once saved always saved

[johnf]

These other guys are just going to say. We are saved by Grace, By Faith, its a gift. Baptism is an outward showing of the inward man. They are not wanting the truth. Its too much work to Study the scriptures. They just believe what some Man Made Doctrine has taught them. Its Sad!

I take offence to that statement Turkey. I grew up in a works based cult not unlike the one that you are obviously involved in now. I have gotten by beliefs through much prayer and biblical study. I formed these beliefs before I ever joined a church. If you have studied scripture in depth (which I have serious doubt about) you would know that the word "church" in the bible came from the Greek "ekklisia" which means "the congregation" or "the bride of Christ". It has nothing to do with a name on a building it has to do with the belief we all hold. Christ body has many parts and many ways of gathering his seed whether you want to believe it or not. I don't believe exactly like anyone on here. Jeremie and I have had many debates as buckee and I have and others. I don't believe either one of them is any less saved than me because when I see their post, I see Christ love pouring out of them (yes even when I don't agree). I see no love in you. There are many people that stand, sit, kneel, take Communion, get baptised and say prayers every day that are not part of that Ekklisia. There are some in my church, some in buckee and some in yours.

Who knows a man's soul? Definitely not you.

You offend, I rebuke your false teaching and have pity for your soul.

[Jeramie]

Their is one Baptism for us today and it's not HS Baptism it is Water Baptism. You look from Acts 11:15 ON and look at their Baptisms, Read Acts 19:1-5 See VS. 5 they were Baptized in the name of Christ. Then in VS. 6 they laid hands on them to recieve the Holy Spirit. You got to ask yourself why not Holy Spirit Baptism?

Will you please explain that question?

Baptism of any sort is NOT required to enter the gates of Glory. I can prove it in one passage from the Bible.

Luke 23:

38And a superscription also was written over him in letters of Greek, and Latin, and Hebrew, THIS IS THE KING OF THE JEWS.

39And one of the malefactors which were hanged railed on him, saying, If thou be Christ, save thyself and us.

40But the other answering rebuked him, saying, Dost not thou fear God, seeing thou art in the same condemnation?

41And we indeed justly; for we receive the due reward of our deeds: but this man hath done nothing amiss.

42And he said unto Jesus, Lord, remember me when thou comest into thy kingdom.

43And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, Today shalt thou be with me in paradise.

44And it was about the sixth hour, and there was a darkness over all the earth until the ninth hour.

45And the sun was darkened, and the veil of the temple was rent in the midst. 46And when Jesus had cried with a loud voice, he said, Father, into thy hands I commend my spirit: and having said thus, he gave up the ghost.

This Passage in the Bible says nothing about Baptism. This guy asked for fogivness on the Cross and was forgivin. Jesus didnt say, "Tell ya what, climb down, dip yourself in some water, receive the Holy Ghost and youre all set." The man was literally saved on the Cross that very minute. And as we "discuss" such things he is eating from the Father's table.

And he was in fact a modern day Christian. He had to believe in who Christ was before he could be remembered in Heaven.

[wtnhunt]

Baptism of any sort is NOT required to enter the gates of Glory. I can prove it in one passage from the Bible.

Luke 23:

38And a superscription also was written over him in letters of Greek, and Latin, and Hebrew, THIS IS THE KING OF THE JEWS.

39And one of the malefactors which were hanged railed on him, saying, If thou be Christ, save thyself and us.

40But the other answering rebuked him, saying, Dost not thou fear God, seeing thou art in the same condemnation?

41And we indeed justly; for we receive the due reward of our deeds: but this man hath done nothing amiss.

42And he said unto Jesus, Lord, remember me when thou comest into thy kingdom.

43And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, Today shalt thou be with me in paradise.

44And it was about the sixth hour, and there was a darkness over all the earth until the ninth hour.

45And the sun was darkened, and the veil of the temple was rent in the midst. 46And when Jesus had cried with a loud voice, he said, Father, into thy hands I commend my spirit: and having said thus, he gave up the ghost.

This Passage in the Bible says nothing about Baptism. This guy asked for fogivness on the Cross and was forgivin. Jesus didnt say, "Tell ya what, climb down, dip yourself in some water, receive the Holy Ghost and youre all set." The man was literally saved on the Cross that very minute. And as we "discuss" such things he is eating from the Father's table.

And he was in fact a modern day Christian. He had to believe in who Christ was before he could be remembered in Heaven.

Thank you for that clarification Jeramie. That answers a question I have had for quite some time.

[Guest swampfox]

Buckee,

You have defined "will" in various ways. What is you definition of "free will"? What I mean by free will is the belief that man in and of himself has the power to choose right from wrong. In other words, "free will" asserts that man is unaffected by Adam's sin or by the Spirit of God in his ability to choose. Man can FREELY, of his own accord, choose to obey God or reject Him. Original sin does not hinder him and God's Spirit need nor assist him because his will is free. Most Arminians deny that Adam's sin affects our will in a corrupting fashion, thus they deny the doctrine of original sin. What do you believe happened to mankind when Adam sinned?

You seem to agree with me in part when you say things like:

It just means, that man's free will, is limited, to what God has already set in motion. Although man can chose, in which direction to walk, the destination has already been determined by God, for each route he may chose...Because of sin, man could not chose God, unless first God chose and implemented the plan in which to save man...It is an act of Faith, in which we wouldn't have even considered, unless God hadn't first decreed what sin was, and drew us to himself through his truth. We can hardly call it works to repent of one's sins. It is an act of conviction of which could not have been made without the Lord's preparation for us, through opening our eyes and ears through his word

At times it sounds like you and I agree on a denial of free will. You say that God is a necessary part of our choices. You say that God must prepare us, draw us, that man could not choose God alone, and man's will is limited. Your view, like mine, is against free will it seems to me.

Calvinists affirm that man is a free moral agent able to choose between Hardees and McDs. Yet due to the fall, man's will is not free to choose God or anything truly good (in God's eyes). All of man's choices will be made in consistency with his own corrupt nature. Man is free only to choose that which agrees with his nature. He may choose to do "good" things in a civic sense such as mowing his neighbor's grass. Yet this "good deed" is but a filthy rag because it springs from a corrupt, God-despising heart. Everything that man chooses in his lost condition, (going to church, giving to the poor, giving his body to be burned) is evil in God's site because it does not spring from a regenerated heart of love to Christ.

You say, "choosing to believe God's word, can hardly be misconstrued as a work. That is what Faith is. Faith comes from hearing God's word. We absorb it, we ponder it, and we either reject it or accept it." Faith is the product of regeneration, not the cause of regeneration. God awakens us, gives us faith to believe, and grants us repentance. Salvation is all of God. Man has no room for boasting of his own faith or his own repentance. "For who maketh thee to differ from another? and what hast thou that thou didst not receive? now if thou didst receive it, why dost thou glory, as if thou hadst not received it?" ! Corinthians 4:7 Dead men cannot have faith. Dead men cannot repent. Dead men cannot choose to live. God is the source of new life. I seriously doubt that in heaven the four and twenty elders will be casting their crowns before repentant sinners who, in and of themselves, were worthy to be saved because they were able to believe and repent. Let us give Jesus all of the glory when a sinner repents.

You say, "otherwise he would be responsible for me sinning also , and all responsibility would be lifted from my shoulders" Acts 2 says, "Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain" This teaches us that God determined long ago that Jesus would be slain. I believe God also knew who would authorize the killing, who would drive the nails, who would mock him, who would pluck his beard, etc. This verse teaches us that though God is sovereign in these matters, He yet holds men responsible for their actions. God decrees yet holds men responsible. It is a mystery to me exactly how this is so, but it is taught in the Bible, so I believe it. I cannot explain the trinity, yet I believe it because it is in God's word. Some Arminians theologians in reaction to this view of God's sovereignty and in effort to protect the free will of man have proposed "open theism" which says that God cannot know the future actions of men. It denies God's omniscience. What do you think, Buckee?

"He did not make us as programed robots to control our every action and thought." I agree. Our evil choices are freely made in congruence with our nature. We are not compelled to sin, we do so willingly. Neither are we compelled against our will to repent, but God makes us willing to repent.

"After all, What is faith? according to the calvinist thinking, if we heard something and believed it, then it would be considered works, and disqualify our faith." What I am saying is that we are saved by grace through faith (given as a gift from God), and that not of ourselves. If man has any part in salvation, such as submitting to baptism, saying a prayer, reciting a creed, etc then that is works salvation. If man takes credit for saving faith or repentance this distorts the picture. Salvation is of the Lord.

[Guest Turkey Fife]

asdf

JohnF Said: I am washing your dust from my feet.

Could you please just keep your word??????

[Guest swampfox]

more depth

http://www.freepres.org/westminster.htm#chapter9

Westminster Confession of Faith

CHAPTER IX

Of Free Will

1) God hath endued the will of man with that natural liberty, that it is neither forced, nor by any absolute necessity of nature determined to good or evil.

But I say unto you, That Elias is come already, and they knew him not, but have done unto him whatsoever they listed. Likewise shall also the Son of man suffer of them. Matthew 17:12

But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed. James 1:14

I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live: Deut 30:19

2) Man, in his state of innocency, had freedom and power to will and to do that which was good, and well pleasing to God; but yet mutably, so that he might fall from it. Eccl. vii. 29; Gen. i. 26; Gen. ii. 16, 17; Gen. iii. 6.

3) Man, by his fall into a state of sin, hath wholly lost all ability of will to any spiritual good accompanying salvation: so as, a natural man, being altogether averse from that good, and dead in sin, is not able, by his own strength, to convert himself, or to prepare himself thereunto.

For when we were yet without strength, in due time Christ died for the ungodly. Rom. v. 6

Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be. So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God. Rom. viii. 7-8

I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing. John xv. 5

As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one: There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God. They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one. Rom. iii. 10-12

But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned. 1 Cor. ii. 14

No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day...And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father. John vi. 44, 65

And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses Col. ii. 13

For we ourselves also were sometimes foolish, disobedient, deceived, serving divers lusts and pleasures, living in malice and envy, hateful, and hating one another. But after that the kindness and love of God our Saviour toward man appeared, Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost; Titus iii. 3-5

Also see Eph. ii. 1-5

4) When God converts a sinner, and translates him into the state of grace, He freeth him from his natural bondage under sin; and, by His grace alone, enables him freely to will and to do that which is spiritually good; yet so, as that by reason of his remaining corruption, he doth not perfectly, nor only, will that which is good, but doth also will that which is evil.

Col. i. 13; John viii. 34. 36; Phil. ii. 13; Rom. vi. 18, 22; Gal. v. 17; Rom. vii. 15, 18, 19, 21, 23.

5) The will of man is made perfectly and immutably free to good alone, in the state of glory only.

Eph. iv. 13; Heb. xii. 23; 1 John iii. 2; Jude. ver. 24.

[Guest Turkey Fife]

asdf

Buckee,

Turkey Fife, maybe what you need to do is take a good long look at the thief on the cross beside Jesus.

No study

No church

No Baptism

etc

etc

Jermie: We had this discussion before so I just C&P'ed for you.

Just something to think about. (HOW DO YOU KNOW THE THEIF WAS NOT BAPTIZED?) John the Baptist was Baptizing Unto the remission of sins.

You cannot prove he wasn't anymore than I can prove he was. Its a MOTE point.

But, still I have MUCH to say about the Theif. First is that he will be in Heaven. Because Christ said he would!

[johnf]

Jeremie, that point has been made about the thief. To my knowledge the bible never says be baptised and repent, or be baptised and believe or be baptised and whatever. To be dead in Christ and baptised is pointless. To be saved and baptised is obedient. Since the thief on the cross was being crucified by Roman law we can't even say that he was Jewish. If he were not Jewish, John would never have baptised him. There were many other cultures in Jerusalem at the time of Christ's crucifiction. The chances that he were a Jew are unlikely and the chances that he were baptised are astronomical. Anyway we know that he did not repent until after he was on the cross, so any baptism would have been pointless and only made him wet.

The only logical conclusion is that he was saved only because he believed Christ. Any other would be baseless speculation.

[Guest swampfox]

Fife says, "HOW DO YOU KNOW THE THEIF WAS NOT BAPTIZED?) John the Baptist was Baptizing Unto the remission of sins."

If the thief had whole-heartedly submitted to John's baptism of repentance, it is very doubtful that he would end up a convicted thief three years later.

I want to re-ask you a question, Turkey Fife, since you did not answer it before.

Do you believe that it is possible for me or Buckee or hogdawg to be saved in our present position outside of the "Church of Christ's" denominational boundaries? You may deny that the "Church of Christ" is a denomination, but it is, nonetheless. I am not a member of the "Church of Christ", yet I believe and have evidence that I AM a member of Christ's blood-bought body. Can I be saved as I am, unbaptized in the "Church of Christ"?

[johnf]

Hey swampfox what about me. Well, I guess that would make him more likely to say no.

[Jeramie]

Jermie: We had this discussion before so I just C&P'ed for you.

Just something to think about. (HOW DO YOU KNOW THE THEIF WAS NOT BAPTIZED?) John the Baptist was Baptizing Unto the remission of sins.

You cannot prove he wasn't anymore than I can prove he was. Its a MOTE point.

But, still I have MUCH to say about the Theif. First is that he will be in Heaven. Because Christ said he would!

Seriously? Youre really reaching for that one.

[buckee]

Is the idea of the Eternal Security of the Believer, also known as "Once Saved Always Saved" Supported by Scripture?

Maybe you missed the "IFS"

Matthew 24.10-13 And at that time many will fall away and will deliver up one another and hate one another. And many false prophets will arise, and will mislead many. And because lawlessness is increased, most people's love will grow cold But the one who endures to the end, he shall be saved.

John 15.10 If you obey my commands, you will remain in my love, just as I have obeyed my Father' s commands and remain in his love

1 Timothy 4 1 The Spirit explicitly says that in later times some will fall away from the faith

Romans 11.21 For if God did not spare the natural branches, he will not spare you either. 22 Consider therefore the kindness and sternness of God: sternness to those who fell, but kindness to you, provided that you continue in his kindness. Otherwise, you also will be cut off.

This is written to believers.

Galatians 6.7-8 Do not be deceived: God cannot be mocked. A man reaps what he sows. The one who sows to please his sinful nature, from that nature will reap destruction; the one who sows to please the Spirit, from the Spirit will reap eternal life.

Philippians 3.11-14: in order that I may attain to the resurrection from the dead. Not that I have already obtained it or have already become perfect, but I press on in order that I may lay hold of that for which also I was laid hold of by Christ Jesus. Brethren, I do not regard myself as having laid hold of it yet; but one thing I do forgetting what lies behind and reaching forward to what lies ahead, I press on toward the goal for the prize of the upward call of God in Christ Jesus.

1 Timothy 1 18-19: Timothy, my son, I give you this instruction in keeping with the prophecies once made about you, so that by following them you may fight the good fight, holding on to faith and a good conscience. Some have rejected these and so have shipwrecked their faith.

Hebrews 6: 4-6 For in the case of those who have once been enlightened and have tasted of the heavenly gift and have been made partakers of the Holy Spirit, 5 and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, 6 and THEN HAVE FALLEN AWAY, it is impossible to renew them again to repentance, since they again crucify to themselves the Son of God, and put Him to open shame.

2 Peter 2 20: If they have escaped the corruption of the world by knowing our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ and are again entangled in it and overcome, they are worse off at the end than they were at the beginning. 21It would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than to have known it and then to turn their backs on the sacred command that was passed on to them.

Again, this passage is clear. Salvation can be lost.

2 Peter 3.16 Paul's letters contain some things that are hard to understand, which ignorant and unstable people distort, as they do the other Scriptures, to their own destruction. 17 Therefore, dear friends, since you already know this, be on your guard so that you may not be carried away by the error of lawless men and fall from your secure position.

The Christian's position is not so "secure" that it cannot be lost.

Revelation 3.5 He who overcomes will, like them, be dressed in white. I will never blot out his name from the book of life, but will acknowledge his name before my Father and his angels.11 I am coming soon. Hold on to what you have, so that no one will take your crown. 12 Him who overcomes I will make a pillar in the temple of my God.

Scripture repeatedly makes clear that one has to overcome in order to achieve the promise, and that a Christian can lose their crown of salvation. The Teaching of "Eternal Security", Assurance of Salvation or "Once Saved Always Saved", is therefore unscriptural and extremely dangerous, since it can lead people into a false sense that they are guaranteed salvation no matter what they do after their conversion and taste of God's mercy and grace.

[johnf]

Hebrews 6: 4-6 For in the case of those who have once been enlightened and have tasted of the heavenly gift and have been made partakers of the Holy Spirit, 5 and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, 6 and THEN HAVE FALLEN AWAY, it is impossible to renew them again to repentance, since they again crucify to themselves the Son of God, and put Him to open shame.

2 Peter 2 20: If they have escaped the corruption of the world by knowing our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ and are again entangled in it and overcome, they are worse off at the end than they were at the beginning. 21It would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than to have known it and then to turn their backs on the sacred command that was passed on to them.

It's these two scriptures specifically that make me believe that if it is possible to lose your salvation then it is quite impossible to regain it. I don't, however, believe it is as easily lost as some on here do.

[buckee]

I don't think it's easily lost either John. I mean, once a person has repented and tasted the gift of mercy and grace, it is pretty hard to turn your back on salvation and go back to what you once were.

[buckee]

Calvinism is a cruel and unjust doctrine. The idea that God would create people, make them behave in a certain way, and then condemn them to everlasting torture for behaving in that way, is contrary to everything the Bible taught. Where is Satan in this Plan, or has the Calvanist given God both traits ?

Calvinism goes against the whole flow of New Testament teaching. It substitutes a vengeful, capricious and merciless God, for the loving Father of Jesus's teachings. The price paid for unraveling the tangled knot of Lutheran logic is too high. In order to avoid the need for Good Works, the Gospel has been distorted out of all recognition. Jesus's teachings make little sense under Calvinism, and make no sense at all if we do not have Free Will to act on them.

In addition Calvinism has led to..

1. Fatalism. What is the point of evangelizing, if it is already decided who is to be saved? Similarly, if a person is starving or in need, God has put him in that position, so there is no need to do anything about it.

2. A Tribal Consciousness. Groups and Nationalities began to see themselves as "Chosen by God". Other peoples, not being so "chosen", could be treated harshly. Calvinist groups are seen as exacerbating divisions in places like Ireland, the USA and South Africa.

Calvinism seems and is directly opposed to the whole tenor of Jesus's teaching on Good Works and Jesus's constant exhortations to us to make the right choices. Why should He have spent so much of his ministry on this sort of teaching if we did not have the Free Will to profit by it? This is one reason why Free Will has always been so important to the historic Church, and why our deeds, (or works) are vitally important., not to earn one's salvation, but an after product of one's salvation and God's loving Grace.

We can see that the Bible also denies the idea of irresistible grace, showing that our Free Will does affect its action.

2 Cor 6: 1 As God’s fellow workers we urge you not to receive God’s grace in vain. (NIV).

The Bible shows clearly that God wants everyone to be saved, and that He has not predestined anyone for damnation.

1 Timothy 2.3-4: This is good, and it is acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour, who desires ALL men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.

2 Peter 3; 9 The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. He is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance. (NIV).

1 John 2: 2 He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world. (NIV).

..................................................

Five-Points of Calvinism are as follows:

1. Total inability

2. Unconditional election

3. Limited atonement

4. Irresistible grace

5. Perseverance of the saints

1. Total inability

The teaching of Five-Point Calvinism is that man is totally unable to do anything to obtain salvation, which in a sense is true to a point, because man did not send Jesus to die for himself, God did. The plan for the salvation of man-kind was God's plan, not man's. It is true that without God's loving gift of grace through faith in Jesus Christ and repentance of sin, man could not save himself.

They state very emphatically though that man cannot repent or believe the Gospel. Their teaching is that man cannot believe until he is born again, which is completely backward to what the gospels teach. Although there

may be some hidden truth in what they say, a man must have faith, and believe, before he can repent and be born again. But God, through his grace does definitly give us more faith after that conversion as we begin to live our lives in him. He builds us and strengthens us, if we are listening.

With the statement that man cannot repent, we find the Word of God stating the exact opposite.

In Acts 17:30 we find that God commands all men everywhere to repent, and that having so commanded, He expects they can and will.

In 2 Peter 3:9 we find that God is not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance. If they should come, then they can come. God does not mock men by asking them to do what they cannot do.

In Acts 11:18 we are told that God hath granted to the Gentiles repentance unto life. Notice that the repentance comes first and it results in life.

They state that man cannot believe the Gospel, and that man cannot believe until his is born again, let the following Scripture be studied- John 1:12, 3:15, 16, 36, 5:24, 6:40, 7:39, 12:36, and 20:31. These Scriptures all show that spiritual life follows upon the sinner's believing in Jesus Christ. The Apostle John gave as his reason for writing his gospel, "that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God: and that believing ye might have life through His name." It is very clear that believing comes first and new birth follows. Believing requires a man to think for himself, and to make the conclusion of either disbelief or belief(Faith) The verses from the Gospel of John by no means exhausts the Scripture which prove life through believing. If you will take Strong's

and study the words "believe, believed, and believeth" you will find much more. A notable example

is Acts 16:31 where Paul said, "believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and thou shalt be saved." The Calvinist would twist it to read, "when thou art saved by the Lord Jesus Christ thou shalt believe." What utter disregard for the plain teaching of the Word of God.

They also state those whom He regenerates are then capable of believing by virtue of their new birth. Man does not have a free will by which he is able to come to Christ for salvation.Concerning the statement that man does not have a free will by which he is able to come to Christ, please note what Jesus said in John 7:17: "if any man will do His will he shall know of the doctrine." Here He said that a man may will to do God's will. Again in John 5:40 Jesus rebuked the Jews when He said "ye will not come to me, that ye might have life." It was not that they could not come, but that they would not come. In Rev. 22:17 the Word of God declares "whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely." Here God makes a real offer of the water of life to "WHOSOEVER WILL."

God has been pleased by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe (1 Cor. 1:21). Salvation is by believing, and if we tell the lost man that he cannot believe, we shut the gates of Heaven against him and find ourselves in the hideous company of him who "hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ Who is the image of God, should shine unto them." (2 Cor. 4:4)

They also state that this new birth is brought about by God who chooses certain individuals and regenerates them. (They distort the word choose here. God chose to send his son to die for all mankind, not just a predestined select few. So yes, God did choose us before we were even born, because of his plan for our salvation. Our regeneration happens as we walk with Christ and are obedient to his commands and the Holy Spirit. This still requires choices. Our spirit is willing, but our flesh is weak, and with the strength and help from the Holy Spirit we can overcome.)

...............................................

2. Unconditional election

Five-Point Calvinism says that God has determined and decreed that some are to be saved without any conditions to be met on their part, whatsoever. This is called Unconditional election and is the choosing of some to salvation in Christ, while at the same time leaving the rest in their lost condition by not choosing them. This election is not based on God's foreknowing that certain would believe, but is based on His sovereign will to elect certain ones. Those who are not chosen to be part of the Elect of God can in no way enter into that company. In line with this teaching the statement is made that God does not love all men, but only those whom he has chosen to be saved.

The Scriptures are very plain that God has His Elect ones who by faith in Jesus Christ are predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son (Rom. 8:29). They are adopted by God and Chosen in Christ before the foundation of the world (Eph. 1:4,5). This election is plainly declared to be based on the foreknowledge of God (1 Peter 1:2 and Rom. 8:29). Since God knows the end from the beginning He foreknows those who will believe in Christ. He has purposed that they will be to the praise of His glory throughout the ages and through them He will show the exceeding riches of His grace (Eph. 2:7)

This election is plainly declared to be based on the foreknowledge of God, not the predestination of mankind. Gods wish (will) is that all men be saved, but he sadly knows, that not all will.

The Scriptures are also very plain in stating that "whosoever will" may come to Christ. This requires free-will, not predestination.

Please read the following Scriptures- John 3:15,16, 4:14, 12:46, Acts 2:21, 10:43, Rom. 10:13, Rev. 22:17. The word "whosoever" means all, any, every, the whole. Since we believe in the verbal, plenary inspiration of the Word of God we are forced to believe that when God moves the Scripture writers to say "whosoever," then that is exactly what He means. That there is a condition to be met in order for one to be saved is proved by our Lord's words in John 8:24 "for if ye believe not that I am, ye shall die in your sins." Other Scriptures have already been quoted under Total Inability to bear out the conditional requirement of believing in order to have salvation.

That God loves all men in this world and sent His Son to die for them is abundantly clear from John 3:16. The Five-Point Calvinist changes the meaning of the word "world" here and adds to the Word of God by placing immediately behind it two words, "the elect." The verse then appears this way, "For God so loved the world (the elect) that He gave His only begotten Son, etc." I have seen this verse written in this way in gospel tracts. The word "world" is used 77 times in the Gospel of John. I would encourage you to take Strong's Concordance and look up each occurrence, then insert the words "the elect" behind each usage of it. You do not have to go far before you see how ridiculous it is.

If God does not love all men then we should not love them either. Since our Christian character comes from the indwelling of our Lord, we cannot show an attribute that is superior to His. Yet strangely enough, the Word of God says we are to love our enemies, our wives, our husbands, our children. If we must love lost sinners, and our Lord is holier than we are, we must believe that He loves them too. I'll believe John 3:16 as it stands unaltered by the followers of John Calvin. thank you.

3. Limited atonement

Calvinism states that Christ died on the Cross for the sins of the Elect. To say that He died for the sins of the non-elect is not reasonable to them. Since, according to their system, God has chosen some to be saved and chosen the rest to be lost, He cannot require the death of Christ for those He does not plan to save anyhow. Therefore the Atonement of Christ is limited to the Elect only.

If you have accepted Total Inability and Unconditional Election it is necessary to limit the scope of Christ's death on Calvary. The only problem is that the Scriptures directly state that the death of Christ was for every man and is effective for the sinner the moment he believes.

In 1 John 2:2 it is said that His death was a propitiation (satisfaction) not only for our sins but for the sins of "the whole world." In Hebrews 2:9 it says that Christ tasted death for "every man." 1 Tim. 2:6 says that He gave Himself a ransom for "all." John the Baptist declared in John 1:29 that Jesus was the Lamb of God that taketh away the sin of the "world." In Isaiah 53:6 the Word of God states that "all" have gone astray (I would assume that refers to all men in the world) and that the Lord laid on Jesus the iniquity of us "all." Since the Gospel is for "whosoever will" and it consists of the good news that Christ died for sinners, I must believe that the Atonement of Christ is not limited.

Not only is the Atonement of Christ unlimited and offered to all men, but the Holy Spirit is presently working to convict the world (all men) of all sin, and one new sin in particuler. That sin is that Christ paid the penalty for their sins, but they do not believe on Him (John 16:8,9). God is not willing that any should perish (2 Peter 3:9) and it is said that He will have all men to be saved (1 Tim. 2:4). In Scripture we find the Father giving the Son to the world, the Son tasting death for every man, and the Holy Spirit convicting the world. Since God's work must be our work, it would be wise to part company with Five-Point Calvinism right here and now.

The Bible knows nothing of a limited Atonement, that comes from the vain intellectual reasoning of men.

4. Irresistible Grace

Calvinists teach that all those whom God has chosen to be saved will be unable to resist the call of God. Since He has predetermined them to be saved, He effectually calls and regenerates them without any condition to be met on their part.

The Word of God teaches that the Grace of God, that bringeth salvation, has appeared to all men (Titus 2:11). Since God has provided salvation for all men, and yet all do not come, that is proof enough that men do resist the Grace of God. The Bible gives clear instances of men resisting the Grace of God. Jesus stood over Jerusalem and said that He wanted to gather them unto Himself, but they would not (Matt. 23:37). When Stephen preached to the Jews he said that regarding their attitude toward God's Word they were stiff-necked and that they were resisting the Holy Spirit Who was calling them (Acts 7:51). The writer of Hebrews, when describing those who draw back unto perdition (Heb. 10:39), said that though they were sanctified by the blood of Christ, yet they had done despite unto the Spirit of Grace (Heb. 10:28,29). Here it is plain that the blood of Christ was available to them for salvation, but was refused. That the Spirit of God strives with sinners to bring them to repentance and faith is stated in Gen. 6:3. This verse also states that God will one day give man up when His grace is continually resisted.

5. Perseverance of the Saints

Most Fundamentalists would find little to disagree with in this statement, except to qualify the way God chooses men to be saved by stating that His Election is according to His foreknowledge. The eternal security of the believer is a fundamental doctrine of Scripture. However, the false teaching set forth under the first four points of Calvinism bear their inevitable fruit here. There is a subtle exclusion here which is not seen in the stated position, but which eventually shows up in practice. In churches where these doctrines are taught there are the following effects on those who come into the assembly:-

1. The man who is under the conviction of the Spirit and on the threshold of believing in Christ is soon hearing that he cannot of himself believe and unless God has chosen him to salvation there is nothing he can do.

2. The one who has been born again, but is still a babe in Christ, is often expected to exhibit a spiritual life more advanced than his growth to date. Because the fruit is slow in coming he begins to doubt whether he is truly born again. Thus, one who is a child of God begins to doubt that he is a true believer and sits at home in absolute frustration, convinced that God has not chosen him.

3. Those who are saved and living a spiritual life begin to develop an intellectual superiority over those who cannot see the so called "glorious truths revealed by John Calvin". Since they are the Elect of God and the unsaved are the Non-Elect whom God does not love, they begin to display a self-righteous attitude toward those lost in sin. The attitude of the Jews toward the Gentiles, whom they referred to as "dogs," begins to come into the life of the Calvinist. It is the attitude displayed by John Calvin when he desired the death penalty to be pronounced upon Servetus. John Calvin handled the theological part of the trial of Servetus, who was subsequently burned at the stake for blasphemy.

The usage of the phrase "perseverance of the saints" gives the impression that the saints are doing something to keep themselves secure in their salvation. A more Scriptural phrase would seem to be the "preservation of the Saints" (1 Thess. 5:23; Jude 1).

Beloved, inquire of your Bible teacher regarding Calvinism. Do not be satisfied with a "purposely evasive" answer. The man who holds these teachings usually will not be a soul-winner or be mission minded. If your church has no outreach for the lost it may well be that Five-Point Calvinism has already done it's deadly work.

This will help you find the right church.

[Guest swampfox]

"The Teaching of Eternal Security...is extremely dangerous, since it can lead people into a false sense that they are guaranteed salvation no matter what they do after their conversion and taste of God's mercy and grace."

The "perseverance of the saints" is the name traditionally given to the doctrine that is now commonly called "eternal security" or "once saved, always saved." As I have written, I prefer the old name because it emphasizes the fact that we cannot live as we want to and call ourselves "saved." If we are saved, we must persevere. So in a way, I agree with you. Like you, I despise meeting people who drink in iniquity like water and who profess to be followers of Christ. When they are confronted with their sin, they smugly speak of their "eternal security" because they were "saved" at age 12. This is disgusting to me and dishonors our savior. If you read the sermons of great Calvinists in the past, their preaching left no room for falsely secure sinners to be comfortable in their sin. Oh, for a return to strong preaching!

The ifs in scripture are there for a very good reason. If man becomes complacent as if God did not care how he lived, that is a dangerous position. Without holiness, none of us will see the Lord regardless of where we stand regarding Calvinism. I see great complacency and sin in the lives of many professed Calvinists and it galls me.

However, he weakness of Arminianism is that once man has been granted an active part in his own salvation, there is the very great danger of legalism creeping in. People inevitably begin to lose sight of Christ, the lamb of God, and focus instead on their own efforts to merit an entrance into heaven. Works come to the forefront at the expense of grace. Folks like Turkey Fife begin to think that salvation is about being baptized. Catholics believe that salvation is about confession, attendance at Mass, indulgences, etc.

Both positions have negative implications. Calvinism can degenerate into antinomianism, hypercalvinism, and spiritual sloth - "the preacher told me I'm saved, so I have nothing to fear." Arminianism can degenerate into legalism where man basically saves himself through his obedience, rituals, sacraments, etc., thereby, Christ's gracious role as the sole savior from sin is obscured.

For me Calvinism, or the doctrines of grace as I prefer to call them, is more Scriptural even though it has inherent weaknesses. Arminianism is not without its own dangerous weaknesses, but I reject it mainly because it is unscriptural.

I have a long list of "ifs" and I am always finding more of them. We should read of man's responsibility and tremble, asking the God of grace for help to obey his loving commandments. Calvinists affirm man's responsibility, yet we choose to give God the glory for any good that may be found in us. "For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing" Romans 7. You can cling, if you like, to your innate ability to believe, repent, and persevere. For me, I must give credit to Jesus for these gracious gifts to me. I I will be secure in His gracious promise to keep me safe for ever.

All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out. John 6

for I know whom I have believed, and am persuaded that he is able to keep that which I have committed unto him against that day. 2 Tim 1:2

Given this, I will still search myself, flee from sin, and keep His commandments in response to his gracious gift to me of the knowlegde of His Son. "Ye have not yet resisted unto blood, striving against sin." Hebrews 12:4

[buckee]

You can cling, if you like, to your innate ability to believe, repent, and persevere. For me, I must give credit to Jesus for these gracious gifts to me. I I will be secure in His gracious promise to keep me safe for ever.

I also give credit to Jesus Christ, because without him, and his Grace, I would have nothing to believe, no reason or hope to repent, and no means to persevere, without him.

[Guest swampfox]

That's quite a straw man you knocked over, Buckee.

"The idea that God would create people, make them behave in a certain way, and then condemn them to everlasting torture for behaving in that way, is contrary to everything the Bible taught." Calvinists do not teach that God makes them behave in a certain way, and then condemn them for behaving that way. The sinful actions of men are not compelled by God. Men choose sin of their own will. They willingly sin and are responsible to God for their actions. God offers them life, but they will not come.

"And ye will not come to me, that ye might have life." John 5

"It substitutes a vengeful, capricious and merciless God, for the loving Father of Jesus's teachings." What is vengeful, capricious, or merciless about God in the Calvinistic system? All men are sinners worthy of punishment. God, in His sovereignty, has selected some and called them unto Himself. The others He passed over and left them in their sin and corruption. By passing over them, he gave them up to the lusts of their own hearts and will judge them according to their deeds willing done. Is that so hard a pill to swallow? If it is, how will you ever get Romans 9 down the gullet?

"As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated. What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid. For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion. So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy...Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will? Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus? Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour? What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction: And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory, Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?" Romans 9

"What is the point of evangelizing, if it is already decided who is to be saved?" Two reasons. First, God has commanded us to preach the gospel to every creature. Someone criticized Spurgeon for offering the gospel to all men because according to Spurgeon's Calvinistic beliefs, only the elect could respond to the call of the gospel. He replied that if someone could show him who the elect are, he would limit his appeals of repentance to them. Since we don't know who the elect are, we must preach to all men. With the exception of John Wesley and William Booth, both Godly and exceptional Christians, there have been relatively few notable evangelists in church history. Most of the great evangelists were strongly Calvinistic.

Second, God has appointed the individuals who will be saved ("According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love" Eph 1:4) as well as the means by which they will be saved. "...it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe." 1 Cor 1:21

"if a person is starving or in need, God has put him in that position, so there is no need to do anything about it." Again, this is a straw man. Calvinists teach good works galore as does the Bible. We are commanded to do good works. Calvin said that faith alone saves, but the faith that saves is not alone. "Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works." Titus 2:14

"Groups and Nationalities began to see themselves as "Chosen by God". Other peoples, not being so "chosen", could be treated harshly." I am not sure where you got this from, but its kind of silly. Do you believe that your church has people who are chosen by God? Do you believe that the local Bible denying, sin-loving congregation is filled with God's children? I doubt it. Yet your Bible believing church is not out their persecuting the apostates are you? We all see our churches as right, as God's people. Yet that does not lead automatically lead to us treating others harshly. We should do good to those who hate us and be a blessing to those with whom we disagree. "Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven." Matthew 5:16

Have all Calvinists behaved well in history? No, but that is beside the point. Neither have all Arminians. Any church or theological system is a mixed bag containing both wheat and tares. Calvinists believe they are right about their beliefs just as you believe you are right about yours. But Calvinists do not teach that Calvinists are THE Chosen People. God has many non-Calvinists in His fold, I am sure.

You say, "our deeds, (or works) are vitally important., not to earn one's salvation, but an after product of one's salvation and God's loving Grace." You sound like a pure Calvinist here. I guess the difference between us here is that you do not see faith or repentance as a work and I do. But either way, you have not answered my question about how dead men can exercise faith or repentance.

See you for now.

[Guest swampfox]

"I also give credit to Jesus Christ, because without him, and his Grace, I would have nothing to believe, no reason or hope to repent, and no means to persevere, without him."

Come on Buckee. You have free will, unhindered by sin or corruption. Sure you could persevere on your own.

[buckee]

"I also give credit to Jesus Christ, because without him, and his Grace, I would have nothing to believe, no reason or hope to repent, and no means to persevere, without him."

Come on Buckee. You have free will, unhindered by sin or corruption. Sure you could persevere on your own.

Now your putting words in my mouth. I never once said I was unhindered by sin and corruption. I was spiritually dead in my sin before I came to know Jesus as my savior, and am still hindered by sin and corruption, however I am no longer it's slave. I may stumble, but I do not fall, and I give God all the glory for that..

[johnf]

So, what does it take.

If we are to conclude, which I don't, that you can lose your salvation, what does it take. Is there a magic number of sins, is there a special sin that puts you over the top. What exactly do you have to do to not be saved anymore. I mean, I'm a pretty good guy, but what if taking more mints at the Chinese Restaurant than I think I need will put me over the edge. If it's just one sin then how would anyone get to heaven. Say Billy Graham sees a hot chick driving a car, lusts after her for .005 seconds then crashes and dies. Does he go to **** because his last thought was lustful?

Give me the answer so that I can avoid the fate you believe I have.

[Guest Turkey Fife]

asdf

Seriously? Youre really reaching for that one.

Seriously???You bet! I did not see you PROVE he was not Baptized.

You know, he did not have John's Baptism?

You are the one who said he was not Baptized so PROVE it.

I am willing to addmit I can PROVE he was. However, you said he WASN"T so you must PROVE it.

[preacherman]

There have been a lot of things said in this thread that honestly have made me stop and scratch my head as to what you mean and actually what you believe. Honestly, I told my wife last night that after reading several of the things that have been said in the last few “threads” concerning the church and the total arguing and slander and such, that I can honestly sometimes really understand why people just worship in the woods.

For instance, just on the 5th page…………..Swampfox, in post #66 you said that “Perserverence of the Saints” is the doctrine that is commonly known as “Eternal Security” or “Once Saved, Always Saved”. That is totally false. Perserverence of the Saints is a statement that is used commonly among religious circles to define a belief that a person has the potential to “forfeit their faith” not “lose your salvation” as some have stated as well.

Then, you have Turkeyfife still screaming about “baptism” and how that everyone has to be baptized in order to go to heaven. Still scratching my head as to what this has to do with the original question about “eternal security”. Even asked for someone, Jeramie, I believe to prove that the theif on the cross was not baptized. To that, I say, prove to me that you have been saved. If you say that you have been saved, then I would take it by faith that you have. Like I take it by faith that the theif on the cross was not baptized. Would have been kind of hard for them to take him off the cross alive and baptize him and then put him back up there. And don’t believe that someone took him to the water and baptized him after he was dead! You have caused great confusion in this religious section since you have been here. And the last time I checked, the Bible does state that God is not the author of confusion. So, no matter how hard you try to convince everyone else that you are right and they are wrong…………my Brother, you are doing nothing more than pushing several………including me…………away from ever listening to anything that you say.

John F………….we know you believe in eternal security…………..you have stated that in your posts. But you quoted two verses of scripture that some state as “pertinent” scriptures to a “free will” doctrine. Like you stated in post #63 do not believe that salvation is easily done away with. I do not believe that it is “one sin”………….God’s grace is too strong for that. But I do believe that we have to be careful with the way that we live.

One said that “Eternal Security is a dangerous doctrine” and to this, I would say, “I agree!” And the reason being………….being a full time minister………….dealing with people and their souls every day………it gives some the excuse that just because I prayed some prayer or shook the preachers hand or was baptized in a certain stream or joined a church…………..that when I die I am going to heaven regardless of the way that I live on the face of this earth! According to scripture…………I just can’t see this.

Now, does that mean that I don’t believe that we can have assurance? Does that mean that I believe that we are living with one foot in h e l l and one foot on a banana peel? Heaven’s no! I John teaches that we can have great assurance very plainly. But I do believe, according to scripture that we must be careful of how we live and what we say that we believe in. We have to be very careful of how that we interpret scripture……………..because remember what Revelation 22:19, “And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book”

[johnf]

If the thief had been baptised by John the baptist it would not have been a redeeming baptism whether there is baptism by water or not. John himself says that the baptism of Christ will NOT be of water. So then,was he baptised? Yes the thief was baptised with the Holy Spirit and Fire, just as John said would happen. Notice John did not say repent and be saved, or justified or anything. On the contrary, John clearly states that Jesus' baptism, the one that matters, will not be water and will be the baptism that change the status of ones soul. Christs' baptism will be with the Holy spirit and will claim souls.

So regardless of whether the theif was baptised by John it wouldn't have matterd. If he indeed had been baptised then it still wouldn't matter because had he repented like John was preaching, he wouldn't be dead on a cross three years later.

Matthew 3

John the Baptist Prepares the Way

1In those days John the Baptist came, preaching in the Desert of Judea 2and saying, "Repent, for the kingdom of heaven is near." 3This is he who was spoken of through the prophet Isaiah:

"A voice of one calling in the desert,

'Prepare the way for the Lord,

make straight paths for him.' "[a]

4John's clothes were made of camel's hair, and he had a leather belt around his waist. His food was locusts and wild honey. 5People went out to him from Jerusalem and all Judea and the whole region of the Jordan. 6Confessing their sins, they were baptized by him in the Jordan River.

7But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees coming to where he was baptizing, he said to them: "You brood of vipers! Who warned you to flee from the coming wrath? 8Produce fruit in keeping with repentance. 9And do not think you can say to yourselves, 'We have Abraham as our father.' I tell you that out of these stones God can raise up children for Abraham. 10The ax is already at the root of the trees, and every tree that does not produce good fruit will be cut down and thrown into the fire. 11"I baptize you with[b] water for repentance. But after me will come one who is more powerful than I, whose sandals I am not fit to carry. He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and with fire. 12His winnowing fork is in his hand, and he will clear his threshing floor, gathering his wheat into the barn and burning up the chaff with unquenchable fire."

[Guest Turkey Fife]

asdf

We have to be very careful of how that we interpret scripture……………..because remember what Revelation 22:19, “And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book”

Interesting Preacherman that the very vs. you quote to teach you can't add are take away for the scriptures.....Teaches that one can lose their part of Heaven....Interesting, Very Interesting:D