Oklahoma Deer Herd Talk ( Okies Read )

[The_Kat]

Ok, I am going to take some heat for this post probably, but I want you guys to stop and think about what I am going to say for a second before you start defending the old saying " Hunters in the know take a doe".

Most of you already know that the total kill number for whitetails in Oklahoma is the smallest it has been in many years. Hughes County ( Where I live ) turned in a mere 468 deer when the usual total is close to 1000.

So I had a chat with my game warden today and I asked him why the numbers were so low and was horrified at his reply. He told me that we ( eastern ) oklahoma were simply killing the deer off. He said that killing does is not the answer to blancing the herd, because if there are less bucks now then the more doe you kill take away from the chances of making new fawns. Each doe taken on average takes away 2 fawns per season. Now when the doe kill total comes out this year take the total, multiply it by two and see what you get. Compare that total to the past two years and you all should see that it is dramtically higher this season. The "doe kill" message is out and is possibly outta control. Tom (game warden) said that in certain parts of Oklahoma such as Western Oklahoma and spots here in the east DO in fact need to thin some does but the areas that are showing lower kill numbers need to OPEN their eyes to the facts. Only DOES can have fawns. It just takes one buck to breed 20 does. You do the math there! I asked him what we could do about it, and he said spread the word. He told me I would take some serious heat for this view, but I stopped and thought it through and he is right! He said that if the doe kill isn't stopped, then the Oklahoma deer herd could become non-existent within two more seasons. I asked him how he could say that and be sure. He said look at the kill totals and they show a trend of losing 20,000 deer a year in the past two years and this season it will drop HALF of what it did last year. I mean we killed 100000+ 3 years ago and now we can barely hit 70000 is what they papers are saying. 30000 deer is a lot of deer folks. So I encourage all of you to have a chat with your game wardens and ask their opinions on the subject. Ask them about the doe count in your area. Like I said it isn't this way in all of Oklahoma, but in most places in the east....it is fact. Just look at the mathmatical totals. As for me and my house...we will no longer be harvesting more than ONE mature doe a year.

[huntinsonovagun]

Re: Oklahoma Deer Herd Talk ( Okies Read )

Deer with no hunting pressure have a 1:1 ratio, or close to that. With hunting pressure we have WAY MORE does than we do bucks. The reason for the "Hunters in the know take a doe" is to increase the health of our deer herd. I am not convinced that our herd is declining. Most I have talked to have said they had a bad season this year. I think it was just 2004, not declining deer herds.

Also, I think there are too many deer. What is wrong with a few less??

I saw way more deer than I could legally harvest.....how do you explain that? Maybe people should get out and hunt harder. I had an AWESOME season, yet numbers are way down?? Maybe I hunted harder than the average guy, but that is what it takes.

I still feel we need to get the ratio closer to 1:1. Last time I checked, it takes bucks and does to have fawns.

Another benefit to less does, bucks are going to be more aggressive and easier to call in.

Last time I checked, buck harvests are MUCH higher than doe harvests.....how do you explain that?

No bringing heat on you, but your game warden obviously hasn't thought through what he is saying......

[The_Kat]

Re: Oklahoma Deer Herd Talk ( Okies Read )

Ok Ryan...think on this. I too see more deer than I can legally harvest. Thats seeing 6 deer+ a year. I don't get your point there. Your right in saying that it takes bucks and does to make babies, but one buck is capable of breeding 20 does. Now I don't think it is fair to say one guys hunts harder then another blah blah blah and thats the reason he doesn't kill a deer. Roughly 500000 hunters take to the field in Oklahoma each season. So if the deer are out there they are going to be seen and killed, weekend warrior or day to day warrior, it's all the same. Lack of hunters has never been a problem in Oklahoma.

*Another benefit to less does, bucks are going to be more aggressive and easier to call in.*

I don't agree with this statement at all. Are you saying that you would rather have it "easier" to call in bucks versus harming the deer herd in Oklahoma? Now whose wanting to hunt hard??? I don't get your assumptions. Now I am not saying your wrong either here though. In your area the population may be ok. Thats why I said ASK your game warden about your populations. Was your kill numbers up or down this year?

As for 2004 being the only bad season...your very wrong there. 3 years ago we hit 100000+. The year after we barely hit 90000. This year they are saying 70000 if we are lucky. Thats not good my friend. That should tell you that something is very wrong because 30000 animals is enough to make this hunter raise an eyebrow........

Buck harvests will always be higher then doe harvests. Horns are why alot of people hunt you know that. What relevance does that have to the question at hand.

The deer herd in spots is to large and in other is declining. This deals with the spots of delcining deer herds!

[RyanH]

Re: Oklahoma Deer Herd Talk ( Okies Read )

I can agree with you Kyle! Up north and off to the east I can Agree! But anywhere else i disagree! I have seen so many deer this year! Its just been crazy! The reason i think the kill numbers are down is cause of the crazy weather we have had! I really really think the weather had a big effect on it!

Where I hunt In konawa its nothing to go all season and see 5 bucks! If that! Now this year was WAY different! I saw a buck just about everytime i went!

But To sum this up! I agree in parts of the state and disagree in other parts of the state!

[huntinsonovagun]

Re: Oklahoma Deer Herd Talk ( Okies Read )

[ QUOTE ]

I too see more deer than I can legally harvest. Thats seeing 6 deer+ a year. I don't get your point there.

[/ QUOTE ] Just because people aren't killing deer doesn't mean they are not there.

[ QUOTE ]

Your right in saying that it takes bucks and does to make babies, but one buck is capable of breeding 20 does.

[/ QUOTE ] In unhunted herds, bucks don't breed 20 does. Rather, only mature bucks do majority of breeding, and then they don't do near as much breeding. I am actually surprized at how many does don't have fawns.....maybe the bucks can't get the job done with all the does running around.

[ QUOTE ]

I don't agree with this statement at all. Are you saying that you would rather have it "easier" to call in bucks versus harming the deer herd in Oklahoma?

[/ QUOTE ] Ok, right now, the deer herd is being harmed because there is not an accurate ratio of bucks to does. Really, that statement of mine didn't have much to do with the topic, other than a hunter's perspective.

[ QUOTE ]

Buck harvests will always be higher then doe harvests. Horns are why alot of people hunt you know that.

[/ QUOTE ] Think about what you're saying......why do you think they are pushing the "Hunters in the know take a doe"?!?!? I feel the ratio needs to be brought down to a 1:1, or 2:1....shoot, even a 3:1 would be better than our ratio now!

In fact, I have no problem with people only shooting one doe a year, I just would hate to see everyone shoot 3 bucks and only 1 doe. If every buck bred 20 does and you killed one doe and 3 bucks, how could the 4th buck breed the other 3's 60 combined deer?????? Puts a lot of stress on them. Oklahoma has a pretty long drawn-out rut compared to say Iowa or Kansas, because we have too many does. With a closer ratio, the bucks would breed their 1 or 2 does and then be done, with less stress on the herd.

Harvest total for

1999- 82,724

2000- 102,100

2001- 101,635

2002- 98,581

2003- 100,602

Looks pretty steady to me, considering there is no way to predict how deer react to weather and human pressure. Look at 1999 compared to 2000. Those numbers are drastic!!!

I still feel the ratio should be closer to 1:1.

[Texan_Til_I_Die]

Re: Oklahoma Deer Herd Talk ( Okies Read )

The reason you balance a deer herd at 1:1 or as close as you can get to it, is to help with the quality of the hunting (re: more bucks!). So you've got to ask yourself, "Do I want quality, or do I want quantity?" Do you want to go hunting and see lots of does, young bucks and an occasional mature buck, or do you want to go and see fewer deer but more mature bucks?

[The_Kat]

Re: Oklahoma Deer Herd Talk ( Okies Read )

I guess you'll see what I am talking about in the kill total when it comes out. By the way the 2003 harvest is incorrect. Call OWD and ask for the REAL total. It's barely 90000.

What I am saying is that we need to take a deeper look into taking does before we shoot them. If your population is stable then take em as you please. IF it is faltering like much of eastern oklahoma, then I suggest you slow down or simply put your going to run out of deer.

[Guest okiehunter]

Re: Oklahoma Deer Herd Talk ( Okies Read )

I have to agree with huntin'sonovagun on this one. There are going to be deer in 2, 3, or 20 years from now taking alot of does won't change that. If that was the case we wouldn't have any deer for all the bucks that people take. I also think if you want to blame the lower number of deer taken blame it on the weather. Living in southern Ok and what I remember seeing in alot of Ok during early archery, black powder, and rifle season was rain and most people won't hunt when its raining good. Now with these fair weather hunters not hunting on most of their only days off (the weekend) due to rain. If I was a betting man I would bet that if you went back and compare the number of deer with what the weather was for each day of the season that you would see a drastic drop in deer taken on the weekends when it was raining. I don't believe this was the only reason for the drop but I do believe it would explain a huge drop in numbers for this year. One other thing about the numbers not being accurate for 03 and being only 90,000 and not 100,000. Why would they inflate numbers like that when they have logs to show all deer reported to the check stations? I don't by that one at all.

[huntinsonovagun]

Re: Oklahoma Deer Herd Talk ( Okies Read )

[ QUOTE ]

By the way the 2003 harvest is incorrect. Call OWD and ask for the REAL total. It's barely 90000.

[/ QUOTE ]

I copy and pasted that total straight from OWD's web site.....so now they don't have their facts straight

[hutchies]

Re: Oklahoma Deer Herd Talk ( Okies Read )

The problem in my area is people killing spikes. We have a good buck and doe population but for some reason people will not pass on a spike.

[The_Kat]

Re: Oklahoma Deer Herd Talk ( Okies Read )

If you doubt what I am telling you about the kill total for 2003, then do as I said and simply call the OWD and ask them. I know it is printed in the regulations and is on the website. That is what I told my game warden also.

And to counter you guys and your weather points......During rifle season the weather was fine and yet the count was still down dramtically. Explain that. I encourage you guys to call this game warden and listen to what he has to say. His name is Tom Cartwright. He is listed in the regulations under Hughes County. He is a biologist as well, so I figure he knows a bit more than the average guy when it comes to the deer herd at least in Hughes county. Now once again I ask you to stay out of this topic if you deer population and kill totals for this season were normal. Obviously it wouldn't pertain to you-such as western oklahoma-some spots in eastern oklahoma.

To tell you the truth, I hope I am as wrong as I can be here...but all the evidence I see points to declining deer numbers.

[maddhunter]

Re: Oklahoma Deer Herd Talk ( Okies Read )

Not to argue but the deer herd in my area of hunting has fallen off alot in the last 2 years. I'm going by what I have seen and recorded with my game camera all year long. I was used to seeing 10--15 doe in a herd before the rut and this year only 6 all combined. I have seen and recorded 6 bucks with my camera and seen 3 of them myself.

I think the herd in my hunting area is about right, as far as the ratio goes, with 3 of those bucks being muture bucks over 3 yrs old.

I still would like to see more deer as a total. You know a doe has a 50/50 chance of haveing a buck fawn.

In my opinion the "Hunters In The Know" was influinced by the insurance companies, due to all the money they pay out for cars hitting deer every year.

[Texan_Til_I_Die]

Re: Oklahoma Deer Herd Talk ( Okies Read )

[ QUOTE ]

The problem in my area is people killing spikes. We have a good buck and doe population but for some reason people will not pass on a spike.

[/ QUOTE ]

Granted that letting spikes (or any young buck) walk will get you more bucks later, but letting the spikes go will ultimately hurt the quality of antlers in that area. Its a scientifically verified fact (40 year study on captive deer by TPWD) that yearling spikes will never produce large antlered bucks when they mature. I personally shoot every spike that I legally can and let the young 6 and 8 pointers go. If everyone did that, you would be absolutely amazed at the improvement in the antlers in your deer herd.

(OK - I know I'll catch some poopy over this, but being a scientist makes me tend to believe the results of sound scientific work)

[1olhunter]

Re: Oklahoma Deer Herd Talk ( Okies Read )

I started hunting deer in Oklahoma while in high school in the mid 1970s. I remember the state setting a record harvest of 15,000 deer. I find the number of deer we currently have in the state remarkable. In the 70s and early 80s much of the state was nearly void of deer and just seeing a deer was something special. From 1975 through 2000 there was a new harvest record set every year until we reached a harvest of 100, 000 animals. It can not continue to grow forever, there is only a limited (and shrinking) amount of habitat. I would be surprised if the total harvest drops to 70,000 this year, but if it does I am sure the good folks at the OWD will make the necessary changes in the regulations to turn things around again. I have a lot of confidence in OWD due to the good job they have done in the past. As for my year I have added 4 to the harvest totals I have taken 2 does with bow, 1 buck each with ML and rifle. I saw slightly fewer deer this year, but I would suggest the hot weather during ML season and warm rifle season did not help the hunting. My only suggestion to OWD is that I would like to see a 3 point or better on one side antler point restriction.

[The_Kat]

Re: Oklahoma Deer Herd Talk ( Okies Read )

olhunter,

I totally agree with your on the 3 to a side restriction on all sides except one. I hate to tell a kid he can't shoot the first buck that walks out rather it be a spike, fork horn etc. My first buck was a spike and I was never more proud. But other than that small fault, I agree to the restriction. I have always said the earn a buck tag to kill at least one doe would be another great thing. This would ensure a balanced kill for bucks and does, but I don't see it happening. I PRAY I am wrong here guys. I am not saying that deer will become non-existent. I am just saying the 100000+ kill total may dissappear for some time.

[horst]

Re: Oklahoma Deer Herd Talk ( Okies Read )

Im gonna go with YB on this one.The same things happened here.They went from buck only tags to either sex tags for all seasons, then they added extra antlerless only tags on top of that.

The problem was to many deer in certain areas of the state, particulairly lagre urban areas in the southern part of the state.Up here we didnt have the problems with them they did in other areas but the either sex tags were a statewide deal and they have doubled the number of extra antlerless only tags in the two counties I hunt.I scout, shed hunt, and hunt deer probably 9 months a year, during season I hunt almost everyday for 3 months straight so I can tell you for a fact, when you start killing massive numbers of does its gonna do several things to your deer herd, Ive seen it first hand.

First, the numbers start to go down, which is ok as long as they regulate it.They dont and after 5 or 6 years of slaughtering large numbers of does the math YB did comes into play, for every hundred does killed thats somewhere between 200 and three hundred less deer your gonna have around next year, the following year double that, and etc...Now figure those does have somewhere near a 50/50 doe- buck fawn ratio.Sure your seeing more mature bucks at first because more people are killing does, but theres nowhere near the number of bucks being born every spring to keep the buck numbers up.Add in the huge number of button bucks mistakenly shot for does and your putting a huge dent in your buck population weather you realize it or not.

Secondly- the big does are the ones being shot, the fawns are for the most part skipped over.Which is also fine, up to a point.But late in the year when there 20 or 30 does bunched in herds and theres no mature does in ith them somethings definately outta wack.Last year we had a terrible winter, deep snow, ice, and very cold.This spring the number of winter killed deer I found was mind blowing, there were literally dead deer all over.Most of them were fawns who had no experience deaing with a winter like that and no adult does there to help guide them through it.Coyotes killed a lot of them in the deep snow, Im positive a lot just starved.

This year the deer numbers have been the lowest ive ever seen, its not that im trouble finding deer, they simply arent there.Heres the kicker, when they compile the number of does harvested this year, the numbers going to be way below what it was last year.They have more or less already said if the deer harvest numbers arent high enough even more doe tags will be given out next year, its a never ending cycle of stupidity.You cant keep up the harvest numbers when the deer arent there to shoot, and raising the number of tags isnt gonna bring them up.

Yet theres still an overpopulation of does in other areas of the state.Thats where the problem lies.They manage the deer herd as a whole, promote shooting does statewide, and dont pay any attention to the areas that didnt have a problem to start with.Shooting does is fine and really is benificial to the deer herd, but its also gotta be monitered on a more local level, southern iowas population and ours are 2 entirely different things, yet their treated the same

[The_Kat]

Re: Oklahoma Deer Herd Talk ( Okies Read )

Exactly Horst....We need to break up the tags into sections of the state....but that would cost money so it will never happen.

[DannoBoone1]

Re: Oklahoma Deer Herd Talk ( Okies Read )

Very good points, horst. The late, late season is restricted

to does only, and how DNR comes up with the numbers

for various counties probably has more to do with road

kill and human populations than true deer numbers. More

vehicles in any given area will result in more deer road

kills, no matter how many deer there are.

The area around here has definately had fewer deer

the last couple of years, and this (Linn) county is

considered to have one of the higher deer populations.

I would have to say that their "count" is way off for this

area this year.

[Texan_Til_I_Die]

Re: Oklahoma Deer Herd Talk ( Okies Read )

[ QUOTE ]

This to Texan Til I Die, you really need to update your game management info. QDMA has published more recent studies that completely contradict TPWD. The "once a spike always a spike" mind set is pretty much out the window. I NEVER shoot yearling bucks.

[/ QUOTE ]

The data I'm looking at doesn't indicate the "once a spike, always..." theory at all. BUT, it does indicate that taken as a group (which is the only way you can manage a deer herd) spikes as 1 1/2 year olds will never develop into the same class of animal in either antler size or body size as will the deer with forked antlers at 1 1/2. Yes, you can grow spikes into something like 120 - 130 class bucks, but you won't get the 150 - 180 class "trophies" that we all want. The data I'm looking at contains information as recent as 2003.

[fisherguy]

Re: Oklahoma Deer Herd Talk ( Okies Read )

Just a side note since i have no clue about the situation in Oaklahoma aside from what i read here. If you check, you will see harvest #'s for most big game animals across north america were down. Not all but the majority. This is likely due to the wacky weather. For example, our deer herd is out of control(well was before all the snow). This summer i saw more deer than ever, and population surveys showed an all time high for the area...come fall success was no higher than any other year, and maybe lower. This was due to very warm weather. once it turned cool the deer and moose were moving again and the last week of season it was superb hunting. Just have to wait and see if the lower #'s in your area really do indacate fewer deer.

[hutchies]

Re: Oklahoma Deer Herd Talk ( Okies Read )

I am talking about before they even have a chance to develop horns. People here are shooting button bucks constantly. I would understand if it was a way out there and they thought they were shooting a doe. But these people are shooting buttons at 20-30 yards and they know what they are shooting when they shoot.

[The_Kat]

Re: Oklahoma Deer Herd Talk ( Okies Read )

"then perhaps you should call the State Attorney General or the Oklahoma State Bureau of Investigation and ask them to begin a criminal investigation."

Nice used of words. I commend you for your effort at sarcasm.

Did you ever call like I told you too????