Calvinism

[Dawg]

Right John, I'm not trying to prove any body wrong or myself right. Just tossing around different opinions here.

[BamaTrae]

Johnf said:

These things are probibly closer to what I would call "biblical theory". At the end of the day it doesn't matter who is right or wrong, it's just fodder for debate. Debate for the fun of debate.

HogDawg said:

Right John, I'm not trying to prove any body wrong or myself right. Just tossing around different opinions here.

I guess I was getting a bit too serious. I base every "biblical" thought on the actual Bible. I'm not very good at theory, I am a hard evidence guy. I like the old saying, "Say Bible things in Bible ways."

Your forum friend,

Trae

[BamaTrae]

Swamp Fox said:

There is a difference of emphasis between "once saved, always saved" and the doctrine of the perseverance of the saints. Evangelical churches are overflowing with millions of lost sinners who have no living relationship with Jesus, who have little interest in holiness or sanctification, yet claim to be saved because of some emotional experience at 10 years of age. They are secure in their position because they believe that "once saved, always saved." In reality, though, they were never saved. Peseverance of the saints emphasizes that those who are truly saved will persevere. If we are living like the devil, then we have no credible claim of conversion.

Even if it's "once saved always saved" or "perserverance of the saints" you still have the same outcome. There is too much Biblical evidence that denys this aspect of Calvinism. The fact that the Bible exhorts us to faithfulness proves that one can loose his salvation. Otherwise why would God tell us to... "be steadfast immovable" 1 Cor 15:58, and "we will reap if we do not grow weary: Gal 6:9, What if we do grow weary? Why give this command at all??? "be faithful unto death and I will give crown of life" in Rev 2:10, and we cannot leave this disscussion without the obvious statement in 2 Peter 1:8-11, "For if these things are yours and abound, you will be neither barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. For he who lacks these things is shortsighted, even to blindness, and has forgotten that he was cleansed from his old sins. Therefore, brethren, be even more diligent to make your call and election sure, for if you do these things you will never stumble; for so an entrance will be supplied to you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ."

Thanks for reading,

Trae

[Dawg]

While I appreciate the fact that you bring scripture into this "debate", they do not prove your point. The fact is that we can grow weary, we can stumble, but does that mean God throws us back? Paul complained to God, and I'm sorry I don't have my Bible with me for I am at work:rolleyes:, and God told Paul that His grace was sufficient enough. We will reap if we do not grow weary..........to me that is simply saying exactly what it is saying. Let me explain myself. If a farmer gets tired of pickin' corn and quits, he doesn't reap as much as he could have if he was to continue on, right? Does this make him any less of a farmer? His garden is still there, he still has his tractors, and is still a farmer. He grew weary and didn't reap all that he could. So the child of God is the same. We can grow weary and not reap like we would if we weren't weary.

"Be ye steadfast immovable".....why did the apostle say this? For the same truths that he told us to not grow weary. We know what steadfast means and we know what immovable means, but they both have absolutely nothing to do with our salvation.

This is my belief, as I said, I am not trying to prove you wrong or myself right, we'll just have to agree to disagree on this issue. I quote the words of swampfox "If Christ accomplished my salvation on the cross, how then can I lose it? "

[johnf]

Good points Hogdawg. Hey bloodman if you want to get into a really fun one get out the book of Daniel and Revilations and start cross referencing. That can get interesting.

[BamaTrae]

but does that mean God throws us back?

I never said that God throws us back. Nothing can change His love for us, Romans 8, but we certainly do change our love for Him.

1 Peter 2:21-25 "For to this you were called, because Christ also suffered for us, leaving us an example, that you should follow His steps:

22 “ Who committed no sin,

Nor was deceit found in His mouth”;

23 who, when He was reviled, did not revile in return; when He suffered, He did not threaten, but committed Himself to Him who judges righteously; 24 who Himself bore our sins in His own body on the tree, that we, having died to sins, might live for righteousness—by whose stripes you were healed. 25 For you were like sheep going astray, but have now returned to the Shepherd and Overseer of your souls.

Trae

[Dawg]

You've got to remember that this was a "new" doctrine that was being preached to these folks. Some of them still hadn't understood fully the things that the apostles were preaching. Some were going back to Judaism, as Peter was in the book of Acts.

I know nothing can seperate us from the love of God, the bible declares that. My question to you is this, if our salvation comes from God and He is the One who holds our very fate in His hands, how can we lose our salvation? If we can lose it that means that God would have to throw away the very thing He came to this earth to do, thus He would have to throw us back into a world that He came to save.

Once again I don't see your point in these verses that you have used.

[Guest swampfox]

Bloodman says, "I have not yet seen a verse that confirms the idea that one must have any preliminary action from God, apart from the Word of God, before he is able to think spiritually. In fact just the opposite is true."

Lets take this one step at a time.

1) All men are by nature children of wrath and are cursed by God because of sin.

But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die. Gen 2

And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins; Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience: Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others. Eph 2

Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned...Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life. Romans 5

As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one: There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God. They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one. Romans 3

Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me. Psalm 51:5

2) Apart from God changing our hearts and giving us the gifts of repentance and faith, we are doomed to suffer in **** for our sins.

No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day. John 6:44

When they heard these things, they held their peace, and glorified God, saying, Then hath God also to the Gentiles granted repentance unto life. Acts 11:18

Lest there be any fornicator, or profane person, as Esau, who for one morsel of meat sold his birthright. For ye know how that afterward, when he would have inherited the blessing, he was rejected: for he found no place of repentance, though he sought it carefully with tears. Hebrews 12

For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord. Romans 6

For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Eph 2

In meekness instructing those that oppose themselves; if God peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth; And that they may recover themselves out of the snare of the devil, who are taken captive by him at his will. 2 Tim 2

And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses Colossians 2:13

3) We cannot chose to obey God because it would be against our nature to do so.

Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin. If the Son therefore shall make you free, ye shall be free indeed. John 8

Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit. A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit. Matthew 7

He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil. Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God. In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God 1 John 3

We are free to choose, but we will always make choices according to our nature, our natural bias. Since we are sinners born with a corrupt nature, we will always choose darkness rather than light in our natural condition.

He came unto his own, and his own received him not. But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name John 1

You seem to make an allowance for the word of God acting in the heart of man prior to conversion. But remember, "the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life." 2 Corinthians 3:6. It is the Spirit of God that must work in the heart of man to subdue his rebellious heart and grant him the gifts of faith and repentance. The letter alone, apart from the Spirit, will not bring life.

[wtnhunt]

I know nothing can seperate us from the love of God, the bible declares that. My question to you is this, if our salvation comes from God and He is the One who holds our very fate in His hands, how can we lose our salvation? If we can lose it that means that God would have to throw away the very thing He came to this earth to do, thus He would have to throw us back into a world that He came to save.

He came to save those who would chose to have faith in Him. The choice is there for anyone to make to accept Christ and believe in Him. Unfortunately the choice or freewill of man to fall from faith or give in to temptation is also there and I am afraid it might be kind of naive to think if you have once accepted Christ found a relationship with the Lord and consider yourself saved and think this "once saved always saved" mentality, unfortunately you might be misleading only yourself.

Not to pick on any certain religion, but how many bishops and other people in certain churches have gotten involved in pretty horrific crimes against children that have made it all over the news? Do we think that those people were not once saved? Have they not fallen astray? So since they were once saved, are those folks still also always saved?

[johnf]

Not to pick on any certain religion, but how many bishops and other people in certain churches have gotten involved in pretty horrific crimes against children that have made it all over the news? Do we think that those people were not once saved? Have they not fallen astray? So since they were once saved, are those folks still also always saved?

No, I don't think they were ever saved. I think they were probably done the same as children and felt that a life in the church would cleanse them of their boyhood sins. I would guess that they would have done the same thing outside the church, but they could get a warm fuzzy feeling that they were making the world a better place by "working for God", or working off their sins. I think they are steaming piles of excrement that will burn for eternity. I've talked scripture with several priests and have yet to find one that was very well versed on the bible honestly. They know the Catholic doctrine and can quote what they are supposed to teach, but I've yet to meet one that could actually explain the bible. Some of them don't even belive it.

No I don't think they were ever saved.

[Dawg]

He came to save those who would chose to have faith in Him. The choice is there for anyone to make to accept Christ and believe in Him. Unfortunately the choice or freewill of man to fall from faith or give in to temptation is also there and I am afraid it might be kind of naive to think if you have once accepted Christ found a relationship with the Lord and consider yourself saved and think this "once saved always saved" mentality, unfortunately you might be misleading only yourself.

Call me naive and mislead if you wish. I know beyond a shadow of a doubt that Christ saved me and saved me forever and there is nothing I can do to lose that. I said in another post that a TRUE child of God, if they were to stray away, wouldn't do it very long because of the chastisement of God. So those who can go on and on without regret and continue in sin and feel no chastisement..........well the Word of God says they are "*******" children that are fatherless. Meaning they NEVER were saved!!!

[wtnhunt]

Not calling anyone anything, not my place, but the idea or mentality may be just that and take my comment for what you want. Just saying that in order to be true, you have to accept, believe, and continue to keep faith, that is all.

The thread parallel to this one Jeramie very well put into words my thoughts, will copy that here

Quote:

We will always be his children but if we dont walk with God we have chosen the path to he11. Thats what everyone seems to be missing in what ive typed. WE created sin, we separate ourselves, and due to free will God allows us to do so, his children or not! He is a very loving and forgiving God but the separation is our choice, even once you've been saved! And helping a child in Texas without his or her knowledge isn't feasible. How many children are out there a that run away and live on the streets and are never found? Granted their parents still love them as our Father loves us but that falls under grace and mercy. Free will still remains. God will take you in his arms (just as the parable above, one of my favorites btw) but if you walk away from him and become carnal.... You've put the flesh over God.

Again, it isn't God. God didn't eat of the fruit of truth and knowledge and fall in the Garden. God doesnt wish for ANY of his children to perish. The choice to be bound with Satan for all eternity is ours. God didnt make that decision.

God Created the perfect world for man and all he asked was a relationship. Man spat it back in his face. From that day on man has had a price to pay. Out of God's endless love he took a very big part of himself and hung Jesus on a Cross. That redeemed those that believe in our Savior.

However, again... We made the decision to stray from God, once again doing as Adam and Eve did. I do understand God's endless love. Wrap your brain around this, God loves us as much as he loves Jesus. Thats huge. I fully understand the love of our Lord God but the part no one seems to be grasping is that God isnt sending souls to damnation. We chose that path! WE, WE, WE chose that path.

God created man with free will. It is absolutely your decision to burn or spend eternity in Glory. God is not making that decision! If it were based on God's Love none would perish. None, meaning even those that mock God. You cant believe that God would burn someone who has never believed but save those that once believed and strayed. The bible talks about how much worse it is for a Saint to become a sinner (which by the way is proof that you can be truly saved and slip out in a big, big way. Look at Peter. He was going back to fishing because of the way he failed the Lord but the Lord wasnt finished with him).

Look, I understand how much our Father God loves us. It is not his desire for any to perish but he Installed free will into every living man. Even though it hurts God to unknown extents, we put our selves in eternal damnation. Because of the free will promise to man, God will do nothing.....

Consider free will before you reply everyone. That is the one important basis everyone seems to be overlooking

That is pretty well how I see things Jeramie. Well said btw. I for one am not overlooking free will, and do not believe as some do that God's people are pre-determined or pre chosen as some seem to believe(calvinism). Anyone can open their hearts and let God's love enter and accept Christ as their saviour, it is in keeping that relationship with Him open that leads to the path of salvation and keeps us from falling away.

[Dawg]

We didn't create sin. Read Genesis, Satan is the ringleader of sin, he brought it into this world. I've read all posts and still stand by my belief. I fully understand free will. It appears that you are overlooking my point of God's chastisement, read Hebrews 12, He WILL chasten His children IF they stray, and I believe that if that person is truly saved, they WILL return and not continue in sin. The story about Peter going back fishing has nothing to do with our salvation or his.

[wtnhunt]

We didn't create sin.

That is true in a way, depending on how you look at it I guess. Sure satan created the temptation that led to the initial sin, but man did in fact give into that temptation and fall into sin when he was warned. So in a sense looking at this from the other side of the argument, in a world that was perfect, man giving in did play a part in sin entering the world that had before been without sin. Temptation from satan without the act of man following through was not sin, it was not until man fell for that temptation that sin entered our world. Guess how each person chooses to view or interpret that is up to their own personal opinion and views. Not saying which is wrong or right and I can see your point and reason for what you are saying, I personally see it though as that man did essentially bring sin into this world(created) by falling into temptation.

[Guest swampfox]

"Consider free will before you reply everyone. That is the one important basis everyone seems to be overlooking"

I do not think that I am overlooking free will. Calvinists believe that man has a free will (also called free moral agency). It's just that I believe that the reformed understanding of free will is more Biblical. Fife will not like it much if I quote from the Westminster Confession's Shorter Catechism. I can hear him saying, "those stinking denominationalists are quoting extra-biblical sources again." Nonetheless, question 13 of the shorter catechism says,

Q.13. Did our first parents continue in the estate wherein they were created?

Answer- Our first parents, being left to the freedom of their own will, fell from the estate wherein they were created, by sinning against God.

For more on this topic you can read a Spurgeon sermon entitle Free Will - A Slave: http://www.spurgeon.org/sermons/0052.htm

Or, if you would rather listen online or download to it to an MP3 player go here: http://www.sermonaudio.com/sermoninfo.asp?SID=8160293628