once saved always saved

[Guest Turkey Fife]

asdf

Of course not. Was there anyone here that was saying otherwise ?Yes, JohnF You confuse me Fife. You assume everyone is lost, only because they are not of your church.My Church? You put words in peoples mouths that they didn't say Please C&P those words it should be easy to do, and you presume, way too much What do you mean?.

[buckee]

Of course not. Was there anyone here that was saying otherwise ?Yes, JohnF You confuse me Fife. You assume everyone is lost, only because they are not of your church.My Church? You put words in peoples mouths that they didn't say Please C&P those words it should be easy to do, and you presume, way too much What do you mean?.

Come on now Fife. You don't want to be accused of playing little mind games now, do ya...LOL:D

For an old guy, you sure don't have a way with your own words, but you sure can quote scripture well.

Come-on now, lets get real, OK.

You know very well what I meant by "your church", so please don't play games.

You know very well, that you presume everyone here, is not really saved at all, unless they belong to the same "Titled" church as you attend, or are a part of ...so please don't play mind games, OK.

You've already told John and I that we aren't saved. , and you've failed to explain why you think that way or given any proof..

[Guest Turkey Fife]

asdf

Buckee,

I have already been kicked off one Hunting Site:mad:

I don't want to be kicked off this one:o

Can anyone be saved without the Blood of Christ?

Can anyone be saved outside Christ's Church?

Can anyone be saved without the Gospel of Christ?

Can anyone be saved with out Believing in Christ?

Can anyone be saved without Repenting?

Can anyone be saved without Confessing that Christ is the Son of God?

Can anyone be saved without Worshiping God Thru His Son Jesus Christ?

Can anyone be saved and not Worship as Christ has said to do?

Can anyone be saved and not be Baptized for the Forgiveness of their Sins?

Can anyone be Saved in Sin?

Can anyone be saved without God's Grace?

[johnf]

I'm not Buckee, but I'll field these.

I have already been kicked off one Hunting Site:mad: I wander why(probably for being a pompous jerk).

I don't want to be kicked off this one:o Then stop being a pompous jerk.

Can anyone be saved without the Blood of Christ? No

Can anyone be saved outside Christ's Church? If you are saved you are part of the body of Christ thus "in the church". By the way Christ was baptised and if you assume that he was "baptised into His own church", then He must be a Baptist. After all he was baptised by John the baptist, not "John the Church of Christ".

Can anyone be saved without the Gospel of Christ? Yes they must believe in Christ. The child who's mother believed Christ was healed and she wasn't even there. Faith saved her.

Can anyone be saved with out Believing in Christ? No

Can anyone be saved without Repenting? Yes, how can true repentance come to a dead soul. You are dead in Christ until you are saved. Repentance would come only after you understand sin. Therefore you must repent after salvation.

Can anyone be saved without Confessing that Christ is the Son of God? See John 3:16,Eph 2:8-9 The state of salvation is believing that Christ was the Son of God and died for your sins. Confessing that to God results in Salvation whether walking an isle or kneeling in a broom closet.

Can anyone be saved without Worshiping God through His Son Jesus Christ? See John 3:16, Eph 2:8-9 How could one not worship God after the salvation experience?

Can anyone be saved and not Worship as Christ has said to do? See John 3:16, Eph 2:8-9 Same as last answer.

Can anyone be saved and not be Baptized for the Forgiveness of their Sins? See John 3:16, Eph 2:8-9 Yes, Baptism is something we do for obedience after salvation. Why would someone dead in Christ want to be baptised? If they are dead in Christ then there would be no desire to do his will.

Can anyone be Saved in Sin? There is not one worthy, no Not one. That's why we have God's grace, because we are always in a state of sin. Including you with your pride and arrogance, just like the Pharisees.

Can anyone be saved without God's Grace? No, do you understand what grace is?

There, I gave you strait answers, could you afford me the same courtesy? It would be the "Christ-like" thing to do.

[johnf]

Of course not. Was there anyone here that was saying otherwise ?Yes, JohnF You confuse me Fife. You assume everyone is lost, only because they are not of your church.My Church? You put words in peoples mouths that they didn't say Please C&P those words it should be easy to do, and you presume, way too much What do you mean?.

By the way, do you know there is not a single redeeming quality to that post. I think my IQ dropped just trying to make some sence of it.

[buckee]

#1 - Can anyone be saved without the Blood of Christ?

No

#2 - Can anyone be saved outside Christ's Church?

No. Those who believe are all members of one body

#3 - Can anyone be saved without the Gospel of Christ?

I can't see how anyone can be saved without hearing the gospel first. Faith comes by hearing, and hearing from the word of God, especially these days.

Back when Jesus walked the earth, their were many who believed in him, without ever hearing the complete gospel, because he hadn't taken the sins of the world upon himself, and shed his blood for us, and rose from the dead yet.

#4 - Can anyone be saved with out Believing in Christ?

No

#5 - Can anyone be saved without Repenting?

No

One has to be convicted or convinced first, that they are indeed a sinner in need of salvation, otherwise, why would they want to be saved, and what from.

repent :

- feel remorse for; feel sorry for; be contrite about, regret or self-reproach

- To feel such regret for past conduct as to change one's mind regarding it

To kneel before the throne of Grace, at the foot of the cross, requires faith, and a conviction of one's own unworthiness of God's amazing grace.

Turning from sin can however be a long process, in which you are still covered by his grace, and guided by the Holy Spirit.

Being saved by his Grace, does not require perfection, but it does require conviction (faith). With Gods help however, we will persevere.

#6 - Can anyone be saved without Confessing that Christ is the Son of God?

No

#7 - Can anyone be saved without Worshiping God Thru His Son Jesus Christ?

No, because we were all separated from God through the first Adam's sin, but have now been reconciled to God through the last Adam, Jesus Christ.

Jesus is the Bridge between man and God. Jesus was God in man, when he walked the earth, so to worship God, without going through Jesus is impossible.

#8 - Can anyone be saved and not Worship as Christ has said to do?

No, Jesus said to worship in spirit, and in truth

#9 - Can anyone be saved and not be Baptized for the Forgiveness of their Sins?

Depends which Baptism you're talking about here. Water baptism, the baptism of the Holy Spirit, and having your sins washed away by the Blood of the lamb.

#10 - Can anyone be Saved in Sin?

did you mean "from the penalty of sin" (which is death)?

Trick question ? We have all sinned, and as long as we live in this human flesh, we will be tempted by sin.

Yes and No see #5

#11 - Can anyone be saved without God's Grace?

Absolutely not

...............................................

Guess I failed your test..eh

[Missilelock]

A can of worms

Im not sure if I opened a good lively Chist centered discussion here or a can of worms???One thing I am sure of is while we Christians can neither understand everything that is of God, nor will we probably agree on everything spiritual, we must agree on one thing & that is how we are saved. i am in ABSOLUTE & TOTAL AGREEMENT with Buckee & John f in their writings there. Turkey Fife, I quite frankly dont understand half of the points you are trying to make & support.

My intent in starting this thread was more to get a bit of feeling for how you folks believed on the always saved part of the equation. I have allready pointed out that while some of you dont believe you can turn away from God & follow the ways of the flesh & walk away from your salvation , I not only believe you can, but I believe that for a number of years, I did.

I think its important to point out to non- Christians, & new Christians reading this forum, that we dont have to be in total agreement in every aspect of our faith to be BROTHERS IN CHRIST!!! As I grow in years & in faith I find that sometimes my long held beliefs are flawed. there may come a day that I will be convicted by the spirit that my thinking on -" once saved always saved " is wrong( though I doubt it).

Buckee , you were a little confusing on your views of Baptism to someopne new in the faith. how about a little clarification. Lane

[wtnhunt]

Buckee , you were a little confusing on your views of Baptism to someopne new in the faith. how about a little clarification.

That is a question of topic that has arisen in here in the past. I had some question on that before too, and kind of still do. I mean if someone was baptized before they were really actually saved, or before they really understood what it meant to be saved, then do they need to be baptized again when they are found or truly saved? Does a formal baptism in front of a congregation even have to be performed at all, can a person not accept Christ with witnesses and be saved?

This kind of hits home right now, with a family member who has recently become a member of a church, and has gone through the act of being baptized in front of a large congregation, however this person has not truly changed and is still much the same as they were before they claimed to have become saved. Dont want to be judgemental at all, but cannot help but think under circumstances as such a person who goes through this type of actions whether it be for pressure from a church or from feeling like they need to do it to fit in, if it is not because they truly have found faith in their heart, then it is basically an empty symbolic gesture that only gives that person a false impression of where they are? Afraid if person thinks or acts as if they are found when they are not, they may be fooling only themselves, so where then does that leave them and how exactly does baptismal fit in? Does a person under those circumstances need to be immersed in water again once they find true faith IF they do, or can they chose to accept Christ and be found without the formal display since their sins were once washed away even though they may not have been a true believer at that point in time? Guess my hopes and prayers are that this person will find true faith, with being surrounded by others that have faith and come to realize it is not about acting.

[buckee]

I think you just did a good job of explaining why Water Baptism, by itself, saves no one, William .

Baptism is an act of obedience to the person who has already, been convicted of his/her sins, knelt before the Lord, repented, are willing to turn from sin, and have tasted God's wonderful grace and Holy Spirit comfort them.

I believe you are saved by Grace, before you are baptized, but I do believe baptism is important.

I was saved by the blood of Jesus Christ (which covers my sins), and felt the Presents of the Holy Spirit in my life, way before I was water baptized.

Does that mean, I wasn't really saved, until I was baptized ? ...of course not.

According to Fife, I am not saved at all. , but his comments don't bother me, because I know whom I have believed in, and am persuaded, that he is able to keep me, until that day

[johnf]

That is a question of topic that has arisen in here in the past. I had some question on that before too, and kind of still do. I mean if someone was baptized before they were really actually saved, or before they really understood what it meant to be saved, then do they need to be baptized again when they are found or truly saved? Does a formal baptism in front of a congregation even have to be performed at all, can a person not accept Christ with witnesses and be saved?

This kind of hits home right now, with a family member who has recently become a member of a church, and has gone through the act of being baptized in front of a large congregation, however this person has not truly changed and is still much the same as they were before they claimed to have become saved. Dont want to be judgemental at all, but cannot help but think under circumstances as such a person who goes through this type of actions whether it be for pressure from a church or from feeling like they need to do it to fit in, if it is not because they truly have found faith in their heart, then it is basically an empty symbolic gesture that only gives that person a false impression of where they are? Afraid if person thinks or acts as if they are found when they are not, they may be fooling only themselves, so where then does that leave them and how exactly does baptismal fit in? Does a person under those circumstances need to be immersed in water again once they find true faith IF they do, or can they chose to accept Christ and be found without the formal display since their sins were once washed away even though they may not have been a true believer at that point in time? Guess my hopes and prayers are that this person will find true faith, with being surrounded by others that have faith and come to realize it is not about acting.

How many times did you take a bath or go swimming before you were saved (shower if you're Methodist;))? The water does nothing for you if you are baptised before you are saved. There is no point to it. I think anyone who comes to Christ should be baptised according to the scriptures, but only after they are "Saved". Any immersion before salvation only makes you wet IMO. Immersion after salvation makes you obediant.

I am convinced that some people go to church and and claim Christ not to make them feel better, but to make other folks feel better about them. In one town that I lived in every year the month before elections, every councilman and school board member were the most attentive and visible people in church. Win or lost, within two weeks post election you didn't see them again. I think maybe the person you are talking about is trying to look good.

[Missilelock]

baptized vs dedicated

Ha Ha John on the electd officials - we have a US snator here in my little town that attends church before elections too.

I gotta agree that baptism has absolutely nothing to do with being saved or in getting to heaven. A lot of faiths believe in the baptism of infants.- I beleive when an infant is batized it should only be called a dedication. This act should be the parents vowing to bring up the child in the ways of the Lord.

Baptism is an act of obedience to the Lord. We like to call it an outward sign of an inward change. We re called to" Repent & be Baptized". To me this means change directions from the path we were following which leads to **** & follow Christ. - Be baptized means to undergo a ritual that states to the public that we have made the change.

I often think of the scripture where Jesus tells us if we will acknowledge him here on earth, that he will acknowledge us before the Father in heaven. I think the sacrement of baptism is a good start to a new life acknowledging God as our master.

[Guest Turkey Fife]

asdf

Acts:8

[3] And as he journeyed, he came near Damascus: and suddenly there shined round about him a light from heaven:

[4] And he fell to the earth, and heard a voice saying unto him, Saul, Saul, why persecutest thou me?

[5] And he said, Who art thou, Lord? And the Lord said, I am Jesus whom thou persecutest: it is hard for thee to kick against the pricks.

[6] And he trembling and astonished said, Lord, what wilt thou have me to do? And the Lord said unto him, Arise, and go into the city, and it shall be told thee what thou must do.

[7] And the men which journeyed with him stood speechless, hearing a voice, but seeing no man.

[8] And Saul arose from the earth; and when his eyes were opened, he saw no man: but they led him by the hand, and brought him into Damascus.

[9] And he was three days without sight, and neither did eat nor drink.

[10] And there was a certain disciple at Damascus, named Ananias; and to him said the Lord in a vision, Ananias. And he said, Behold, I am here, Lord.

[11] And the Lord said unto him, Arise, and go into the street which is called Straight, and inquire in the house of Judas for one called Saul, of Tarsus: for, behold, he prayeth,

[12] And hath seen in a vision a man named Ananias coming in, and putting his hand on him, that he might receive his sight.

[13] Then Ananias answered, Lord, I have heard by many of this man, how much evil he hath done to thy saints at Jerusalem:

[14] And here he hath authority from the chief priests to bind all that call on thy name.

[15] But the Lord said unto him, Go thy way: for he is a chosen vessel unto me, to bear my name before the Gentiles, and kings, and the children of Israel:

[16] For I will shew him how great things he must suffer for my name's sake.

[17] And Ananias went his way, and entered into the house; and putting his hands on him said, Brother Saul, the Lord, even Jesus, that appeared unto thee in the way as thou camest, hath sent me, that thou mightest receive thy sight, and be filled with the Holy Ghost.

[18] And immediately there fell from his eyes as it had been scales: and he received sight forthwith, and arose, and was baptized.

[19] And when he had received meat, he was strengthened. Then was Saul certain days with the disciples which were at Damascus.

[20] And straightway he preached Christ in the synagogues, that he is the Son of God.

[21] But all that heard him were amazed, and said; Is not this he that destroyed them which called on this name in Jerusalem, and came hither for that intent, that he might bring them bound unto the chief priests?

Acts: 22

[6] And it came to pass, that, as I made my journey, and was come nigh unto Damascus about noon, suddenly there shone from heaven a great light round about me.

[7] And I fell unto the ground, and heard a voice saying unto me, Saul, Saul, why persecutest thou me?

[8] And I answered, Who art thou, Lord? And he said unto me, I am Jesus of Nazareth, whom thou persecutest.

[9] And they that were with me saw indeed the light, and were afraid; but they heard not the voice of him that spake to me.

[10] And I said, What shall I do, Lord? And the Lord said unto me, Arise, and go into Damascus; and there it shall be told thee of all things which are appointed for thee to do.

[11] And when I could not see for the glory of that light, being led by the hand of them that were with me, I came into Damascus.

[12] And one Ananias, a devout man according to the law, having a good report of all the Jews which dwelt there,

[13] Came unto me, and stood, and said unto me, Brother Saul, receive thy sight. And the same hour I looked up upon him.

[14] And he said, The God of our fathers hath chosen thee, that thou shouldest know his will, and see that Just One, and shouldest hear the voice of his mouth.

[15] For thou shalt be his witness unto all men of what thou hast seen and heard.

[16] And now why tarriest thou? arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord.

[Dawg]

Is it me or is this tread going in circles?? The point is, and it has been stated already by Missilelock, we will not agree upon everything.

Good points John and Buckee, good points.

[buckee]

Acts: 8 and Acts: 22 are two separate accounts of the same event

Acts 1:5

"for John baptized with water, but you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit not many days from now."

Acts:8

[17] And Ananias went his way, and entered into the house; and putting his hands on him said, Brother Saul, the Lord, even Jesus, that appeared unto thee in the way as thou camest, hath sent me, that thou mightest receive thy sight, and be filled with the Holy Ghost.

[18] And immediately there fell from his eyes as it had been scales: and he received sight forthwith, and arose, and was baptized.

Acts: 22

[16] And now why tarriest thou? arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord.

When we read Acts 1:5, we see that there is indeed a different baptism, that took place after Jesus death and resurection, where no water was used.

In Acts:8-17,18 it says (17) "hath sent me, that thou mightest receive thy sight, and be filled with the Holy Ghost."

(18) "and he received sight forthwith, and arose, and was baptized"

No mention here of water baptism, just the baptizm of the Holy Ghost.

Now when you look at Acts 22-16 account of the event, it becomes a little clearer.

(16)" And now why tarriest thou? arise"

In other words, "What are you waiting for, stand up,

"and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord."

Repent in the name of the Lord Jesus, so your sins may be washed away, and you receive the baptism of the Holy Ghost. (please refer back to Acts 1:5)

It is Gods grace, through Jesus shed blood, that saves us, not the ritual of water baptism.

[buckee]

Here is even more clarification

Acts 1: 1-5

1 In my former book, Theophilus, I wrote about all that Jesus began to do and to teach 2 until the day he was taken up to heaven, after giving instructions through the Holy Spirit to the apostles he had chosen. 3 After his suffering, he showed himself to these men and gave many convincing proofs that he was alive. He appeared to them over a period of forty days and spoke about the kingdom of God. 4 On one occasion, while he was eating with them, he gave them this command: "Do not leave Jerusalem, but wait for the gift my Father promised, which you have heard me speak about. 5 For John baptized with[a] water, but in a few days you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit."

Here we see how Jesus prepared his disciples to look forward to the new baptism after his death and resurrection, which would be performed by the Holy Spirit, without water.

The water in Johns baptism represented Jesus blood, that at that time was not yet spilled for our transgressions. Neither did anyone know, that it would be spilled at that time.

The baptism of the Holy Spirit, was the Baptism of repentance and our faith in the grace in Jesus shed blood.

Acts 11:15 - 18

15 "As I began to speak, the Holy Spirit came on them as he had come on us at the beginning. 16 Then I remembered what the Lord had said: 'John baptized with[a]water, but you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit.' 17 So if God gave them the same gift as he gave us, who believed in the Lord Jesus Christ, who was I to think that I could oppose God?"

18When they heard this, they had no further objections and praised God, saying, "So then, God has granted even the Gentiles repentance unto life."

"And I remembered the word of the Lord, how He used to say, 'John baptized with water, but you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit.'

"So if God gave them the same gift as he gave us, who believed in the Lord Jesus Christ, who was I to think that I could oppose God?"

And here we see how even the disciple of Jesus was humbled by this "NEW" baptism.

[CrAzYCoYoTe]

I happen yo know a guy that lives a lifestyle that is far better than most "christians" I know. But he is agnostic. Many people has talked to him about becoming a christian but I went the extra mil and tried just a little harder. But a stubborn a guy that he is he just decided to argue and everything and in reference to Turkey Fife, thats my response.

I know alot of great people but its just the fact that they will not accept Jesus into thier hearts.

[johnf]

Thats some good stuff there buckee.

[unioncountyslayer]

Short and simple is my only approach to answering the question at hand. Do I believe in once saved, always saved: Yes

I also have a strong belief that if you are truly saved, you will bare fruit of your conversion. If there is no fruit, than maybe you never really committed your life to Christ. I do believe christians can stray, but that the Lord will always bring them back to Him if there conversion was heart-felt and meaningful.

[Guest swampfox]

Probably most of those here disagree with Fife regarding his belief in baptismal regeneration. So do I. Yet several of you agree with Fife that man has the ability to freely choose between following Jesus and rejecting Him.

If salvation has been made possible to all men, as Arminians teach, and it is simply up to man to freely choose Christ, then salvation basically is accomplished (at least in part) by man. Arminians often say things like: God has done 99% and man now has to do the final 1%. God has built a broad bridge to within 12 inches of the other side and now it is man's job to walk across the narrow gap that remains. God has extended a 100 dollar bill and now man must simply reach out and take it. All of these analogies are put forth by Arminians to explain their view of salvation. Yet all these analogies reek of works. Man's effort has nothing to do with salvation. "Salvation is of the Lord." Jonah 2:9

If man's work has something to do with salvation, then why not identify the start of that salvation with water baptism as do the Romanists and "Church of Christ" folks? If you believe that man basically saves himself by believing, or repenting, or by water baptism, then why argue about such trifles as verses like

"for by grace are ye saved through faith, and that not of yourselves" Eph 2 and "not by works of righteousness which we have done but according to his mercy he saved us" Titus 2

Man is dead in trespasses and sins. He cannot of himself choose God. He cannot seek after God. He cannot work to earn God's favor, because he is dead, corrupt, and guilty, as of yet having no access to God due to a great separation caused by sin. Even if a sinner of himself could pray a prayer of repentance to God, God could not hear such a prayer. Psalm 66:18

God must make us willing to repent and believe. When we repent, believe, and obey God's commandments we have nothing about which to boast. These are gifts that God gives to ungodly, undeserving sinners. It is God who should get all the glory when a sinner repents. Free willers like Fife love to boast about how they have been able to repent, to believe, and submit to baptism in and of themselves as if he was smarter, or holier, or more worthy of salvation than anyone else. Yet the scripture asks an important question:

"For who maketh thee to differ from another? and what hast thou that thou didst not receive? now if thou didst receive it, why dost thou glory, as if thou hadst not received it?

The only ground from which the error of baptismal regeneration can be effectively refuted is the God-centered theology of the reformed faith.

[Missilelock]

Psalm 66:18

Swamp fox: I agree with most everything you say , but I gotta say that I sure dont read Psalm 66:18 the same way you do, & I dont think it supports your argument that man cannot seek God while still in sin.

I do believe that God first Loved me, chose me & seeked me, The same as every person on this earth. However I do believe God encourages us to seek him & he will be found.( whether we are living in sin or saved) Maybe Im just not understanding you correctly.

As for that 18th verse, I dont read anything into it except that God is wanting to hear the Prayers f a righteous man, & not paying much attn to a man who is hanging tight to his sin.

[Guest swampfox]

clarification

I should have offered more explanation in regard to Psalm 66. On the face of it it does sound ridiculous that God would not hear a sinner's prayer of repentance. What I mean is that when a sinner prays a prayer of repentance, God is granting that repentance as a gift to the undeserving sinner. Without God first changing the sinner's heart, God could not so much as hear the prayer of the sinner due to the separation between holy God and sinful man. For God to hear our prayers, he must have awakened us and already be at work in us to bridge that separation. We cannot bridge the gulf apart from grace.

Barne's commentary on this verse reads:

"If I regard iniquity in my heart literally, “If I have seen iniquity in my heart.” That is, If I have indulged in a purpose of iniquity; if I have had a wicked end in view; if I have not been willing to forsake all sin; if I have cherished a purpose of pollution or wrong. The meaning is not literally, If I have “seen” any iniquity in my heart — for no one can look into his own heart, and not see that it is defiled by sin; but, If I have cherished it in my soul; if I have gloated over past sins; if I am purposing to commit sin again; if I am not willing to abandon all sin, and to be holy, the Lord will not hear me. That is, He will not regard and answer my prayer. The idea is, that in order that prayer may be heard, there must be a purpose to forsake all forms of sin. This is a great and most important principle in regard to prayer. The same principle is affirmed or implied in Psalm 18:41; 34:15; Proverbs 1:28; 15:29; 28:9; Isaiah 15; Jeremiah 11:11; 14:12; Zechariah 7:13; John 9:31. It is also especially stated in Isaiah 58:3-7...If there is still the love of evil in his heart; if he has some cherished purpose of iniquity which he is not willing to abandon; if there is any one sin, however small or unimportant it may seem to be, which he is not willing to forsake, he cannot hope that God will hear his prayer; he may be assured that he will not. All prayer, to be acceptable to God, MUST be connected with a purpose to forsake all sin."

How can a sin-loving, God-despising, mentally darkened, and sin-enslaved person acquire the will to forsake all sin, those practices he holds most dear? It must come from God, not from our supposed free will. I hope this clarifies what I was trying to say.

[Missilelock]

swampfox

Gotcha- I figured i was misunderstanding you- I'm as happy as if i were in my right mind:p!!

[Guest Turkey Fife]

asdf

Buckee: I believe you are serious. I will respond to you ONLY.

Eph. 4:

[4] There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling;

[5] One Lord, one faith, one baptism,

[6] One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.

At one time their were more than ONE Baptism but now their is ONLY One.

Do you think Paul was Baptized Wrong? He was Baptized in Water. His sins were't really washed Away. He obeyed God and was Baptized for the forgiveness of his sins.

The Holy Spirit Baptism was for a REASON, it was different, from John's Baptism, in Acts 11:15 is the last time we have a HS Baptism. It was to show the Wonders and Signs of God. Men could speak in different Languages, Raise the Dead, CAN YOU DO THAT TODAY?

Their is one Baptism for us today and it's not HS Baptism it is Water Baptism. You look from Acts 11:15 ON and look at their Baptisms, Read Acts 19:1-5 See VS. 5 they were Baptized in the name of Christ. Then in VS. 6 they laid hands on them to recieve the Holy Spirit. You got to ask yourself why not Holy Spirit Baptism?

Will you please explain that question?

These other guys are just going to say. We are saved by Grace, By Faith, its a gift. Baptism is an outward showing of the inward man. They are not wanting the truth. Its too much work to Study the scriptures. They just believe what some Man Made Doctrine has taught them. Its Sad!

[johnf]

Swamp fox: I agree with most everything you say , but I gotta say that I sure dont read Psalm 66:18 the same way you do, & I dont think it supports your argument that man cannot seek God while still in sin.

I do believe that God first Loved me, chose me & seeked me, The same as every person on this earth. However I do believe God encourages us to seek him & he will be found.( whether we are living in sin or saved) Maybe Im just not understanding you correctly.

As for that 18th verse, I dont read anything into it except that God is wanting to hear the Prayers f a righteous man, & not paying much attn to a man who is hanging tight to his sin.

Boy, I just don't see how you can read that any other way. It seems like there is only one way to read that one.

[buckee]

hard determinists argue that the universe is deterministic, and that this makes free will impossible.

Determinism is the philosophical proposition that every event, including human cognition, decision and action, is causally determined by an unbroken chain of prior occurrences.

Determinism may also be defined as the thesis that there is at any instant exactly one physically possible future.

Theological determinism is the thesis that there is a God who determines all that humans will do, either by knowing their actions in advance, via some form of omniscience[7] or by decreeing their actions in advance.[8] The problem of free will, in this context, is the problem of how our actions can be free, if there is a being who has determined them for us ahead of time.

Here is a good reference discussion on Free will

http://www.comereason.org/phil_qstn/phi037.asp

I am not a scholar of theology, nor am I a professor, so please excuse my simpleness. I believe in God. I believe he is omniscience and omnipotent. I believe he knows man's actions before we make them, and he knows our future, because he has willed(or decreed) the future of mankind and the universe. With that said, it does not mean that God has decreed all that humans will do in the span of their lifetime, otherwise he would be responsible for me sinning also , and all responsibility would be lifted from my shoulders. Sinning "against" God would be irrelevant. How can one "sin against God" if it has been decreed by God beforehand, that he sin in the first place.

God has however decreed the penalty and the rewards of this life, and the future plans for the Universe and mankind. That however does not mean that man has no free will. It just means, that man's free will, is limited, to what God has already set in motion. Although man can chose, in which direction to walk, the destination has already been determined by God, for each route he may chose.

Because of sin, man could not chose God, unless first God chose and implemented the plan in which to save man. Although man still has the free will to chose to believe in God's divine, perfect plan, or God's will for mankind, or believe not, it does not change God's plan or will for mankind. This in no way changes the fact that God first chose us, for if God did not chose to send his Son, to die in our place and shed his precious blood for us, their would be no salvation for man to choose. Choosing to believe God's word, can hardly be misconstrued as a work. That is what Faith is. Faith comes from hearing God's word. We absorb it, we ponder it, and we either reject it or accept it.

Man does not have the ability to change God's perfect will, and yet man does have the ability to go against, or reject God's will. God's will or wish, is that all men be saved, but will they ? Although man's free-will choices do not effect or change God's Will, decree or wish for us. those choices although free to make, do come with rewards or consequences, set forth by God himself.

Man, has free will to reject, or go against God's will (perfect wish for us), but man has no power to change God's perfect overall plan for the world, in the final scheme of things.

A good example is that although man has to exercise his will, just to get out of bed in the morning, he cannot will himself to levitate out of bed. He does not have free will over that which has already been established. (the laws of nature).

Does Man have the will to go against God's Will?

Of course he does, and has since the beginning. It was God's will for man to live forever when he first created him. It was not God's will for man to die in the beginning, even though He decreed that man would die, if he disobeyed him.

It was not God's will or decree, that Adam eat from the tree of knowledge, but it was his decree, that he would surely die, if he did. It was not God's will or supreme, perfect wish or decree that Adam eat from the tree, but he did anyway.

The word "will" has more that just one meaning, and when it comes to "God's will" it is a perfect will. Not imperfect like our own.

It was God's will to send his Son to die for us, so that we might be saved. It was God who set the standard to either believe or don't believe, which requires thought, and free-will.

He did not make us as programed robots to control our every action and thought.

Definition of Will(1)

#1

A - The mental faculty by which one deliberately chooses or decides upon a course of action:

B - The act of exercising the will.

#2

A - Diligent purposefulness; determination

B - Self-control; self-discipline

#3

A desire, purpose, or determination, especially of one in authority: It is the sovereign's will that the prisoner be spared.

#4

Deliberate intention or wish; Let it be known that I took this course of action against my will.

#5

Free discretion; inclination or pleasure: wandered about, guided only by will

#6

Bearing or attitude toward others; disposition: full of good will.

#7

A - A legal declaration of how a person wishes his or her possessions to be disposed of after death.

B - A legally executed document containing this declaration.

WILL(2)

1 - Used to indicate simple futurity: They will appear later.

2 - Used to indicate likelihood or certainty: You will regret this.

3 - Used to indicate willingness: Will you help me with this package?

4 - Used to indicate requirement or command: You will report to me afterward.

5 - Used to indicate intention: I will too if I feel like it.

6 - Used to indicate customary or habitual action: People will talk.

7 - Used to indicate capacity or ability: This metal will not crack under heavy pressure.

8 - Used to indicate probability or expectation: That will be the messenger ringing.

To wish; desire:

The big difference between God's will and our will, is that God's will, is a perfect will, without corruption, whether it be his perfect, Deliberate intention or wish for us, his requirement or command.

While man's will is subject to error along side what God's will for us already is. His perfect pleasure for us, is not necessarily the willful choice we would make for ourselves.

Definition of God's Will(1)

#1

A - The "Perfect" mental faculty by which one deliberately chooses or decides upon a course of action:

B - The "Perfect" act of exercising the will.

#2

A - "Perfect" Diligent purposefulness; determination

B - "Perfect" Self-control; self-discipline

#3

A "Perfect" desire, "Perfect" purpose, or "Perfect" determination, especially of one in authority: It is the sovereign's "Perfect" will that the prisoner be spared.

#4

"Perfect" Deliberate intention or wish; Let it be known that I took this course of "Perfect" action .

#5

"Perfect" Free discretion; "Perfect" inclination or "Perfect" pleasure: guided only by "Perfect" will

#6

"Perfect" Bearing or attitude toward others; disposition: full of good will.

#7

A - A "Perfect" legal declaration of how God wishes his or her possessions to be disposed of after "your" physical death.

B - A legally, "Perfectly" executed document containing this declaration.

God's WILL(2)

1 - Used to indicate God's "Perfect" plan of our futurity:

2 - Used to indicate "Perfect" certainty: You will regret this or you will be saved.

3 - Used to indicate "Perfect" willingness: Believe in me, and you "will" be saved

4 - Used to indicate "Perfect" requirement or "Perfect" command: Believe in me, and you "will" be saved

5 - Used to indicate "Perfect" intention: When God says "I will", it is perfect, and he will.

6 - Used to indicate "Perfect" customary or "Perfect" habitual action declared by his "Perfect" will.

7 - Used to indicate "Perfect" capacity or "Perfect" ability: I will not forsake you.

8 - Used to indicate "Perfect" probability or "Perfect" expectation: He "will" hear our prayers.

To wish "Perfectly"; desire "Perfectly":

Only when our will, lines up with God's will for us, can it be called God's "Perfect" will for us. And that could never happen, unless God first provided a way for us, which was done through his Son Jesus Christ.

When our will does not line up with God's will, we will still have to answer to God's "Perfect" will for those who disobey.

The big problem with Calvinism, is it distorts the word "Will" in the bible, by interpreting it with only one definition " absolute decree".

If Calvinism were true, then there would be no need for the bible, no need for Jesus to die for our sins, no need to preach a gospel of any kind, no need to believe or disbelieve anything, and no real need to even think for ourselves, since God will think for us, and select those he wishes to save, and those he doesn't and basically make us do as he wishes.

After all, What is faith? according to the calvinist thinking, if we heard something and believed it, then it would be considered works, and disqualify our faith.

What is repenting of our sins? It is hardly an act of good works. It is an act of Faith, in which we wouldn't have even considered, unless God hadn't first decreed what sin was, and drew us to himself through his truth. We can hardly call it works to repent of one's sins. It is an act of conviction of which could not have been made without the Lord's preparation for us, through opening our eyes and ears through his word..

But to say man has no free-will is also an error by the calvinist, because they read too much into the word "free" and "will" there too. Man does have free-will, but it is limited to what God has already put in place, and subject to it in the end.