet Saul grew more and more powerful and baffled the Jews living in Damascus by proving that Jesus is the Christ.[a]

Did that make any sense at all? Let me know what you think?

Thanks for the interesting study.

Trae

I love a good debate. Thanks for making me think.

[johnf]

Eph. 2:[8] For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

Here we are told we are saved by Grace not Faith Only. We are also told we are saved by HOPE,

Rom.8

[24] For we are saved by hope: but hope that is seen is not hope: for what a man seeth, why doth he yet hope for?but, not Hope Only! We must look at all the Bible not just One scripture, or Two, but all the bible.

I don't see a difference between faith and hope.

Roget's New Millennium™ Thesaurus - Cite This SourceMain Entry: hopePart of Speech: verbDefinition: dream aboutSynonyms: anticipate, aspire, assume, await, believe, cherish, contemplate, count on, deem likely, depend on, desire, expect, feel confident, foresee, hang in*, have faith, hold, long for, pray, presume, promise oneself, rely, suppose, surmise, suspect, sweat*, sweat it*, take heart*, think to, trust, watch for, wish

[Guest Easymoney]

I am new here and I feel I have to response to this topic.

I am going to throw in a different approach.

Always remember Law and Grace doesn't, can't and will not mix. We are not under the law because Jesus fulfilled that. We are saved by the finished work of the cross plus nothing. All we have to do to be saved is believe that Christ died for our sins, was buried and then rose again the third day.

In reference to Acts 2:37: Look at who Peter is talking to. Acts 2:36 "Therefore let all the house of Israel" He is talking to jew only, they are still on covenant ground. No gentiles here. EVERY jew would have had to accepted the fact that Jesus was the Messiah.

And what does Peter tell them when they realize they have crucified the Messiah? Act 2:38. "Then Peter said unto them, 'Repent, and be baptized (the next two words are crucial) EVERY ONE of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the Holy Ghost. God is dealing with the WHOLE Nation of Israel. He deals with us one on one.

Another point before I continue. Look in Matthew, Mark, Luke and John and see what Jesus and others tell them what they need to do to be saved. It is believe that Jesus was the Son of God. Nothing about his death, burial and resurrection, because it had not happened yet.

Study your bible and look at Romans thru Hebrews which is Paul's Epistles and mainly to the gentiles (us), and there you will see the difference. Paul does not mention: Repent and be baptized. He alway states: Believe the Gospel which can be found in 1 Corinthians 15: 1-4. Plane and simple.

Find a church that preaches the true Gospel.

Faith in the finished work of the cross plus nothing.

Sorry for the long post, but I feel it is important and I hope I have not confused anyone.

Easymoney.

[johnf]

I am new here and I feel I have to response to this topic.

I am going to throw in a different approach.

Always remember Law and Grace doesn't, can't and will not mix. We are not under the law because Jesus fulfilled that. We are saved by the finished work of the cross plus nothing. All we have to do to be saved is believe that Christ died for our sins, was buried and then rose again the third day.

In reference to Acts 2:37: Look at who Peter is talking to. Acts 2:36 "Therefore let all the house of Israel" He is talking to jew only, they are still on covenant ground. No gentiles here. EVERY jew would have had to accepted the fact that Jesus was the Messiah.

And what does Peter tell them when they realize they have crucified the Messiah? Act 2:38. "Then Peter said unto them, 'Repent, and be baptized (the next two words are crucial) EVERY ONE of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the Holy Ghost. God is dealing with the WHOLE Nation of Israel. He deals with us one on one.

Another point before I continue. Look in Matthew, Mark, Luke and John and see what Jesus and others tell them what they need to do to be saved. It is believe that Jesus was the Son of God. Nothing about his death, burial and resurrection, because it had not happened yet.

Study your bible and look at Romans thru Hebrews which is Paul's Epistles and mainly to the gentiles (us), and there you will see the difference. Paul does not mention: Repent and be baptized. He alway states: Believe the Gospel which can be found in 1 Corinthians 15: 1-4. Plane and simple.

Find a church that preaches the true Gospel.

Faith in the finished work of the cross plus nothing.

Sorry for the long post, but I feel it is important and I hope I have not confused anyone.

Easymoney.

Couldn't agree more.

[unioncountyslayer]

I am new here and I feel I have to response to this topic.

I am going to throw in a different approach.

Always remember Law and Grace doesn't, can't and will not mix. We are not under the law because Jesus fulfilled that. We are saved by the finished work of the cross plus nothing. All we have to do to be saved is believe that Christ died for our sins, was buried and then rose again the third day.

In reference to Acts 2:37: Look at who Peter is talking to. Acts 2:36 "Therefore let all the house of Israel" He is talking to jew only, they are still on covenant ground. No gentiles here. EVERY jew would have had to accepted the fact that Jesus was the Messiah.

And what does Peter tell them when they realize they have crucified the Messiah? Act 2:38. "Then Peter said unto them, 'Repent, and be baptized (the next two words are crucial) EVERY ONE of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the Holy Ghost. God is dealing with the WHOLE Nation of Israel. He deals with us one on one.

Another point before I continue. Look in Matthew, Mark, Luke and John and see what Jesus and others tell them what they need to do to be saved. It is believe that Jesus was the Son of God. Nothing about his death, burial and resurrection, because it had not happened yet.

Study your bible and look at Romans thru Hebrews which is Paul's Epistles and mainly to the gentiles (us), and there you will see the difference. Paul does not mention: Repent and be baptized. He alway states: Believe the Gospel which can be found in 1 Corinthians 15: 1-4. Plane and simple.

Find a church that preaches the true Gospel.

Faith in the finished work of the cross plus nothing.

Sorry for the long post, but I feel it is important and I hope I have not confused anyone.

Easymoney.

Well put!

[BamaTrae]

Jesus is the living water that washes away sin. The water for baptisim signifies our rebirth, but it itself is only an act of obediance and nothing and an outward sign of our faith.

Jesus HAS the "living water", remember in His death he was pierced and "out came blood and water" - John 19:34 so in His death His blood was shed, and by inspiration John adds that water came out of the Savior's dead body. Then Paul says in Romans 6:1-4 that we are "baptized into His death" and shows us that when we are baptized we are spiritually dying to ourselves and sin, and being reborn in Christ. If nothing else, baptism accomplishes that new birth, agree or disagree?

I also enjoy studying the Bible, I want to know all I can and teach my children every bit that I can before I leave this world. Thank you for your thoughtful and consistent response.

Trae

[BamaTrae]

But in this story Paul had already been converted on the road to Damascus. He was already a child of God otherwise he would still be called Saul. Why would he have to get saved again?

Acts 9:19-22 Saul spent several days with the disciples in Damascus.

He was still called Saul until chapter 15 chapter after his conversion. I do not believe Saul was converted ON the road to Damascus, Think about it, he literally saw Jesus, he was blinded by the vision, Jesus actually spoke to him, but Jesus did not tell him what he had to do!!! Jesus told him to go to Damacus and it would be told to him what he "MUST DO" - Acts 9:1-9. Add to that the fact that Saul was in Damascus for three days fasting and praying, but he had still not been told what he "must do" in order to be saved. Not until Ananias came to him was he told what he "must do" and that was to be the main spokeman to the Gentiles, and to get baptized - for the washing away of his sins, Acts 22:16, so he was still IN sin, and had not been cleansed as of that time.

Baptism is more than just an act of obedience, why did so many do it? And why would God give us a silly hoop to jump through? Every command of God is for a purpose, and it is clear that in baptism the washing away of sin is actually accomplished.

Peter says that baptism saves us in - 1 Peter 3:21

Trae

[BamaTrae]

Easymoney...

Study your bible and look at Romans thru Hebrews which is Paul's Epistles and mainly to the gentiles (us), and there you will see the difference. Paul does not mention: Repent and be baptized. He alway states: Believe the Gospel which can be found in 1 Corinthians 15: 1-4. Plane and simple.

Actually, God inspired the same Paul, to tell us in Ephesians 2:11-16 that there is ONE plan for all mankind, no matter our nationality. He makes it abuntly clear in Galatians 3:26-28 - "For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus. For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ. There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus."

In fact that passage of scripture refutes the whole premise of your post. Paul not only teaches baptism, he says everyone enjoys the same opportunity to receive salvation in Christ Jesus.

I could post many verses where Paul teaches about baptism, he, himself was even baptised immeadiatly when Ananias told him what he "must do" according to the plan teaching of the Lord.

I am aware that some believe that the Jewish nationals have a different plan than that of everyone else, but that is just not the case, they are to obey the same gospel as we are. Which you correctly stated was clearly taught in 1 Corinthians 15:1-4.

Let's stay with the Word of God, when we take our opinions out of the way and allow the Word to speak for itself, we can understand exactly what God is saying.

Trae

[Guest Easymoney]

Actually, God inspired the same Paul, to tell us in Ephesians 2:11-16 that there is ONE plan for all mankind, no matter our nationality. He makes it abuntly clear in Galatians 3:26-28 - "For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus. For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ. There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus."

In fact that passage of scripture refutes the whole premise of your post. Paul not y teaches baptism, he says everyone enjoys the same opportunity to receive salvation in Christ Jesus.

I could post many verses where Paul teaches about baptism, he, himself was even baptised immeadiatly when Ananias told him what he "must do" according to the plan teaching of the Lord.

I am aware that some believe that the Jewish nationals have a different plan than that of everyone else, but that is just not the case, they are to obey the same gospel as we are. Which you correctly stated was clearly taught in 1 Corinthians 15:1-4.

Let's stay with the Word of God, when we take our opinions out of the way and allow the Word to speak for itself, we can understand exactly what God is saying.

Trae

This is long but maybe it wil help.

What is the meaning of baptism ?

Matthew 3:3

"For this is he that was spoken of by the prophet Esaias (see it's also in Isaiah. Isaiah also speaks of John the Baptist) saying, `The voice of one crying in the wilderness, `Prepare ye the way of the Lord, make his paths straight.'" You know all about John, so now I would like for you to come quickly down to verse 6

Matthew 3:6

"And were baptized of him in Jordan, confessing their sins." Think for a moment. Can you think of any other subject in Christianity that will cause more controversy, more anger, more disruption of fellowship and more everything else that you can think of, than baptism? er. I see people who seemingly have real sweet fellowship until all of a sudden they realize they didn't agree on baptism and then, oops, there goes their friendship. Now there's something wrong when something can cause such division amongst believers. And I guess I'd have to say it's because we have so many different views of this baptism. Some feel that it's mandatory for salvation. Some, that it has nothing to do with salvation. Some in sprinkling, some in immersion. So you have all of these conflicting ideas, and I think it's a pity.

Now we are going to see what the Scripture says. But here, John no doubt about it, maintains that if these Jews of Israel are going to show saving faith in the fact that their King and Kingdom is here, then they would have to show it with the baptism of repentance. And that is why it is always called the "Baptism of Repentance." The two could not be separated. These Jews were repenting then of their failure of the system of law, and everything else. They were now preparing their hearts and minds for the King and His Kingdom. I have a question for you. Why baptism? That throws a curve at almost everyone. Now remember that we are dealing with the Jew, and if you go back to the Old Testament economy, in order for the priest to be prepared for service the first thing they had to do was wash, wash, and wash some more. They had lots of practice at washing. Throughout the whole system of the Law of Moses there was that constant washing to show to the very mind of Israel that sin was a filthy thing. This is what we are dealing with here. Sin!

That is why leprosy is used as a picture of sin. Now most of us don't know how horrible a man with leprosy can look, especially in the final stages. It is beyond comprehension. And that's what sin does. Naaman, the Syrian General, had leprosy and the servant just begged him to go to the prophet of Israel and be healed. So he ends up with Elisha, and the old prophet doesn't even come but rather sends his own servant out, and tells this big Syrian General to do what? Go dip in the Jordan River seven times. Well he finally did, and what happened? He was healed of his leprosy. Now the water didn't do it. God did it because Naaman, as reluctant as he was, was still exercising faith. But that dipping in the Jordan River indicated a cleansing. In the same way, the priesthood with their wash, wash, wash, were merely emphasizing their need for a spiritual cleansing. The water in no way could do that. Look at Scripture where Israel was told that every Jew was to be a priest of God. What little rite had to happen before they would be ready for a priesthood? They had to be washed. And they experienced that symbolic washing with their baptism. Now that is all you can put on it. Nothing more!

I guess one of the biggest questions has been, "Why was Jesus baptized? He didn't have any sin to repent of." But again, He came to be a prophet, priest, and King, and in order to fulfill all of the requirements of the priesthood again, symbolically what did He have to experience? The washing. So as He went down into that baptism in the Jordan, he symbolically fulfilled the washing of the priesthood, and at the same time He identifies Himself with His Covenant people the Nation of Israel. Do you see how everything just fits so beautifully together? There is a reason for it, but we have to understand it.[/size]

I Corinthians 12:12,13

For as the body is one, and hath many members, and all the members of that one body, being many, are one body: so also is Christ. For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit."

Now, does the Holy Spirit baptize with water? No! So, this is not talking about water baptism, yet nearly every Christian group will not accept a person for membership without water baptism. Do you really believe that every member in your congregation is a born again child of God? Of course not! We are all members of congregations where there are unbelievers who have been baptized under whatever form of baptism their particular group uses. There are still people coming into every group who are totally unsaved; they're baptized and they are members there, but they are not members of the Body of Christ. There will be no unbelievers in the Body of Christ because that's the work of the Holy Spirit - to immediately place or baptize them into the Body of Christ. The reason Paul uses this analogy of the human body is that some believers' roles are no more that that of a little pinkie finger. Some may even have the role of a little toe, which most people never see. Others may be in more visible roles, but every one of us, regardless of where God has placed us in the Body, has a function in that Body, be it small or great.[/size]

Here in I Corinthians 12, it shows very clearly what God expects of His children. Here, Paul mentions the gifts that really amount to something; the very gifts Christ uses, by an act of the Holy Spirit, to search the heart. The Holy Spirit will never place an unbeliever into the Body of Christ. None of us can examine someone else close enough to screen him from the membership in our local church. We can't do it, and we're not supposed to. That's why Jesus gave the illustration during His earthly ministry of the "tares and the wheat". It's the same way in the church. We can't judge and say, "That church member is not a child of God." That's not our job. But, we have to be aware that in the Body of Christ there are no false professors - only the genuine believer is in the Body of Christ, and that's the only Christ there is.

So that's the membership you'd better be sure of. Don't worry about whether you are member of the biggest church in town or the smallest; just be sure you are a member of the Body of Christ, and remember the qualification: It's for all! "For by one spirit we were baptized into one body!"

Romans 6:4

"Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: (many people will disagree, but I'm convinced this is not a water baptism. Water baptism cannot do what Paul is talking about here.) that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life."

No baptism can give new life. Only the power of God can do that. So I am convinced, maybe contrary to the way I was taught in my earlier years, that this is Baptism of the Holy Spirit.

In Chapter 12 is what I consider the only valid baptism for us in this Age of Grace. And it's a baptism that human hands cannot touch; it's a baptism that a lost person can have no part in. In water baptism, we can never be sure of a person's salvation.

I was brought up in a congregation where candidates for baptism were examined very thoroughly, yet I've come to the conclusion in my later years that there is no way a group of men, or pastors, can truly determine a person's salvation. We can hear their testimony and come to some human conclusions, but we can never look on the heart. That is something that only God Himself can do.

I don't think it will actually happen this way, but if it were, and we get to glory, we are suddenly going to realize that a lot of people are there we didn't think would be. And there are going to be a lot of people not there that we thought should be. We probably won't have that kind of knowledge, but just hypothetically if that were the case, we would be surprised and disappointed. But we can't look on the heart, only the outward veneer to reach a conclusion. But that's not the heart. This is where the Scripture says also "Judge not!" Consequently this is the baptism that Paul refers to here in verse 12:

I Corinthians 12:12,13

"For as the body (that is this human body. In other words from head to toe, we are controlled by one central nervous system, one mind, one brain) is one, and hath many members, and all the members of that one body, being many, are one body (ten fingers and toes if we are normal): so also is Christ."

And here Paul is referring to the Body of Christ. Now, verse 13, and this may shock some people, but again I'm not changing or twisting the wording, we are going to leave it exactly where it sits.

I Corinthians 12:13

"For by one Spirit (notice that Spirit is capitalized, so it is in reference to the Holy Spirit.) are we (and remember Paul always writes to believers. What's the next word?) all (not just a favorite few, or a special elite, but how many? All But of course that's according to God's determination of who is a believer, whether weak or strong, spiritual or carnal) baptized into one body," So reading the verse again: "For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit."

Let me qualify the Body of Christ, which of course came on the scene in the New Testament, I think after Pentecost. Some people disagree with me, and that's fine. But you search the Scriptures until you are sure you can prove me wrong. But I'm convinced that the Body of Christ didn't necessarily begin at Pentecost, because Pentecost was strictly a Jewish holiday, with a Jewish message. When the Gospel of Grace begins to go out to both Jew and Gentile, especially at the church in Antioch, in Acts Chapter 11, where it says that the believers at Antioch were the first to be called Christians; this was about 10 years after Pentecost.

That's where they were first called Christians. Not the Jewish believers in Jerusalem in those previous years. But when Gentiles started coming in by faith in the Gospel of the grace of God, they were now called Christians as the Scriptures says, so that's where I feel the Body of Christ began when Paul begins to preach this message of Christ's death, burial, and resurrection. And by faith and faith alone without the Law. And as men and women began to believe that, then the Holy Spirit baptized, or placed them, into the Body of Christ, the Church. I don't care what denomination you are a part of it doesn't make any difference, the question is still valid: is every member on your church roll a genuine born again Christian? No. Remember we are not to judge, but we know for a fact that they are not all true believers. What about the unbeliever? Are they members of the Body of Christ? No, they can't be. They are unsaved. Only the saved go into the Body of Christ. So this is where I get the premise, that the only baptism that really counts for eternity is this one. The one that places the true believer into the Body of Christ. Let's also look at Ephesians 4. Again, Paul writing to believers says

Ephesians 4:4,5

"There is one body, (The Body of Christ) and one Spirit, (The Holy Spirit) even as ye are called in one hope of your calling. One Lord, one faith, one baptism," How many? ONE. Do you see that?

So you can have your name on as many church rolls as you wish. But unless you are in the Body of Christ you are doomed. The Scripture makes it so plain. But if you are a child of God, you are in the Body of Christ by virtue of the placing it there by the Holy Spirit, as Paul makes it so plain. And then as members of the Body of Christ, we all maintain our individuality, we all have unique place in that Body, and yet we are all what? ONE.

Again, Jesus was baptized and had no sin.

[BamaTrae]

Easymoney, C'mon man, you didn't even attempt to back-up your prior statements, or at least admit you were wrong. Let's not get into a cut and paste debate of other men's ideas, what do you have to say about the current topic? How do you answer my charge? I really enjoy studying and debating like this, but let's stick with the Word of God, not the opinions of some man that you didn't even give credit.

I basically said that your post was false. I proved it with scripture, now you try to do the same with my post, the one whose points are scriptually still standing at the end is the obvious truth.

So now what do you think?

Trae

[Guest Easymoney]

I am only trying to show that in the Bible, look at who is being addressed. God's original plan was to use the jews to be priest to the gentiles and when Israel rejected him as the messiah, he uses Paul to come out to the gentiles. There is a difference.

I will have to get back with you next week, because I will be out of town until Tuesday.

The part in Acts chapter 2, that I was referring to was that Peter was telling them to accept that Jesus was the Messiah. There is no mention of the finished work of the cross.

I was using the teaching of Les Feldick. Check it out, you will enjoy it and be enlightened. It is only what the Bible says.

[Guest Turkey Fife]

asdf

I agree that their is much Divison about Baptism. However, that is not Christ's Fault, it's man's.

Thier is nothing more clear than that their is ONE Baptism. Eph. 4:4,5 If that is True and I believe it is. We have one BIG problem. Their is the Baptism of the Spirit or the Baptism in the name of Christ. We can't have both.

Now we have Paul's Baptism that Washed away his sins. And the Eunuch who went down into the Water. Also the people in Acts that could not forbid water. Romans where water was talked about as being Buried. Also I have never heard anyone say this was not Water Baptism. The Bible is FULL of talk of Baptism and people still don't believe the Power in it. I believe with all my heart if ANYONE is not Baptized for the forgiveness of their Sins. They will be LOST this is not something to mess with. The Bible is very plain on the subject! You got to have HELP not to understand it.

One more point I Peter 3:21 Teaches that Baptism Saves....I have not seen anyone yet not understand this passage. If this don't teach that, then what does it teach?

I wish I could type fasre and spell better their is so much I want to share with you.

[johnf]

If nothing else, baptism accomplishes that new birth, agree or disagree?

I beilive that the baptism is an outword reflection of an inward rebirth. If baptism were needed for the remission of sin then why would Jesus have done it? There are some "churches" and I use that word very loosly here that teach that Jesus was a regular person with regular sin issues untill his baptism by John the Baptist. I grew up in one. They teach that baptism washes away all your "past" sins and for that moment you are without sins.

To give baptism power seems like a dangerous thing to me (with the upbringing that I had). I belive it an important act of obediance like I said before.

[johnf]

Have you ever witnessed childbirth? I have, twice. First my daughter Moriah then almost 9 years later with my son Luke. After they were born into this world the doctor brought them over so that my wife could hold them close and bond with them. They were slimy and nasty with all sorts of things on them that I don't wish to described. My wife and I both loved them and kissed them. Then they were washed. If they hadn't been washed I would have loved them the same and they would still be my babies.

I equate baptism the same. We are given a new birth by the blood of Christ. We feel his warmth and his love and know that we are born again. We are a new person in a new life but with the outward sign of where we've been. Baptism washes that sign away, but our new life is there whether the baptism happens or not.

There is nothing in the story of Paul's conversion (on the road to Damascus) that would make me think that he wasn't a child of God the second after Christ spoke to him.

Why did so many people get baptised? Very simple answer..............They were obedient.

And why would God give us a silly hoop to jump through? I don't believe baptism is silly. Why should I question God? There are lots of things He asked me to do that have nothing to do with salvation, it has to do with obedience.

Every command of God is for a purpose, and it is clear that in baptism the washing away of sin is actually accomplished.

Then why did Jesus get baptised? Was he a sinner too?

He was still called Saul until chapter 15 chapter after his conversion. I do not believe Saul was converted ON the road to Damascus, Think about it, he literally saw Jesus, he was blinded by the vision, Jesus actually spoke to him, but Jesus did not tell him what he had to do!!! Jesus told him to go to Damacus and it would be told to him what he "MUST DO" - Acts 9:1-9. Add to that the fact that Saul was in Damascus for three days fasting and praying, but he had still not been told what he "must do" in order to be saved. Not until Ananias came to him was he told what he "must do" and that was to be the main spokeman to the Gentiles, and to get baptized - for the washing away of his sins, Acts 22:16, so he was still IN sin, and had not been cleansed as of that time.

Baptism is more than just an act of obedience, why did so many do it? And why would God give us a silly hoop to jump through? Every command of God is for a purpose, and it is clear that in baptism the washing away of sin is actually accomplished.

Peter says that baptism saves us in - 1 Peter 3:21

Trae

[johnf]

I Peter 3:21 and this water symbolizes baptism that now saves you also — not the removal of dirt from the body but the pledge of a good conscience toward God. It saves you by the resurrection of Jesus Christ.

Yes you are right, it's easy to understand. Read carefully. And this water symbolizes baptism.........

The water symbolizes something that has already been accomplished, the death, burial, and resurection of Christ.

[ftgbowhunter]

I would still say that this book is a real helpful tool http://reluctant-messenger.com/HWA/Mystery/index.htm. This man has a whole lot of wisdom.

[BamaTrae]

I Peter 3:21 and this water symbolizes baptism that now saves you also — not the removal of dirt from the body but the pledge of a good conscience toward God. It saves you by the resurrection of Jesus Christ.

Yes you are right, it's easy to understand. Read carefully. And this water symbolizes baptism.........

The water symbolizes something that has already been accomplished, the death, burial, and resurection of Christ.

Could you please post verse 20 along with verse 21, and what version is that from, very good.

His point is that the water FROM THE FLOOD symbolizes baptism for us in the New Covenant. The water saved the eight souls in the ark, and it saves us by washing away our sins. Of course without faith it is only getting wet, I agree that baptism alone accomplishes nothing, but faith alone is just as powerless, James 2:24.

You made some good points, and the illustration of the birth of your children is a great one, I also have expirenced that and it is amazing!

More to say in a few minutes.

Thanks,

Trae

[johnf]

Could you please post verse 20 along with verse 21, and what version is that from, very good.

His point is that the water FROM THE FLOOD symbolizes baptism for us in the New Covenant. The water saved the eight souls in the ark, and it saves us by washing away our sins.

I guess I've always read that wrong. I always thought Noah was saved because he obeyed God. That and being in that boat. How could the water save if he was in a boat? Just not understanding your point there.

Of course without faith it is only getting wet, I agree that baptism alone accomplishes nothing, but faith alone is just as powerless, James 2:24.

Trae

[buckee]

I guess I've always read that wrong. I always thought Noah was saved because he obeyed God. That and being in that boat. How could the water save if he was in a boat? Just not understanding your point there.

Very good point John. It was Noah's Faith and obedience to the Lord, that saved him. It was because of his faith that God favoured him and told him to build the Ark, and it was because of his obedience in building the ark, that he and his family floated away to safety when the floods came. The water was his baptism, and could have just as easily killed him, rather than save him.

Noah's ordeal pointed to a much later time and greater time in History, to when the Lamb of God would shed his blood for all mankind before we even believed. Jesus is our Ark, which is ready and waiting. All we have to do is climb aboard through faith and obedience first, before the baptism.

In the same way, a new believer first recognizes his sin through faith, and then repents through obedience and welcomes the baptism when it comes.

The water alone, is just water.

We don't have to build an ark, like Noah did, because God already did that for us in his only begotten son Jesus Christ.. Talk about Love and Grace. It is Jesus shed blood that washes away our sins, and his blood is the water that can save us or condemn us in that day.

[johnf]

You always say it better than me.

[Guest Turkey Fife]

asdf

Why did so many people get baptised? Very simple answer..............They were obedient. This is so true, I don't want you to think I believe their is anything in the Water. My guess is their is alot of it. And we will always need it. However, the Lord Commanded it and that is good enough for me.

[6] And he trembling and astonished said, Lord, what wilt thou have me to do? And the Lord said unto him, Arise, and go into the city, and it shall be told thee what thou must do.

[7] And the men which journeyed with him stood speechless, hearing a voice, but seeing no man.

[8] And Saul arose from the earth; and when his eyes were opened, he saw no man: but they led him by the hand, and brought him into Damascus.

[9] And he was three days without sight, and neither did eat nor drink.

[10] And there was a certain disciple at Damascus, named Ananias; and to him said the Lord in a vision, Ananias. And he said, Behold, I am here, Lord.

[11] And the Lord said unto him, Arise, and go into the street which is called Straight, and inquire in the house of Judas for one called Saul, of Tarsus: for, behold, he prayeth

How can one ingore that Paul was Blinded, Had not Eaten, Praying and he is told what he MUST DO, Not might do if he gets time, Some one was going to tell him. Arise, be baptized washing away your sins, calling on the name of the Lord. This is just not the way the world teaches. But its Bible.

Now what I have noticed like Trae said your not answering questions. And I understand why. You can't, their are no answers. You MUST either believe it and Obey it, or Reject it. You can Dance around it, Twist it, Spin it, But Truth is Truth, it not mine or Trae's, this is not something we came up with. It's Gods Plan somehow we have been able to see it and were lucky enough to be taught it. I like you all, fought it for a long time. I believe my mind was open, my heart was soft, and the seed took.

One more point: I don't care if it was the WATER, BOAT, OBEDIENCE, what was simbolized,The Bible teaches that Baptism Saves it's a fact I can't change it. I believe the Death, Burial, and Resurection is what is Simbolized, like in Romans 6:3,4 If you could see a Stick Box and at the top the Stick was cut in half and laid back Horzional. In that Box is a Water Line, And as you are looking at the Box full of Water on the Left is a Stick Man on the piece of Stick we turned back. (he's a sinner like me and you) That's the Death! We are dead to sin through the blood of Christ, and now he's in the Box of Water..(Which repesents the Blood of Christ) BURIED in Water...That is the BURIAL...and on the other side on that Horzional line is a NEW MAN who came up out of the water, WASHED CLEAN OF HIS SINS, ARISED TO WALK A NEW LIFE IN CHRIST...That my friend is the RESURECTION!!!!

Till you have done this you cannot be saved, you have not come in contact with the BLOOD of Christ, how can you be saved?...any other way is not God's way! He only has one plan for man. Eph 4:4 One HOPE of your calling.