Choosing a church

[Guest Turkey Fife]

2 Peter 3:14-16 Therefore, beloved, looking forward to these things, be diligent to be found by Him in peace, without spot and blameless; 15 and consider that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation—as also our beloved brother Paul, according to the wisdom given to him, has written to you, 16 as also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things, in which are some things hard to understand, which untaught and unstable people twist to their own destruction, as they do also the rest of the Scriptures.

Peter considered ALL of Paul's epistles for Jew and Greek alike!!!!!!

Gentiles are "grafted in" to the same tree, or family of faith. There is no separation between Jew and Greek anymore. That ended with the old law.

Trae: Good Point! You Proved what I knew but didn't know how to (Prove) Thanks

I'd appreciate it if you would stop putting words in peoples mouths, and mis-interpreting what they say.

Sorry, I didn't mean to speak for anyone but myself and that is a full time job )

[Guest Turkey Fife]

Why I left the Baptist church

"Why I Left the Baptist Church"

Grover Stevens

NO ANIMOSITY FOR BAPTISTS

I would like to say in the beginning that I have no animosity whatsoever against Baptists. Personally, I have no reason for leaving the Baptist church, but quite to the contrary, if personal reasons counted, I would never have left the Baptist Church, because personality is in their favor. Especially is this true of the congregation of which I was a member in Phillips, Texas. I believe that the Baptists are, for the most part, splendid people. I believe that most of them are honest and sincere. I believe that, if there are Baptists here tonight, most of them want the truth, and will consider the things that are said honestly and open-minded. However, some times, out of a sense of loyalty to that which we have become members of, we are prone to cast aside lightly any charges that might be made against us. I sincerely hope that that will not be the way you will do tonight. I beg you to hear what I have to say, study it carefully with an open Bible in hand, then, out of honesty to your own soul and to God Almighty, to embrace all that you find to be in harmony with the Bible. Believe it, not because I said it, but because you found it in the word of God. That is the only thing any of us would have you believe--the Bible, the word of God. In spite of all the accusations made to the contrary, we still preach only the Bible. Such expressions are idle, I suppose, in view of the fact that all "churches" claim the same thing. We know that all of them do not preach "only the Bible" for they are many and the Bible is one. The Bible does not teach contradictory doctrines. The Baptists hold the Bible up and say, "We preach the Bible". That is what we do.

So, what have I gained by telling you that we take the Bible and nothing but the Bible? Nothing, I suppose. I will just have to prove to you that we do actually stand on the Bible and nothing else, and that the Baptists do not. If they did, I never would have left them. I want you to consider the things that are said as honestly as you know how, tonight.

When I came into this world, I found it divided religiously. When I was old enough to notice things, I found a church on every hand. Here was one and there was another, all claiming to preach the Bible, yet wearing different names and teaching different doctrines. This sentiment prevailed, "It doesn't make any difference what church you are a member of, or what you believe, just so long as you are honest and sincere about it." Having grown up in an atmosphere like that, most of us just seem to accept it as the truth--as axiomatic, but it isn't. The Bible doesn't teach that. If so, where? Nevertheless, that is what we heard every day. Another thought akin to this is that everyone ought to go to church; everyone ought to be a member of some church. These things are preached by all denominational preachers. Hence, the general conception in religious circles, and the basis for all resentment toward the church of Christ, because we deny it.

BAPTISTS PREACH SOME TRUTH

I do not believe that everything they say is a falsehood or a lie. I believe that they preach a lot of truth. The part that they preach that is true, I am glad to accept, but the things they preach which are not the truth made me leave them. Let me illustrate my point. You will recall that in the Garden of Eden the devil preached truth along with a lie. He said, "Thou shalt not surely die." That is false doctrine. He also said, "For God doth know that in the day that ye eat thereof your eyes shall be opened and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil." That is the truth. This made the lie more deceptive. Did Adam and Eve sin when they believed and obeyed that? Why, certainly they did. It was half a truth and half a lie. If you say, "Well, I only stand for the things that are the truth", then I will reply, "Maybe that was what Adam and Eve thought too." "We'll just stand for half of it, and we'll tell the Lord that we did not believe the other half." But it led them into error and condemnation just the same. Hence, what truth the Baptist Church preaches is perverted by the false. Then, too, they many times preach more against sin, moral sin or immorality, than gospel preachers do. I do not mean to say that we do not preach against immorality, but that they preach on it almost altogether, and we spend some time preaching doctrine and pointing out false doctrines. And we need to do that.

Upon attending the Baptist Church, one hears the Baptist preach against sin, and recognizes the fact that he is a sinner-- that he is lost. Then being convicted of sin, and desiring to be saved and do what is right, we join the Baptist Church, or some other church. A person convicted of sin is ready to do anything he is commanded. For example, when I first became a member of the church of Christ, I wished that the Lord had left baptism out of the Bible. I said to myself, "Everything that the church of Christ teaches is fine, and I believe that most of the people in the denominations believe exactly what the church teaches, but when they come to baptism, they just seem to resent that. If the Lord had just left baptism out, then everything would be all right." I have learned since that that wasn't the trouble. People do not mind being baptized when they are convicted of sin. People wanting to obey God do not mind being baptized. They do not mind doing anything that God commands them to do. It is a matter of surrendering whole-heartedly one's own will to God's will. When that's done his attitude is simply, "Lord, whatever you want me to do, I'm willing to do it." Many, not realizing this, go on in rebellion against God, believing all the while that they are pleasing to Him. Hence, we join some church because we are convicted of sin, realize that we are lost, and because we believe that it is the right thing to do. That is the reason I joined the Baptist Church.

EARLY EXPERIENCE

I attended Sunday School at the Baptist Church in Caddo, Oklahoma, when I was a little fellow. After we moved to Texas, I didn't go much, if at all. By and by my mother started attending the church of Christ at Banger, Texas, so I began attending Bible study there. I attended there several months and was impressed with the way they studied the Bible. Then I took pneumonia and was out for about six weeks, so I lost interest and did not go back. After some time, I was encouraged to go to Sunday School at the Baptist Church by some of my friends. I became regular in attendance and made 100 in Sunday School right along. Our class was good to win the Banner. Those of you who know the Baptist grading system know that I had to stay for church to make 100. It wasn't long until I began to realize that I was lost and in sin, and needed to be saved. I wanted to be saved, so one Sunday night when the preacher was making propositions with folks, he invited any who knew that they were lost and "desired the prayers of the church" to hold up their hand. I knew that I was lost, so at this suggestion I raised my hand. It was difficult at first. It took all the strength I had to make that arm move, but after I got it started it wasn't so hard. As I held my hand up my face burned and my heart came up to my throat. When the preacher said, "God bless you, son," my face burned more and I was very self-conscious. Afterwards, several came to me and told me how proud they were of me and encouraged me. Then I felt more confident and was proud of myself. Of course, my Sunday School teacher and a few others encouraged me to join the church. I talked to my mother about it and was persuaded to wait awhile. She felt that I was being persuaded and didn't realize what I was doing. After some time I began to visit the Methodist Sunday School and church occasionally with a friend who was a Methodist. Finally I quit attending at all.

A little over a year later I made a speech at the Annual Boy Scout Father and Son Banquet. After the Banquet the Methodist preacher came by and asked me if I went to Sunday School or church anywhere. I told him that I didn't, so he urged me to come to the Methodist Church. Later the Baptist preacher approached me and was equally as urgent in his invitation as the Methodist preacher. (They had changed preachers at both places since the incident mentioned before). After some delay I began attending the Baptist Church. It wasn't long until I was under conviction again I remembered the time before, so the Sunday morning I went up during the invitation and asked the preacher to pray for me. I felt just as I had before. I spent the afternoon trying to decide what to do. Late in the afternoon, some time before B. T. U. was to begin, I gathered up a change of clothes and went to the church building to see the preacher. He was in the auditorium talking with one of the men. I asked him if he would baptize me that night. He asked me, "Are you saved, Grover?" I said, "Well, I don't know; I guess I am." He took me into his office where we talked quite a while. When he heard of my former experience, he told me that I had been saved back then. I accepted that for I remembered how I had felt after they had prayed for me. That night I confessed that "God for Christ's sake has saved me from my sins, and I want to join the Baptist Church." Upon hearing that confession, they voted to receive me, and I was baptized into the Baptist Church that night. It was April 24, 1938.

ZEAL IN THE BAPTIST CHURCH

I took a personal interest in the work. I worked diligently. I was instrumental in leading several people to what I honestly thought was Christ, and they joined the Baptist Church. I was given a Sunday School class, made the assistant director of the B. T. U., and was licensed to preach. I preached once a month for a little congregation in Sanford. Texas, about twenty miles out, and filled in for our local preacher when he was away.

I had been preaching and working for some time, and nothing had challenged my attention pertaining to Baptist Doctrine. Then, one day my mother and oldest brother, who had been attending the church of Christ, told me how the church of Christ preached the Bible. They urged me to attend a meeting starting in a few days. What I had heard about the church of Christ was told with contempt, so I had learned to feel that way toward them--at least, a little. However, I made up my mind that I would attend the meeting, listen to what was said and accept all that I could. I was determined to "give the devil his due." I wanted to learn what was taught whether I believed it or not.

A. G. Hobbs, Jr., was doing the preaching. Brother Hobbs is a very plain preacher. He is very kind, but he never leaves a doubt as to what he is talking about. I went home and looked up some of the scriptures and found them right there. On many points I would say, "You know, I believe he is right about that," but on others, "Now, he just missed it there. If I could show him a few things in that connection, he'd see differently." I know that many of you will feel that way toward me before this lesson is over. You will think, "I wish I could tell him something." I wish you could, too, because I would like to remove every objection so that you could see your way to obey the truth. I learned that when I offered my objections to his position, that it was even more evident that he was right. That's the reason that the denominational preachers "don't believe in arguing." They do believe in arguing their side of it, but they don't believe in allowing a gospel preacher to examine their side. Suffice it to say that if I cannot sustain every point in this or any other lesson, I will apologize for it and retract it. Isn't that fair? I wish I knew everything that will come into your mind tonight, and I had the time to reply to it. I will do the best that I can out of a consciousness of what turned over in my mind as I listened to these things being presented. Maybe I can deal with the most of your objections.

[Guest Turkey Fife]

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MY ATTENTION CHALLENGED

The first thing that challenged my attention as I listened to Brother Hobbs was that there was just one church. I suppose there is nothing in the Bible more plainly taught, yet more disavowed. The Bible says that the church is the body of Christ (Eph 1:22, 23). It says, "There is one body" (Eph. 4:4). The church is the body; there is one body; therefore, there is one church. Along with other proofs, I saw that there was just one church. Which one? So I began to study.

Other things challenged my attention as I studied. I wondered about God calling all preachers to preach. Does God call all preachers, then cause them to preach conflicting doctrines? Does God call Baptist preachers to preach, and then cause them to preach that immersion is the only kind of baptism, that only ordained Baptist preachers have the authority to baptize, the impossibility of apostasy, the miraculous operation of the Holy Spirit, and numerous other things? Then does God call a Methodist preacher to preach that sprinkling is baptism, and that you can fall from grace? Does God call both of them to preach these contradictory doctrines? John 17:20-23 and I Cor. 1:10-13 teach that he does not.

Why belong to a church? I told you that people, when convicted of sin will join one church or another, even though they do not know what it teaches or stands for. It is a church, they tell the story of Christ, and they were convicted of sin there, so they become members of it without questioning, or even knowing anything about its doctrines. When somebody criticizes it, the members of it resent it. Why? Because the criticism was true or not true? NO, we just don't like for people to criticize the church we are members of. Because of a sense of loyalty we resent it. That is human nature. We must overcome feelings like that and be ready to face facts.

Why become a member of a church? Because of parents, friends, relatives? Because of a nice building? Because it is conveniently located? Because they do a lot of good works? Because they teach some truth? Are these reasons we become members? For the most part, yes. The large majority of the people in the denominations join them without knowing what they teach, or stand for, hence they could not have joined because of their doctrine. I would say that 85 per cent or 90 per cent of the people in the Baptist Church do not know what the Baptist Church teaches. Some people say, "I know that they teach such and such a thing, but I don't believe it." Now look, first, you are a member of something that you do not even know what it teaches, and second, you are supporting a doctrine that you do not believe. If I were supporting a doctrine that I didn't believe, you'd call me a hypocrite.

THE SIXTY-FOUR DOLLAR QUESTION

Now here is the sixty-four dollar question. On the preceding basis, I want to know why you do not join all the churches in town? You have heard that question before, but I want you to consider it again. Why not joint the Methodist, the Baptist, the Presbyterian and the Adventist? I have friends in all of them. They all teach some truth. They all do many good works, they raise the fallen and they do benevolence. There are good people in all. They stand for morality. The reasons we give for belonging to one church could be given as reasons for belonging to all; so, why not join all of them? I'll tell you why. It would make me a hypocrite to be a member of more than one church. If you are a member of the Baptist Church, and you go next Sunday and join the Methodist Church, and then the following Sunday join the Presbyterian, folks will begin to say that you are not sincere, or that you are "not all there." At a place where I was preaching once there was a family that joined every church in town during the big meetings. The town and the churches were considerate--they just overlooked it. Their name is a synonym for being "a little off." Hence, joining all churches will give you a reputation for being a hypocrite or insane.

If it will make you a hypocrite for belonging to the Methodist Church and the Baptist Church at the same time-- then why? Is it because of the good people in it? No. Is it because of the truth or the good they teach? No. Is it because they do a lot of good works? No. What is it then? The conflicting doctrines! The Baptist Church stands for immersion only, impossibility of apostasy and close communion. The Methodist Church stands for open communion, sprinkling for baptism and the possibility of apostasy--just the opposite. We are told that it is all right for one person to stand for Baptist doctrine and another person to stand for Methodist doctrine; but it is not all right for one to stand for both the Methodist and Baptist Doctrines at the same time. To do so will bring the charge of hypocrisy or insanity upon you. If it will make me a hypocrite to belong to more than one because of the contradictory doctrines, then answer this question: Is Jesus Christ a member of all churches? Is he? Is Jesus Christ a member of the Baptist Church? If so, is he a member of the Methodist Church, too? Is he a member of both of them tonight--now? Is the Son of God standing for Baptist Doctrine of the impossibility of apostasy now, and at the same time over in the Methodist Church, is he standing for the possibility of apostasy? Is he doing that tonight? And if it will make me a hypocrite to do it, WHAT DOES; IT MAKE THE SON OF GOD? IS HE A HYPOCRITE? Does he endorse any conflicting doctrines? Is Jesus Christ a member of the Baptist Church, the Methodist, the Presbyterian, the Episcopal, the Adventists, the Mormons, and all of the different churches? Is he a member of all of them?

There is a good question in the Bible along this line, I Cor. 1:13. "Is Christ divided?" Just three words, "Is Christ divided?" The apostle Paul asked the question in condemning division. What is the answer to it? Will you answer it? Is Christ divided? The answer is in the question. It is a rhetorical question. "Is Christ divided? Was Paul crucified for you? Were you baptized in the name of Paul?" It was after considering things like these that I began to see that something was wrong--that the Baptist Church is not altogether the New Testament Church. Then I would try to justify the Baptist Church by looking to all the good they did, and the splendid people I had learned to love. I couldn't stand the thought of facing my friends and what they would have to say. It never occurred to me to rejoice in the truth and tell others who did not know. I guess I realized that they would not be glad to learn it.

I remember one day that one of the Baptist Deacons came to me in the store. We went back to the wareroom where we could be alone. He said "Grover, I heard that you are about to join the 'Campbellites'." There was that tone of contempt in his voice. He made it sound like that was the worst thing in the world. I stammered a little and said, "No, I have been attending their meeting, but I am not about to join." He said, "Well, I knew that you had better sense than to be led off by that bunch." I told him that they really knew and preached the Bible. He explained their ease in handling the Bible by telling me that the "Campbellites" only have ten sermons that they memorize and preach everywhere they go. He told me that the church was started by Alexander Campbell, that it was the most narrow-minded and bigoted bunch of people in the world, and they thought everybody was going to **** that didn't belong to their church. When he finished he left such a stigma that I thought, "Well, surely a fellow would be insane who would go with that group."

That helped for a while, as it eased my conscience to disregard what I had learned. It, very likely, was responsible for my not obeying the gospel before the meeting closed. However, the day the meeting closed, Sunday, that afternoon Brother Hobbs came to see me. He took my Bible, sat down beside me, and as I asked questions, he turned in the Bible and had me read the answers. When I didn't ask a question he had plenty of things to show me. We'll notice some of them in just a moment. He offered to talk to me in the presence of the Baptist preacher, or to talk to the Baptist preacher in my presence. He asked me to invite the Baptist preacher to meet with him or Brother Thomas McDonald, the local preacher for the church of Christ in my hometown. I didn't want to ask him because I knew that he wouldn't. He took my Church Manual and showed me where Baptist Doctrine contradicts the Bible. I saw the truth very plainly. That night he insisted that I come and hear him. I made every excuse I could but he wouldn't hear them. I told him that I had a part on the B. T. U. program and couldn't get to Borger in time after that. We got out at 8:00 and his services started at 8:00. I thought that would end it, but it didn't. The only reason I could think of for not wanting to go is that I hated to face the Baptists and explain my absence from church which they would surely notice. Brother Hobbs said, "I'll be in front of the Baptist Church at 8:00 o'clock and take you to town." He preached on church history that night. He explained the origin of denominations and showed how the church of Christ stands for New Testament Christianity free from all denominations. When the invitation was extended I wanted to go. As I thought on what I should do, and what my friends in the Baptist Church would say, my head just whirled. I managed to stay in my seat, however.

The meeting ended and I settled down to a long, hard study of things all by myself. I read the New Testament through and underlined the passages on baptism, the Holy Spirit, the plan of salvation, apostasy, etc. I copied each verse into a notebook on a sheet for each subject. When I had them all I studied them together. The more I studied, the more I realized that the Baptists were wrong, and the more it bothered me. I couldn't keep my mind on my work. I couldn't sleep. Phillips is a big oil field, and there is a big torch that burns day and night. I lay in bed and watched that torch and the lighted sky. The clouds reflected the red from its flames. I would lie there, sometimes till daylight, thinking, praying, studying, and wishing that something would happen. I prayed for the Lord to guide me. I asked the Lord to show me his will, the way He would have me go.

I struggled on until time for the Southern Baptist Convention that met that year in Oklahoma City; then, I decided to go to the convention and forget about the church of Christ. Here I was successful in forgetting my troubles and getting better established in the Baptist Church. I went with the local preacher and registered as a delegate. I returned, feeling much better, but not for long. Every time that I read my Bible I noticed those passages that I had marked. I still had my notebook, too. It wasn't long until I found myself spending sleepless nights again. I begged the Lord to show me what he would have me do. I prayed, "Thy will be done." This continued for nearly three months. Then one Sunday afternoon as I was studying and thinking, it suddenly dawned on me that the Bible is God's way of revealing his will to us. I realized that I had been praying, "Thy will be done," and as honestly and earnestly as I knew how, but that subconsciously I had been holding out on the Lord in my desire to remain a Baptist. MY WHOLE STRUGGLE WAS REBELLION TO WHAT GOD WAS TELLING ME TO DO. The Lord was trying to guide me through the light of His word, but it didn't shine in the direction I wanted it to. Most of our struggles between right and wrong are not what is right and what is wrong, but surrendering our desires for what we want, to what we know is right. The Bible is God's way of telling us His will. He is doing everything He can to guide us by the Bible. When we refuse that, we "have not God." (II John 9).

After considerable study and prayer that afternoon, I gathered up my clothes and went to services at the church of Christ. When they offered the invitation, I went forward, confessed my faith in Jesus Christ and was baptized into him the same hour of the night.

The truth is what made me leave the Baptist Church. I now invite your attention to some of those truths. My first point is the most fundamental, and is the ultimate conclusion of every point I shall make.

[Guest Turkey Fife]

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THE BAPTIST CHURCH IS NOT THE NEW TESTAMENT CHURCH

The Baptist Church is not the church you read about in the Bible. Baptist preachers, and all other preachers, take the Bible and read the word "church," but they do not comment on it. They leave the impression that it refers to "their" church. The Baptist preacher will read a passage with the word "church" in it, and apply it to the Baptist Church. The Methodist preacher will read the same passage and apply it to the Methodist Church. The Presbyterian preacher will read the same passage and apply it to the Presbyterian Church. It cannot refer to all of them. If these passages refer to the Baptist Church, it cannot refer to the Methodist, because they are two different institutions. To which one does it refer then? I am affirming that out of the 112 times that the word "church" is used in the New Testament, not one time does it refer to the Baptist Church, or to any other denomination. It talks about "the church," "the church of God," "the church of the first-born," "the churches of Christ," etc., but most of the time it just says "the church."

Which church? Which one is it? When the Bible uses the word "church" it just refers to one. Now which one is it?

CHURCH THE "CALLED OUT"

First, the word "church" means "called out." "Called out" of what? What does it mean? The Baptists teach that you can be a Christian--you can be saved, and not be a member of any church, including the Baptist. Let us see. The word "ecclesia" translated "church" refers to the "called out" --to that body of people that have been called out of the world, out of sin, into Christ. That is the meaning and significance of the word "church" in the New Testament. It does not mean denomination. It does not have reference to the Baptist Church, not the Methodist, nor any of the rest of them. It simply means "the called out." The point is this: if you can be saved without being a member of any church, then it follows that you can be saved without being "called out" or a member of the "called out." You have to be called out of the world into Christ to be saved. The same thing that calls you out, that redeems you, makes you a member of the church or "called out;" don't you see? The Baptists do not use it that way. They talk about a. person being saved and in Christ before he is a member of the church, and without being a member of any church.

I want to illustrate this point by substituting the terms "called out" and "redeemed" for church in a passage of scripture or two. Acts 2:47 says "the Lord added to the church daily such as should be saved." The Lord added to the "called out" daily such as should be saved. Now, see this body of people over here that are in sin and in the world, and the Lord added to this other body over here, the "called out," "such as should be saved." All of those who were saved were called out of the world into Christ. The process of saving and calling out are the same. "The Lord added to the saved daily such as should be saved." The Lord added to the redeemed daily such as should be saved.

In Acts 8:1 we read, "And at that time there was a great persecution against the church that was at Jerusalem." Now watch it, "At that time there was a great persecution against the called out which was at Jerusalem," "a great persecution against the redeemed which was at Jerusalem," "against the saved which was at Jerusalem." Do you see that? I do not see how you could miss it.

Acts 20:28, "Take heed therefore to yourselves and to all the flock over which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood." The called out of God which he hath purchased with his own blood," "the saved of God, "the redeemed of God. The church, the redeemed, the saved, the called out. This is the significance of the word "church," and is a far cry from the meaning Baptists give it. Remember they claim that a person can be saved, redeemed, belong to God and not be a member of the Baptist Church. The church is the Kingdom of God, the body of Christ, the family of God. When viewing the church as to its relationship to the world, it is the "called out"--called out of the world--the church. When viewing the church as to its government, it is a kingdom, the Kingdom of God. As to its organization it is the body of Christ. With reference to its relationship to each other, it is the family of God. Don't you see that the church in the New Testament is not and could not be the Baptist Church?

"CHURCH" NEVER REFERS TO BAPTIST CHURCH

If the word "church" never refers to the Baptist Church, then the Baptist Church is eliminated from the Bible. You know, of course, that the expressions "Baptist Church," "Baptist Churches," "Baptists," or "a Baptist" are not to be found in the Bible. We have now shown that the word "church" never refers to the Baptist Church In as much as the Baptists admit that you can be a member of the New Testament Church, the kingdom of God, before and without being a member of the Baptist Church, then it follows that the Baptist Church and the New Testament church are two different institutions, entered at two different times, by two different processes. That is exactly it. This is according to the Baptists, themselves. Therefore the Baptist Church cannot be the New Testament Church.

Do I have to be a member of the Baptist Church to be saved? The Baptists say "no." If they should say "yes," then all the Methodists, Presbyterians, etc. would be going to **** because they are not Baptists. They say that they would not be that "narrow-minded." On page 17 of this little book, Church Manual for Baptist Churches by J. M. Pendleton, and published by the Sunday School Board, Southern Baptist Convention, Nashville, Tennessee, we read, "persons wishing to unite with a church give an account of the dealings of God with their souls, and state the 'reason of the hope that is in them'; whereupon, if, in the judgment of the church they 'have passed from death unto life', they are by vote of the church recognized as candidates for baptism, with the understanding that when they are baptized they are entitled to all the rights and privileges of membership." This simply says that a person desiring to join the Baptist Church must tell that he is saved. The Baptist Church then votes to determine whether the church thinks he is saved or not. They, deciding that he is, receive him into the church after baptism. Hence, he must confess that he is saved, that he is a member of the kingdom of God already, and then, he joins the Baptist Church. This being true, then it follows that a person can be a member of the kingdom of God, or body of Christ, or New Testament Church, before, and without belonging to the Baptist Church.

TWO DIFFERENT PROCESSES OF SALVATION

You had to confess that you were saved before you could join the Baptist Church. When I asked the Baptist preacher if he would baptize me, he asked, "Are you saved, Grover? We want saved people in our church." Then, at services that night I confessed that "God, for Christ's sake, has saved me from my sins" and I went to join the Baptist Church. I was visiting a Baptist Church one time and saw them do it this way: The preacher asked, "Do you believe that you were lost and that you are now saved for Christ's sake?" The reply was "yes." "Do you desire to join the Baptist Church?" "Yes," again. "You have heard the statement, what is your pleasure?" Then they took the vote. Once more I say that this proves, according to Baptists, that a person can be a member of the kingdom of God (saved) before and without being a member of the Baptist Church. Hence, to be a Christian, to be saved, and a member of the kingdom of God, or the church you read about in the Bible is one thing, and to be a Baptist is another. Friends, the conclusion is inevitable. 'THE BAPTIST CHURCH AND THE NEW TESTAMENT CHURCH ARE TWO DIFFERENT PROCESSES. This argument alone should show every honest person why you can't afford to be a Baptist.

THE "VISIBLE AND INVISIBLE" CHURCHES

Baptists teach that the church is used in two senses a visible sense and an invisible sense. They claim that when you are saved, God adds you to His church, the New Testament Church, which is the invisible church. If you are regenerated, you are saved; God knows it, and you know it, but nobody else should pass judgment on you--that is, nobody except the Baptists; they vote it, you know. That makes you a member of the kingdom of God or the New Testament Church, which is the invisible church--to them. Then, you can go to the Baptist Church, relate your experience (tell them you are saved), let them vote on it to decide if you really are, then by baptism you become a member of the Baptist Church which is a visible church. They claim that all denominations are visible churches. They look upon the church of Christ as being just another "visible church" or denomination. That is the reason they think we are so narrow, that is, because they look at us as a church v'. .'. their denominational, NARROW .., and erroneous conception of what the church is. They will say, "I think there are saved people in the church of Christ. I think their doctrine is wrong, but I think there are saved people in "their" church. Again, "I disagree with the Methodists, but I think there are saved people in the Methodist Church." This is because they think of a person being saved in the "invisible church" and then joining a "visible" one. This would be all right if the Bible taught it, but it doesn't.

Friends, the New Testament Church was a visible church. The Jerusalem church was a visible church. It met for worship every Lord's day, yet was no denomination. The church at Corinth met upon the first day of the week, sang, prayed, had preaching, took the Lord's Supper, and contributed of their means, yet it was no denomination. Paul called it, "the church of God" and "the body of Christ." (1 Cor. 1:2; I Cor. 12:27).

[Dawg]

WHOA there buddy. Do you know EVERY Baptist preacher there is? How can you get on this site and bash another's religion? I believe that is against the rules. You are just as wrong in my eyes for trying to FORCE your beliefs on any one of us. You can't speak for every Baptist preacher out there because you have NO idea on what each one of them preaches. You CAN NOT speak out against ALL of them just because ONE of them gave you the wrong impression. I for one KNOW exactly what I preach and it is NOTHING of what you are speaking against and YES I AM A BLOOD BOUGHT BORN AGAIN BIBLE BELIEVING BAPTIST PREACHER.

The Word of God says to work out your own salvation with fear and trembling and I for one have done that and I DO NOT try to force my OPINIONS about any body else's beliefs/religions into your head. I grew up in the Pentecostal church, do you see me BASHING the Pentecostals? NO!!!! You know why?? It's because I'm smart enough to realize that not every one will believe what I have read and BELIEVE.

Are you God? NO!!

So quit tring to be God and cast judgment on any body but yourself.

He who has no sin, let him cast the first stone. You hurling stones when you have no right.

[Guest Turkey Fife]

asdf

Hogdawg,

You are looking at it ALL wrong. Now first you got to remember I was a Baptist, My Mother died a Baptist.

I want you to be right. As much as you want to be right. Do you think I want my Mother Lost. Not hardly!

Did you read the Posts?

I can't execpt the teaching, maybe you can. Would you want me to believe what I posted with ALL my Heart and Mind and not tell you? Is that showing love for you and everyone here? If what I posted is not backed by bible, please don't read it.

Sorry you are upset, OBEY IT OR GROW FROM IT!

[buckee]

I think it's time to lock this thread.

He explained their ease in handling the Bible by telling me that the "Campbellites" only have ten sermons that they memorize and preach everywhere they go. He told me that the church was started by Alexander Campbell, that it was the most narrow-minded and bigoted bunch of people in the world, and they thought everybody was going to **** that didn't belong to their church. When he finished he left such a stigma that I thought, "Well, surely a fellow would be insane who would go with that group."

He was right. You are now preaching the exact thing he warned you about.

Lets reason together (logic)

Any church that makes membership in itself a requirement for entrance into Heaven (not the same as salvation according to the ICC) is not following the Bible. This belief creates logical inconsistencies within the beliefs of that church.

According to the Bible, the church does not decide, or have any say in who is saved and who is not. Only God knows the heart of a man. But any church that believes that membership in itself is necessary for salvation DOES hold the belief that it is the ONLY gateway to God, and therefore able to have a very significant say in who is saved and who is not.

If I joined the ICC, and wanted to be baptized after the 1st or 2nd Bible study, they wouldn't let me. They would make me finish the studies. My heart might be willing to accept the ICC's message, but what if Jesus came back between the time I decided to be baptized, and when the ICC decided to allow me to be baptized? What if I died? According to the beliefs of the ICC, I would have gone to ****, despite my open heart. Making people wait to be saved is not a biblical practise, and you or I would not want to stand before God and answer for that soul. This is one way the ICC can (and, according to its own beliefs and actions, does) control who is saved, and who is not.

If 1. Membership in the ICC is a requirement for salvation, and 2. The ICC has the authority to determine who gets to be a member, and who gets to stay a member, then a logical conclusion is that the ICC can have a very significant say in who is saved, and who goes to **** (just about an equal say with God, to be exact). I am aware that this belief is not supported by the Bible, and I am aware that this is not a belief taught by the ICC. But if beliefs 1 and 2 are held by the ICC, then Belief 3 MUST also be held by the ICC. Whether or not it is written down somewhere, taught, or has ever been mentioned is irrelevant, beliefs 1 and 2 make belief 3 a necessary conclusion.

I understand that the vast majority (if not all) of the members of the International Church of Christ are not out to intentionally deceive their recruits, they honestly believe that what they are teaching is the truth. And for the most part, it is, but their deviations from the truth are significant, and the presence of just one lie makes the entire teaching false.

So here are your words back at you, and the words of the gospel also. There are other(many) religions who are sincere, but they are sincerely wrong. If you think the name of your church somehow makes you special, and true in the eyes of the Lord, you're way off track. If you think somehow that your water baptism has saved you, your way off track.

“By this you know the Spirit of God: every spirit which confesses that Jesus Christ

has come in the flesh is of God, and every spirit which does not confess Jesus is not of God. This is the spirit of antichrist.”