Doc Posted January 1, 2005 Report Share Posted January 1, 2005 Well, I finally read through the section of the NYSCC's ( http://www.nyscc.com/grn_1204.htm ) web-site that deals with the proposed season changes. It is pretty much the same as the explanations on the DEC's site, except with a lot more detail. There is a lot there that bowhunters and even shotgunners should be concerned with. The first thing that caught my eye was a bit of deception obviously designed to garner sympathy for the muzzleloaders. The following sentence is just flat untrue: "Under the existing season structure, they are restricted to an either sex, seven-day season, immediately following the close of the regular season". There are no laws that restrict the use of muzzleloaders throughout the entire regular gun season. The next item was the statement that, "An antlerless only season has the potential to be very popular and could help to increase overall antlerless deer harvest and DMP success rate, which is currently at an all time low of 17%". Unfortunately, I absolutely agree with their assessment of the popularity potential of this new season. If many displaced bowhunters decide to take up the muzzleloader, and many envious shotgunners decide to get involved in this special week just to get an opportunity to get a first crack at the herd, this early muzzleloader season has the potential to rival the normal opening day of gun season in terms of alerting the deer herd. If this should happen, you can absolutely write off the following week of bow season. All of your scouting and patterning efforts will be destroyed by a herd that has been driven into early, and very effective survival tactics and patterns. I wouldn't hold out too much hope for things being back to normal in the last week of early bow season either. For that matter, if I was a shotgunner counting on the normal, very active, opening day of regular gun season, I wouldn't really be all that hopeful either. The other half of that statement about the 17% success rate ....... all I can say is that if the success rate has reached an all time low of 17%, even though record high numbers of permits are being issued, perhaps this number is trying to tell you that it is time to back off the number of antlerless permits a bit instead of trying to find new ways to mow the herd down even further. Finally, I ran into a section which refers to: "several other potential season change options that have been suggested, but need additional consideration and input" These are things that have not really been debated much on these forums, and yet some of the most damaging proposals are contained in this section. The first of these that caused a bit of concern was the following: "Consideration of creating "primitive implement" (flintlock) opportunities" Now, this is not a replacement for muzzleloading seasons, but rather in addition to. Where do you suppose they will put this new primitive implement season? You don't suppose this will be another bowhunter sacrifice, do you? The next one I came to was : "Consideration for the use of crossbows for deer hunting". Are we looking at the next special interest group to eventually ask for and receive a portion of the bow season? Why not? If it becomes easy for the muzzleloaders and the flintlock people, it would have be very attractive thing for crossbow enthusiasts. Here's one for the shotgunners: "Consideration of a trial either-sex early muzzleloader season in the portions of the Southern Zone after evaluating the results of the proposed seasons and the impacts on other hunters, deer harvest and hunter satisfaction". Well, shotgunners, there goes the number of bucks that you get to start your season with. So not only will your doe herd be whacked down and running scared, but the few bucks that you normally get to see will be knocked down substantially as well. I have been saying right along that these proposals are only the beginning. Well now you are getting a glimpse into some of the follow-on activities that they have planned. By the way, don't expect the muzzleloaders to be satisfied with just a single week of early season forever. They will use the same arguments until they have received parity with archers. You can count on it! If bowhunters roll over and do not fight the majority of these proposals, we are going to find ourselves pushed right out of the picture. If we are perceived as push-overs, you can expect every special interest group to be rushing to divide up our portion of the pie. I would suggest we start doing some writing and meeting attending and fight this stuff like our entire sport depended on it. It very well might. Below, I have added the draft schedule for these proposals. Doc ------------------------------------------------------------------- Draft Schedule for proposal: December 1, 2004 - Rulemaking Initiation Memorandum submitted to Executive staff. January 15, 2005 - Approved Rulemaking Package submitted to Dept of State. February 1, 2005 - Rulemaking notice appears in the NYS Register, - Public comment period begins. - State of the Deer Herd 2005 outreach begins. Mid- March, 2005 - Public Comment period concludes. - Notice of adoption submitted to Dept of State for publication in the NYS register April 1, 2005 - Revised regulation package adopted. -Season structure change announced in a News Release and DEC website. July/August, 2005 - Season structure appears in 2005-06 Hunting & Trapping Guide & hunter mailings. 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cutter10x Posted January 1, 2005 Report Share Posted January 1, 2005 Re: More on NY Season Changes first off......i agree that some of the changes may not sit well with some of you bow hunters out there....which i am one of....however the one comment i must address is the fact that every single one of you that complain about the muzzleloaders...is total BS..and this doesnt include the antlerless early season cause i dont know if that is the right way to go....however i do believe that the muzzleloaders dont get a fair shake in terms of season length...extend the season longer...i dont care..but to say that they have the whole regular season is total BS cause you can use a bow then to. so technically the bowhunters can hunt the whole archery season+the whole regular season+the late archery season...where as the muzzleloaders have the muzzleloader season+the week after. and thats it. so that portion i dont feel has any grouds for discussion...... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NY911Bowhunter Posted January 1, 2005 Report Share Posted January 1, 2005 Re: More on NY Season Changes I too followed the link from bowsite; I liked this part; - "Adding up the two weeks to the to the current special archery season OFFSETS THE LOSS of opportunity resulting from the one week early special muzzloader season that is also proposed." If by offsetting the loss they mean "Sorry to mess up your season with all these guns going off, but here, try to bag a deer in your t shirt and jeans!" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NY911Bowhunter Posted January 1, 2005 Report Share Posted January 1, 2005 Re: More on NY Season Changes [ QUOTE ] i must address is the fact that every single one of you that complain about the muzzleloaders...is total BS [/ QUOTE ] My pardons, Your Majesty. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BuckNrut Posted January 1, 2005 Report Share Posted January 1, 2005 Re: More on NY Season Changes The way things are headed, I anticipate some folks will drop out of the bowhunting ranks. How many deer can one hunter eat anyway? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doc Posted January 1, 2005 Author Report Share Posted January 1, 2005 Re: More on NY Season Changes [ QUOTE ] but to say that they have the whole regular season is total BS cause you can use a bow then to. [/ QUOTE ] The one big difference that you apparently are not grasping is that the bow is a 20 - 25 yard weapon for most bowhunters, and there effectiveness is almost nil in gun season. With a weapon that requires that kind of close proximity, it is essential to have a relatively undisturbed deer herd to have a chance of success. That in fact is the justification for the early bow season. However, the muzzleloader, on the other hand is a weapon that is superior in range and accuracy to most of the shotguns and actually affords the muzzleloader a better chance at success than the shotgun during the regular season. That is very big difference indeed my friend. As a matter of fact, I really don't see any reason for muzzleloaders to have any special seasons (early or late). That's kind of like giving a special season to those who use pump shotguns. It makes just about as much sense. And don't give me any nonsense about how flintlocks don't have the accuracy or reliability of shotguns. The official DEC definition of muzzleloaders includes every modern muzzleloader equipped with the best telescopic sights that you can choose, which can outshoot any shotgun out there. Before long, we will have shotgunners claiming that they need an early season. You know what? they will have just as much justification as the muzzleloaders. Doc Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cutter10x Posted January 2, 2005 Report Share Posted January 2, 2005 Re: More on NY Season Changes i never mentioned flintlocks.....i was going to get into you about this ..but i cant..were all ny hunters and we need to stick together.....so i have no more comment on this subject............. bring on the longbeards....................... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NY911Bowhunter Posted January 2, 2005 Report Share Posted January 2, 2005 Re: More on NY Season Changes I like the idea Dave.....but... 1. I dont think I could do it! Even if bow season was 2 days in July, I would have to be there! Its just in my blood! 2. If the bowhunters dont help to manage the herd, DEC will just sya "Ok then, Muzzleloaders, since they dont want a season, go ahead and start on Oct1, let us know when youre done!. Thanks Guys, you're the best!" Unfortunalty - or fortunalty depending on how you look at it - the true "hard core bowhunters" that could give a rat's rear about hunting with a gun are few and far. As stated, most NY Bowhunters are gun hunters, and ML hunters. If they cant use one weapon, they'll pick up another! Dang Shame here in NY. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doc Posted January 2, 2005 Author Report Share Posted January 2, 2005 Re: More on NY Season Changes [ QUOTE ] If everyone boycotted the entire bow season and didn't purchase the stamp or the muzzleloader stamp I bet it would throw a spin to the herd. [/ QUOTE ] Well, a boycott may just get real easy to accomplish for me. In my locality, the slash and burn tactics of the DEC have reduced the herd down to the point where spotting a deer is getting to be somewhat of a novelty. Another season or two of this coupled with muzzleloader interference right at the beginning of the prime part of the bow season, the frustration level may become just a bit too much for me. Doc Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NY911Bowhunter Posted January 3, 2005 Report Share Posted January 3, 2005 Re: More on NY Season Changes You'd miss out on hunting at the Smackdown though..... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NY911Bowhunter Posted January 4, 2005 Report Share Posted January 4, 2005 Re: More on NY Season Changes ....dang. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doc Posted January 4, 2005 Author Report Share Posted January 4, 2005 Re: More on NY Season Changes Yes, this is a real slap in the face for all bowhunters, and it represents a real change in attitude toward us by the DEC and the NYSCC. We are definately on the defensive and there is no doubt that these organizations have declared open season on our designated times in the woods. Doc Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rayzorp Posted January 4, 2005 Report Share Posted January 4, 2005 Re: More on NY Season Changes I agree with Doc, it's more like a slap in the face. But I'm willing to give it a chance. I hunt rifle ans shotgun, but nothing beats a good bowhunt. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rossman Posted January 4, 2005 Report Share Posted January 4, 2005 Re: More on NY Season Changes It is like a bad dream. Why the heck should they change it. What is wrong with adding another week of muzzleloader at the end. Then the muzzleloaders will have an extra week to kill a buck, not just a doe. All bull crap if you ask me. Some ignorant, over confident NY state official thinks he has the right to wreck our bow season. We should find out where he hunts and pee and poop all over his hunting area!!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NYBUCK Posted January 5, 2005 Report Share Posted January 5, 2005 Re: More on NY Season Changes Rossman, he probably doesn't even hunt, prolly sits at hit desk all day and pushes pencils. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doc Posted January 5, 2005 Author Report Share Posted January 5, 2005 Re: More on NY Season Changes [ QUOTE ] But I'm willing to give it a chance. [/ QUOTE ] You are not giving it a chance. This is not a trial to see whether you like it or not. This is a permanent change in the legal seasons. You had better think long and hard before you cave in to this proposal. It's a one-way deal and there is no going back once it is passed. That's the problem I see with bowhunter attitudes on this proposal. There just doesn't seem to be any commitment to the bow. To many, the bow is just another hunting tool that can be swapped with any other hunting tool. Thinking like that is going to lead to the end of bowhunting as we know it. I'm afraid that when the rest of the hunting world finds out just how disorganized and uncommitted bowhunters are, every special interest hunting group will be coming for what's left of our season. Doc Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rossman Posted January 6, 2005 Report Share Posted January 6, 2005 Re: More on NY Season Changes We should shove Dick Henry's muzzleloader up his butt and throw him out of NYS!!!! Has anyone heard of any meetings, in which we could fight this? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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