BamaTrae Posted October 5, 2007 Report Share Posted October 5, 2007 Calvinism is a system of doctrine that is taught in most evangelical denominations. There are 5 major points of Calvinism. These 5 points are known by the acronym: T.U.L.I.P. T = Total Depravity (Inherited Sin) U = Unconditional election (predestination) L = Limited atonement (Christ didn't die for all mankind) I = Irresistible grace (if you were "elected" you will follow) P = Perseverance of the saints (Once Saved always saved) IMHO, if you prove that any one of these points are false then the whole system falls. No one item can stand on it's own. It is very hard for a Calvinist to debate any one of these points without presupposing the other points. My choice for the weakest link is the last point, commonly called "Once saved always saved." The New Testament is filled with warnings about falling away and becoming unfaithful. Here are a few: Matthew 25:1-13 Luke 8:13 Galatians 6:1 1 Timothy 4:1 1 Timothy 5:8 2 Timothy 2:16-18 Hebrews 10:38-39 James 5:19-20 Revelation 2:4-5 Revelation 3:5 Revelation 3:16-17 All of these passages are speaking to Christians and either telling of their falling away or warning them of that possibility, why warn us of something that cannot happen? These are only a sampling, there are many, many more. God bless you all, Trae Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dawg Posted October 5, 2007 Report Share Posted October 5, 2007 OK, here I go........ MHO is that we can not loose our salvation. Why do I believe this, well thanks for asking.......here's why and no it's not because I'm a Baptist:D. Why would God take back something (salvation) that He gave everyhthing for? I believe that one can, as I call it, "backslide" but can't loose his/her salvation. Thus this is why God has to chastise those who do (Hebrews 12:7-13). I often tell the congregation that I pastor that I believe in the security of the believer, but the believer will do everything to stay secure. So "falling away" to me is the same as "backsliding". As for the other 4 parts that you have brought to light......I disagree with all of them. God's Word says that He wishes that all would come to repentance. That does away with the predestination and the "only the elected will receive grace". I don't believe we inherit sin, but I do believe that sin tanted the blood of mankind when Adam disobeyed God and has been passed on every since, not inherited. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Turkey Fife Posted October 5, 2007 Report Share Posted October 5, 2007 asdf Gal.5 [1] Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage. [2] Behold, I Paul say unto you, that if ye be circumcised, Christ shall profit you nothing. [3] For I testify again to every man that is circumcised, that he is a debtor to do the whole law. [4] Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace. Of course this is talking about the Old Law. However the POINT Still Stands. (If Not, Why Not?) and what does it say, YOU HAVE FALLEN FROM GRACE. You must have help to not understand these VS's. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnf Posted October 5, 2007 Report Share Posted October 5, 2007 I think you would be suprised to know that most Southern Baptist are not Calvinis't. I'm not. I do believe "Once saved always saved". If we look at the word "Grace" it is unmerited favor, which means we do nothing to deserve it. The only way we get grace, is to believe that we've got it. If all sin, then we are never worthy of salvation regardless of what we do. It's only grace that gets us there and faith is the vehicle. When we believe we are written into the lambs book of life. If we are to believe that every time we sin then we must be born again, and again and again.......then we live a life of constant fear that we'll get caught at the wrong time in death. I can't imagine how awefull that would be. I ask two simple questions. How many times can you be born to life? How many times can you be born unto Christ? Any time you hear about any falling away, you never hear of someone returning. So then if it is possible to loose your salvation then it is impossible to regain it IMHO. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnf Posted October 5, 2007 Report Share Posted October 5, 2007 Gal.5 [1] Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage. [2] Behold, I Paul say unto you, that if ye be circumcised, Christ shall profit you nothing. [3] For I testify again to every man that is circumcised, that he is a debtor to do the whole law. [4] Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace. Of course this is talking about the Old Law. However the POINT Still Stands. (If Not, Why Not?) and what does it say, YOU HAVE FALLEN FROM GRACE. You must have help to not understand these VS's. Those jews had chosen to be under the law rather than grace. The Grace of the old testiment was through sacrifice and obedience and they had not accepted the new covinent of Grace through Christ. Verse 4 clearly shows that. Christ was no affect on them because they had not accepted him. Abrahams seed were saved by the promise of coming grace of Christ. When He came that promised grace was there for the accepting, and they had not accepted it. I don't agree with your logic on this post, but I can follow it. Some of your earlier post were not as well thought out and I honestly couldn't see what your point was. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dawg Posted October 5, 2007 Report Share Posted October 5, 2007 I think you would be suprised to know that most Southern Baptist are not Calvinis't. I'm not. I do believe "Once saved always saved". If we look at the word "Grace" it is unmerited favor, which means we do nothing to deserve it. The only way we get grace, is to believe that we've got it. If all sin, then we are never worthy of salvation regardless of what we do. It's only grace that gets us there and faith is the vehicle. When we believe we are written into the lambs book of life. If we are to believe that every time we sin then we must be born again, and again and again.......then we live a life of constant fear that we'll get caught at the wrong time in death. I can't imagine how awefull that would be. I ask two simple questions. How many times can you be born to life? How many times can you be born unto Christ? Any time you hear about any falling away, you never hear of someone returning. So then if it is possible to loose your salvation then it is impossible to regain it IMHO. That's good stuff right there John, most Independent Baptist aren't Calvanist either. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
buckee Posted October 5, 2007 Report Share Posted October 5, 2007 Amen to your last two posts John Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BamaTrae Posted October 6, 2007 Author Report Share Posted October 6, 2007 Johnf said: I think you would be suprised to know that most Southern Baptist are not Calvinis't. I'm not. I do believe "Once saved always saved".” I’m not…but I am. ; ) If you agree with any of it, wouldn’t you at least be a “little” Calvinist? I don’t agree with everything in our government, but I’m a proud American, 1 Kings 18:21 If we look at the word "Grace" it is unmerited favor, which means we do nothing to deserve it. The only way we get grace, is to believe that we've got it. I agree, that grace is unmerited favor. Absolutely. And our salvation is “by grace through faith” (Ephesians 2:8). But, where we differ is on the point of man’s responsibility. God says that grace must be accessed – “[/font]Therefore, having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom also we have access by faith into this grace in which we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God.” – Romans 5:1-2 Please indulge me while I illustrate: If we were all standing together in a group, about 20 of us and just talking and hanging out. When one of us, (who all the others know is rich beyond our wildest dreams) says whoever wants this $100.00 dollar bill can have it. Immediately Johnf steps toward him and grabs the $100.00 dollar bill! Did Johnf deserve that hundred dollars? No. Did he do anything to earn it? No. It was given by the grace of the friend. Out of his love for all of us, he made $100.00 dollars available to us all, but only Johnf got it, because he did what it took to “access” the money! He was first, he stepped toward the friend, and he took hold of the money. None of those things that he did merited his becoming richer, but he did. The plan of salvation is the same way, we don’t do anything to deserve salvation, we cannot be “good enough” for that holy and amazing grace. Nothing good we do will merit that gift, but there it is, and the way to “access” that gift is to take the necessary steps of acceptance. Again, the conditions of the gospel are the steps we must take, we must believe (Romans 10:10), repent (Acts 2:38), Confess Jesus as the Son of God (Matthew 10:32), be baptized for the remission of sins (Romans 6:1-4) and live faithfully (Hebrews 11:6). In NO WAY do these meager responses to God’s divine love entitle us to salvation, but they are exactly what we read in the Bible that the people did to access the grace of God and receive salvation. Now I think Johnf should take us out to dinner with his $100.00! ; ) Any time you hear about any falling away, you never hear of someone returning. So then if it is possible to loose your salvation then it is impossible to regain it IMHO. That is just not true. Remember “Simon the Sorcerer?” Acts 8:9-25, Simon is saved in verse 13. His heart is obviously “right with God.” But sometime after his conversion he saw the Apostles lay hands on other Christians and they received the Holy Spirit, (the miraculous portion) he wanted the Apostle’s power to pass along the Holy Spirit! Notice what Peter says to him starting in verse 21, "Peter answered: "May your money perish with you, because you thought you could buy the gift of God with money! You have no part or share in this ministry, because your heart is not right before God. Repent of this wickedness and pray to the Lord. Perhaps he will forgive you for having such a thought in your heart. For I see that you are full of bitterness and captive to sin." Then Simon answered, "Pray to the Lord for me so that nothing you have said may happen to me." This is a saved guy that falls to the temptation of greed and power! Because of his fall to that temptation he is lost in sin, “captive to sin.” He was saved, but he fell away due to the sin in his heart. Now I know the common response is, well he was never saved in the first place. But that’s not acceptable, the Bible says he was just as much as the others who were saved at the same time. And on top of that, does his response sound like an alienated depraved sinner? No, he repents immediately. Paul spoke about this constant struggle with sin in Romans chapter 7. If he’s not a good enough example what about Peter? Let’s see, he was a great Apostle of God! But he fell to the sin of prejudice. “Now when Peter had come to Antioch, I withstood him to his face, because he was to be blamed; for before certain men came from James, he would eat with the Gentiles; but when they came, he withdrew and separated himself, fearing those who were of the circumcision” Galatians 2:11-12. Why should Paul confront Peter? Because in sin, he would miss heaven. But in repentance he would be saved. James says as much in James 5:19-20, “Brethren, if anyone among you wanders from the truth, and someone turns him back, let him know that he who turns a sinner from the error of his way will save a soul from death and cover a multitude of sins.” Who is James talking to? “Brethren.” And if any “among you” “wanders from the truth” (strays or falls into sin), “among you” so he is still talking about the “Brethren.” And then he points out that if another “brother” shows the one who is in sin the way back to righteousness, that one who shows the sinning brother the way back, or confronts him with the seriousness of his situation, will save that erring brother from death, and this is spiritual death, in other words – “hell.” So here God teaches that a Christian can so sin as to loose his salvation. And we have examples in Simon and Peter of Christians who did sin, but repented and became faithful again. They “returned.” With love and appreciation for a clean debate based on the pure Word of God, Trae Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BamaTrae Posted October 6, 2007 Author Report Share Posted October 6, 2007 How many times can you be born to life? How many times can you be born unto Christ? I'll answer in just a minute! Got to go eat! Trae Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest swampfox Posted October 6, 2007 Report Share Posted October 6, 2007 Bloodman says, "Calvinism is a system of doctrine that is taught in most evangelical denominations." This is far from true. While many folks like hogdawg believe 1 point Calvinism, there are few who believe or teach all of the distinctives of the Reformed faith. I like to call the 1 pointers Calminians since they take some of Calvinism (usually the perseverance of the saints) and blend it with 4 of the 5 points of Arminianism. My former pastor used to say that "once saved, always saved" was of the devil. He taught instead the doctrine of the perseverance of the saints. The former has a tendency to lead to careless and casual lifestyles of sin; "I'm safe and secure in this bar-room because I'm already saved." The latter emphasizes the fact that those who truly belong to Him will persevere in holiness until the end. "Follow peace with all men, and holiness, without which no man shall see the Lord" Hebrews 12. Calvinism enjoyed much more popularity in America and England until the late 1800s. Men like Spurgeon, George Whitefield, Jonathan Edwards, John Owen, John Knox, to name a few, were staunch Calvinists. Since the late 1800s, it has gradually lost ground until today when it occupies a very small minority position within evangelicalism. Bloodman, turning to the issue posed, upon what do you rest your assurance of salvation? Some say that it is presumption and sin to say that we know that we are saved. These folks believe that we can never know with certainty in this life about our salvation, but we must stay faithful to certain rites and rituals in order to be finally saved. They seem to rest their confidence in the continued performance of rituals. This is great for keeping church attendance up and keeping the money flowing into the church, but is it Scriptural? I say that we must trust and rest in the finished work of Christ alone for our assurance. It is doubtful if we can ever render perfect obedience to God's impeccable standards given our weakness and propensity to take our eyes off of Jesus. We must certainly try to be perfect even as our Father in heaven is perfect. "We have not yet resisted unto blood striving against sin." Heb 12:4 So, if it is very likely that our performance of living the Christian life will fall short, should we base our assurance on our performance record rather than on the finished work that Christ performed for us on the tree? I believe that the cross of Christ actually accomplished something, namely my reconciliation. It did not simply make possible my salvation, it accomplished it. "Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new. And all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation; To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation." 2 Corinthians 5 If Christ accomplished my salvation on the cross, how then can I lose it? "All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out. For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me. And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day." John 6 "My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand. My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand." John 10. Praise Him all ye His saints for it is "Not not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us" Titus 3:5 !!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BamaTrae Posted October 6, 2007 Author Report Share Posted October 6, 2007 Swamp Fox, This is far from true. While many folks like hogdawg believe 1 point Calvinism, there are few who believe or teach all of the distinctives of the Reformed faith. I like to call the 1 pointers Calminians since they take some of Calvinism (usually the perseverance of the saints) and blend it with 4 of the 5 points of Arminianism. I stand corrected. You are correct. I should have said that "Calvinism is a system of doctrine that is taught in part in most evangelical denominations." There is a little bit just about everywhere. Bloodman, turning to the issue posed, upon what do you rest your assurance of salvation? Some say that it is presumption and sin to say that we know that we are saved. These folks believe that we can never know with certainty in this life about our salvation, but we must stay faithful to certain rites and rituals in order to be finally saved. They seem to rest their confidence in the continued performance of rituals. This is great for keeping church attendance up and keeping the money flowing into the church, but is it Scriptural? No it is not Scriptural. Consider 1 John 5:13, "These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, that you may know that you have eternal life, and that you may continue to believe in the name of the Son of God." We as Christians "have" eternal life. I affirm that it is a fact, we can live and physically die in our salvation. I have confidence in Christ's accomplished mission to save my soul. More specifically, I rest my salvation in the blood of Christ. It is His blood that washes my sin away. It is a continual cleansing, as long as I continue in the light of His righteousness. Let's read 1 John 1:5-9"This is the message which we have heard from Him and declare to you, that God is light and in Him is no darkness at all. If we say that we have fellowship with Him, and walk in darkness, we lie and do not practice the truth. But if we walk in the light as He is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus Christ His Son cleanses us from all sin. If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness." He will continue to forgive, if I continue to obey. Faith without obedience is no faith at all. It is the only way God has appointed for man to show his love to the Father in heaven, "For this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments. And His commandments are not burdensome”- 1 John5:3 and consider John 14:15 “If you love Me, keep My commandments. Does this answer your question? Trae P.S. - Did you study the Bible at a seminary? Where did you get your knowledge of church history? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest swampfox Posted October 6, 2007 Report Share Posted October 6, 2007 Bloodman says "...he made $100.00 dollars available to us all, but only Johnf got it, because he did what it took to “access” the money! He was first, he stepped toward the friend, and he took hold of the money." In my line of work I have had numerous encounters with the deceased. I have yet to meet a dead person who was remotely interested in $100 or even $1,000,000. I seriously doubt whether they could muster up enough will to even take a large bill from my hand if I made it available to them. How can a man who is dead in trespasses and sins, whose mind is alienated by wicked works, whose foolish heart and mind have been darkened, I say how can such a man even desire to come to the Lord in faith and repentance, unless the Lord draw him? "No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him" John 6 It is not like we are neutral and unbiased beings who can freely chose right and wrong. Before Christ gave us the gifts of faith and repentance we were deceived, debauched, haters of God, lovers of pleasures rather than lovers of God. We saw the light of God and rejected it, choosing to live in sin and darkness. "And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved." John 3. How then can such deceived and blinded people who have no spiritual life in them make a choice against their nature unless God is before the choice temporally and ultimately responsible for granting the choice to the sinner? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dawg Posted October 6, 2007 Report Share Posted October 6, 2007 Good points there swampfox! Not much there I can debate against if any! Answer me this though......... If Christ accomplished my salvation on the cross, how then can I lose it? "All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out. For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me. And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day." John 6 "My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand. My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand." John 10. Praise Him all ye His saints for it is "Not not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us" Titus 3:5 !!! Wouldn't that be on the same lines of "once saved, always saved?" To be honest, I really didn't know the doctrine of the Calvanist until I read Bloodmans post. I've heard of them, but never knew what they taught. That being said, I didn't get my belief from them, I read the Word of God and I let God show me what He may. If I'm a 1 pointer Cal....however you spelled it............to you.......ok I guess I can deal with that because deep down I know more importantly..................I'm God's!!! This is good stuff........let's keep it going!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BamaTrae Posted October 6, 2007 Author Report Share Posted October 6, 2007 It is not like we are neutral and unbiased beings who can freely chose right and wrong. I believe we are free to choose. Joshua 24:15, "And if it seems evil to you to serve the LORD, choose for yourselves this day whom you will serve..." We're headed for a disscussion of the Holy Spirit and how He works in our lives. Be right back... Trae Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dawg Posted October 6, 2007 Report Share Posted October 6, 2007 I see sort of a mutual agreement in what Bloodman and swampfox are saying. No man can come to the saving knowledge of Jesus Christ unless God draws him. This is true for the Word of God declares it. The question is "Will that person, after he/she has been drawn/awakened, or whatever you may call it, to this saving knowledge, accept it?" Thus giving us the freedom to choose who we will continue to serve. The Children of Israel knew the will of God through the commandments that He gave them, they still had the choice on wether or not to serve. This is where Joshua 24:14,15 come in to play. He knew the will of God because he practised what he preached in Joshua 1:8. The children of Israel knew the will of God through the commandments and Joshua was telling them to choose. Either continue in the sins in which their fathers did on the other side or turn from them and serve God. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest swampfox Posted October 6, 2007 Report Share Posted October 6, 2007 This thread and the All it Takes thread are runing together. I have copied and pasted an answer from over there to this thead. Bloodman "Excellent, so then wouldn't you say that at the point when God "quickens" a man that man is in a saved state?" Certainly. When God quickens a man, he is saved. Bloodman "The obedience of faith is man’s responding to grace by complying with divine revelation in order to be cleansed by blood. Man can talk about believing in God, loving God, trusting God, and depending on God, but until he obeys God, he is merely beating the air with words." I come very close to agreeing with you here. Yet it is God giving us the ability to respond and obey God's command to repent and believe. We cannot muster this up ourselves. "For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure" Phillipians 2:13 hogdawg "Wouldn't that be on the same lines of "once saved, always saved?"' There is a difference of emphasis between "once saved, always saved" and the doctrine of the perseverance of the saints. Evangelical churches are overflowing with millions of lost sinners who have no living relationship with Jesus, who have little interest in holiness or sanctification, yet claim to be saved because of some emotional experience at 10 years of age. They are secure in their position because they believe that "once saved, always saved." In reality, though, they were never saved. Peseverance of the saints emphasizes that those who are truly saved will persevere. If we are living like the devil, then we have no credible claim of conversion. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dawg Posted October 7, 2007 Report Share Posted October 7, 2007 What I am trying to say is that once we have been saved, like myself or you, we will always be saved. Once again I quote what you have said..."If Christ accomplished my salvation on the cross, how then can I lose it?" Once we have it.......we have it!! There's no way to lose it, so we are always saved. Do you understand what I'm trying to say?? People that go to church and as you said have an "emotional" experience think they are saved but continue living like the devil, IMO never got saved, so they can't "always" be saved. So this once saved always saved only applies to those who have been saved by the blood of Christ! I think we agree but we are wording this in different ways. The one thing I don't agree with is the fact that you said once a man is quickened he is saved, I believe a man is not saved until he calls upon the Lord, that's from the Word itself. So if a man has been "quickened" or "made alive" to me the truth of God's Word and the err of the man's ways have been revealed unto him, but he still has the choice to choose to surrender or continue living in sin. So while I believe he is in a state of mind and at a time in life in which he can be saved, this doesn't save him. Again Romans 10:9-13 declares we must confess with our mouth believe in our hearts and call upon the name of the Lord to be saved. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnf Posted October 7, 2007 Report Share Posted October 7, 2007 hogdawg "Wouldn't that be on the same lines of "once saved, always saved?"' There is a difference of emphasis between "once saved, always saved" and the doctrine of the perseverance of the saints. Evangelical churches are overflowing with millions of lost sinners who have no living relationship with Jesus, who have little interest in holiness or sanctification, yet claim to be saved because of some emotional experience at 10 years of age. They are secure in their position because they believe that "once saved, always saved." In reality, though, they were never saved. Peseverance of the saints emphasizes that those who are truly saved will persevere. If we are living like the devil, then we have no credible claim of conversion. That's what I'm talkin' about there. I think there are a bunch of people out there who may have walked an isle and may have recited a prayer and hadn't a clue what they were doing. I think when you've made that decision to believe and the Holy Spirt comes into your "heart" you are changed. If you aren't then you probibly had the same experience that you would seeing a really good movie. That's one reson I fear for many people who's spiritual experiences are based souly on emotion without intelect. Emotion comes and goes, understanding is with you always. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnf Posted October 7, 2007 Report Share Posted October 7, 2007 Hogdog, to be quickened (if I understand it right) is to be spiritually alive. If we are spiritually alive then would it not a logical conclusion that we are written into the lambs book of life. If we are in the book of life then are we not "Saved"? I remember in some computer class talking about files being cut and pasted and for an undermind spark of time the file is both existant and non-existant in both folders at the same time. I'm seeing this "Quickening" in the same way. The holy spirit speeks to many, at some point some choose to listen. Our heart are sofened and we recieve his word and believe. So when are we saved and when are we "quickened" I don't think that answer is possible to know or to understand, and I don't think it matters. Are we quickened and saved or saved and quickened, or do they both happen at the same time, or are they the same thing? My theory: Those who are quickened are also saved and it doensn't really matter which came first. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest swampfox Posted October 7, 2007 Report Share Posted October 7, 2007 hogdawg, We are describing the same thing, that those truly saved will remain saved. I just prefer the old name given to this doctrine, "the perseverence of the saints" rather than the new name, "once saved, always saved." The difference is semantic, I know. Some call it "eternal security." Whatever you call the doctrine, we agree that it is a Biblical concept. I just like the doctrine's name to emphasize perseverence since so many today are falsely secure in their "salvation" when they should be examining themselves to see if they are in the faith. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dawg Posted October 8, 2007 Report Share Posted October 8, 2007 I see your point John. To me we must be saved first, for we can not understand anything about God until we have His Spirit living in us. Well.......now that I think about it, it has to happen at the same time. I think it's all wrapped up in one. Because we can't have one without the other. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BamaTrae Posted October 8, 2007 Author Report Share Posted October 8, 2007 I'm usually quite patient, but I'm getting anxious about the last few posts. You all are speaking of these things as if they are common knowledge, but they are not. I keep waiting for a "Thus sayth the Lord" but there is none. Could you please consider including the Book, Chapter and verse for these beliefs. I refure to debate opinions, and I cannot accept the opinions of men as doctrine, (Matthew 15:9). But if the Word of God is the basis for the belief, I will continue to submit. Thank you, Trae Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BamaTrae Posted October 8, 2007 Author Report Share Posted October 8, 2007 SwampFox said: Yet it is God giving us the ability to respond and obey God's command to repent and believe. We cannot muster this up ourselves. "For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure" Phillipians 2:13 Here you post Phillippians 2:13 as a reference to the beginning of a person's walk with God, but that was written to faithful Christians, they had been saved for some time. Of course we were created in Christ for those "good works" according to Ephesians 2:10. I have not yet seen a verse that confirms the idea that one must have any preliminary action from God, apart from the Word of God, before he is able to think spiritually. In fact just the opposite is true. We are made in His image - spiritually; we are in fact spirits with bodies, not bodies with spirits, 2 Corinthians 5:1-3 "For we know that if our earthly house, this tent, is destroyed, we have a building from God, a house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens. For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed with our habitation which is from heaven, if indeed, having been clothed, we shall not be found naked." So a man is equipped by God in his very essence to think about spiritual things. To seek God and to discern truth from error. Is this not the point of Romans 1:18-21 "For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, 19 because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them. 20 For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse, 21 because, although they knew God, they did not glorify Him as God, nor were thankful, but became futile in their thoughts, and their foolish hearts were darkened." A just God would not bring His wrath on His precious creation, made in His image, if He did not instill in that man's soul an ability to discern the truth of the Creator's presence. The truth is that God still works the same way He has always worked. HIs message is made known, and men freely choose to either obey or disobey. Obviously, some men have devised cunning ways to fool themselves into thinking they are in obedience to God's will, but they are only kidding themselves by following the ideas and teachings of mere men, instead of taking God at His word, Romans 10:1-2, "Brethren, my heart’s desire and prayer to God for Israel[a] is that they may be saved. For I bear them witness that they have a zeal for God, but not according to knowledge." Trae Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnf Posted October 8, 2007 Report Share Posted October 8, 2007 I'm usually quite patient, but I'm getting anxious about the last few posts. You all are speaking of these things as if they are common knowledge, but they are not. I keep waiting for a "Thus sayth the Lord" but there is none. Could you please consider including the Book, Chapter and verse for these beliefs. I refure to debate opinions, and I cannot accept the opinions of men as doctrine, (Matthew 15:9). But if the Word of God is the basis for the belief, I will continue to submit. Thank you, Trae These things are probibly closer to what I would call "biblical theory". At the end of the day it doesn't matter who is right or wrong, it's just fodder for debate. Debate for the fun of debate. This little debate between hogdog and myself is much like one of the debates in the Spanish inquisition on whether or not Jesus owned the clothes that he wore. People were burned at the stake over that. Can you believe that? Crazy eh. This little thing is biblicaly based, but at the end of the day it doesn't really matter who is right. Sort of like the whole baptism, repentance, Lords supper thing. I've done them all and continue to walk in the God's will so then even if turkeyfife is right, I'm still ok? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BamaTrae Posted October 8, 2007 Author Report Share Posted October 8, 2007 Bloodman "Excellent, so then wouldn't you say that at the point when God "quickens" a man that man is in a saved state?" Certainly. When God quickens a man, he is saved. Great please post Book, chapter, and verse telling us when that happens, exactly. Trae Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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