should it really matter-or does it?

[wtnhunt]

Recent sermon at a church we visited kind of got me to thinking some outside of what the preacher probably wanted those listening to think. The sermon was good, and I agreed for the most part with his message, but it kind of struck me in a way when he got to a point on encouraging newly found members, or on outreaching to people who are visiting or even to other people in the community. The point he made was that those who do not appear as Christians should be welcomed to their church and made to feel like they belong. He even mentioned something to the effect that the person with the torn jeans, shirt with a logo that may not seem as a Christian might wear should not be shunned but should instead be welcomed with open arms. On that point I agree holeheartedly, however the preacher went on and got to a point that he said we can change those people to look more like us as they become more like us from the inside out . Not sure of any other way to take that than as exactly as it is literally. Does appearance "to look like us" have any significance? I mean really what does it matter how a person appears or if that appearance changes, and what does this type of message really mean to a congregation to think, " to change someone to look like us?" Why would anyone want to change someone to LOOK more like them, is there some sort of description for what a Christian is supposed to look like that people know, or is there some sort of written known description of a modern day Christians appearance? I understand that was not the entire point of his message, but still seems there are expectations of what and how people, even some who claim to be Christian people, view how they think Christians should be. Is that not in a way judgemental on what type of expectations people have?

Seems another expectation is for members to faithfully be at church every Sunday, in some cases, the expectations are that to be a "good Christian" you need to attend all the services and functions that pertain to you. Is it really right for those to question why, when, where and how many times you feel the need to have fellowship? Why should someone else determine how much fellowship another person needs, and is it right for them to question. Seems kind of judgemental in a way to me:(. After all, when it gets right down to it, none of us can know what is truly in a persons heart, however God does know us all and that is all that matters right. So as in this case of this sermon is it really right to expect someone to change their appearance to think they have become a Christian or to think because a person is not in church everytime someone else thinks they should be that they are not a good Christian or because they may not be just like us they are not really a Christian?

[Dawg]

The Word of God does tell us to dress "modestly" not "modernly". I don't think we need to make them look like "us" but rather show them that it is important to look differently than the "world". Afterall the meaning of church is "a called out assembly". To someone a three piece suit might be modest but to someone else a nice pair of slacks and a collard shirt might be modest. The important thing to remember is that we have to be seperate from the world. And to me that is being seperate with and by everything we do.

[buckee]

I totally understand your concern William. I'd feel the same way as you if I heard that.

Maybe he mis-spoke, and was talking about the shirt with a logo that may not seem as a Christian might wear, not necessarily the tattered jeans. There are a lot of logos out there, that would be totally unfitting for a Christian to wear.

Personally, I wouldn't dress up in a suit to go the church. I want to be me, when I go, and I'm not interested in trying to impress anyone by the way I dress.

I don't think the Lord has a preference for slacks, suit-pants or blue-jeans.

"to look like us" I guess my next question is, how do us look?

[wtnhunt]

Maybe he mis-spoke, and was talking about the shirt with a logo that may not seem as a Christian might wear, not necessarily the tattered jeans. There are a lot of logos out there, that would be totally unfitting for a Christian to wear.

Nope Steve, he was on that subject long enough I am pretty sure I understood him clearly in what he was saying. Some of the comments he made about people changing on the inside and them later changing on the outside(appearance) were pretty straight forward and I dont think it was aimed just at the logo shirts.

"to look like us" I guess my next question is, how do us look?

Like I said I did agree with most of what he said, but in what he said about changing those who do not look like us. Left me wondering this same question you made here:confused:.

Guess my philosophy is kind of so what if a person does not look like what you think they should look like. At least they are there, and a good chance if they are not concerned about what others think of what they are wearing that they are there more so for the right reasons.

[johnf]

It seems your preacher has a bit of a carnal view of Christianity. It's not what is on the outside that matters. I've known very devout Christians that appeared rough as a cob. Now don't get me wrong. I think we should look our best at church, but that is not the most important thing. My best is probably not what your best is, that is the important part. If we are doing for the lord what we should, he will see our best and what your pastor sees doesn't matter.

[wtnhunt]

It seems your preacher has a bit of a carnal view of Christianity. It's not what is on the outside that matters. I've known very devout Christians that appeared rough as a cob. Now don't get me wrong. I think we should look our best at church, but that is not the most important thing. My best is probably not what your best is, that is the important part.

First of all, not my preacher John. This was at a church we went to as visitors, and the preacher was a guest preacher at that. This was a fairly large church, and it currently does not have a regular preacher.

Secondly, I am of the impression that come as you are to worship means just that, there should not be any underlying thoughts by a pastor/preacher or ANY of his congregation that they can or need to change those who do not for whatever reason appear as them or as they would like. Think that message may be in a way telling people it is ok to be judgemental of those who do not appear as you.

Dont get me wrong, I could certainly see and fully agree with the broader portion of his message about being open to all and not turning away anyone who seeks to worship, but at the same time I simply cannot agree with the premise behind that portion of his message in regards to changing others. I thought it was pretty odd honestly that he went off in that direction. Man can lead other men to faith, showing someone God's love and letting their faith change them is the only way though in my opinion. I do not believe man can on his own truly change another mans faith no matter how hard you try, it takes that one on one relationship between each and every one of us with God himself, which can only be led to. After all, if you change someones appearance to look like you, how do you really know that they dont just look like you, and what good has that really accomplished? I think there is a difference in leading someone to faith and attempting to change someone.

[johnf]

I agree with that 100% wtnhunt. I guess what I'm saying is that it seems to me that someone of faith (one who is saved) should know that they should appear respectful of the Lords day celibration. If that is an old pair of overalls and work boots, then that's what it should be. My respect that I give to the Lord will be different then yours, buckee's, jeremie's or anyone elses. It will not be better or worse in any way. It will be different. It will be mine. If we feel we need to change someones appearance in church maybe we should be looking at our own hearts, not thier clothes.

Sorry I missed the part about the Pastor not being yours.