What about the indians??

[Missilelock]

Andrea brought up a good point in another thread.= What about the people so remote that theey have never heard of Jesus?? Its a question I have pondered some.

Today we live under the New Covenant, where by Jesus provided us the meas to be reconcild with the Father.

In the old Testament, I am sure some of Gods chosen went to heaven also, although I am less clear as to his criteria for judgement.

What about the people of nomadic tribes- or for instance the american indians who had been born since the new covenant. Knowing how much God loves all of his creation, I cant imagine him just sending them all to****.- neither can I imagine them worshiping God in heaven???

What do you all think??? Lane

[johnf]

There are two theories on that one that I've heard. I've been told there is scriptural backing and seems I have read it before, but can't find it right now.

Theory #1

Those people will be resurrected during the 1K year reign under the 144K Jews and will be given the opportunity to hear and accept or reject the gospel.

Theory #2

That God's creation is evident to all who will see it and they will be forgiven of their sins by their faith in a creator who's name they do not know.

I neither accept nor reject either of these theories. Both did have scriptural backing, but I can't seem to find it. Maybe one of the preacher guys will know.

[Guest swampfox]

Johnf,

I am not a preacher guy, but I will take a stab at answering. As to option 1, I do not believe there will be any redemption in the grave. We will be judged by our beliefs and actions in this life. I do not see any Biblical evidence for a chance to repent and be justified after death.

"And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment" Hebrews 9:27

"Whosoever therefore shall confess me before men, him will I confess also before my Father which is in heaven. But whosoever shall deny me before men, him will I also deny before my Father which is in heaven. " Matthew 10:32-33

God has given a sufficient testimony of His character to all men through nature so that all men are without excuse.

"For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;

19: Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.

20: For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:

21: Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened."

Romans 1

All men have sinned and have merited eternal punishment for their sins against the testimony of nature and their own conscience. God has chosen some to whom He has revealed Jesus' name. He has granted these chosen ones repentance and faith and these will be saved. These saved ones will come from all ages, tongues, and tribes. The others he has passed over, leaving them in their sin.

"Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved." Acts 4:12

These are hard truths to swallow for some people. Some find it hard to reconcile our humanistic notion of justice with the Bible's teaching on who will be saved. The exclusivity of Christ is galling to this age of political correctness and inclusivity. Some even accuse God of being unjust unless He gives all men an equal shot at salvation. However, God will not be sitting at man's bar of justice. Rather we will be sitting at His.

"Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?

21: Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?

22: What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:

23: And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory" Romans 9

[Guest Andrea]

HOLD UP...swampfox, if I am reading you correctly, you are saying that God has chosen SOME for salvation? The Bible clearly states that ANYONE who believes and confesses that Jesus died on the cross for their sins and repents will have eternal salvation.

I think the Jehovah Witnesses are the ones that believe that only a chosen few will gain access to Heaven.

[Guest Andrea]

BTW, I was always told that the Indians KNEW that there was a God. They called Him the Great Spirit. But that's about it. I am not sure how their salvation plays out. Very good question!!!

Here's an even DEEPER question:

The entire Bible takes place in the Middle East. (If you are Mormon, then you also believe it takes place in America too)

So if the Indians were the FIRST TRUE Americans, then how did they get here? Crossed over from Alaska? Then surely they had knowledge of Jesus Christ, right?

[popgun]

I think that Missilelock could be referring to some of our beliefs in "The Age of Accountability"

The Bible tells us that even if an infant or child has not committed personal sin, all people, including infants and children, are guilty before God because of inherited and imputed sin. Inherited sin is that which is passed on from our parents. In Psalm 51:5, David wrote, "I was brought forth in iniquity, and in sin my mother conceived me." David recognized that even at conception, he was a sinner. The very sad fact that infants sometimes die demonstrates that even infants are impacted by Adam’s sin, since physical and spiritual death were the results of Adam's original sin.

Each person, infant or adult, stands guilty before God; each person has offended the holiness of God. The only way that God can be just and at the same time declare a person righteous is for that person to have received forgiveness by faith in Christ. Christ is the only way. John 14:6 records what Jesus said, "I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father, but through Me." Also, Peter stated in Acts 4:12, "there is salvation in no one else; for there is no other name under heaven that has been given among men, by which we must be saved." Salvation is an individual choice.

What about babies and young children who never reach the ability to make this individual choice? The “age of accountability” is a concept that teaches those who die before reaching the “age of accountability” are automatically saved, by God’s grace and mercy. The “age of accountability” is a belief that God saves all those who die before reaching the ability to make a decision for or against Christ. Thirteen is the most common number given for the age of accountability based on the Jewish custom that a child becomes an adult at the age of 13. However, the Bible gives no direct support to the age of 13 always being the age of accountability. It likely varies from child to child. A child has passed the age of accountability once he or she is capable of making a faith decision for or against Christ.

With the above in mind, also consider the following: Christ's death is presented as sufficient for all of mankind. First John 2:2 says Jesus "is the propitiation for our sins; and not for ours only, but also for those of the whole world." This verse is clear that Jesus' death was sufficient for all sins, not just the sins of those who specifically have come to Him in faith. The fact that Christ's death was sufficient for all sin would allow the possibility of God applying that payment to those who were never capable of believing.

The one passage that seems to identify with this topic more than any other is 2 Samuel 12:21-23. The context of these verses is that King David committed adultery with Bathsheba, with a resulting pregnancy. The prophet Nathan was sent by the Lord to inform David that because of his sin, the Lord would take the child in death. David responded to this by grieving, mourning, and praying for the child. But, once the child was taken, David's mourning ended. David's servants were surprised to hear this. They said to King David, "What is this thing that you have done? While the child was alive, you fasted and wept; but when the child died, you arose and ate food." David's response was, "While the child was still alive, I fasted and wept; for I said, ‘Who knows, the LORD may be gracious to me, that the child may live.’ But now he has died; why should I fast? Can I bring him back again? I shall go to him, but he will not return to me." David's response can be seen as an argument that those who cannot believe are safe in the Lord. David said that he could go to the child, but that he could not bring the child back to him. Also, and just as important, David seemed to be comforted over this. In other words, David seemed to be saying that he would once again see the child (in heaven), though he could not bring him back.

Though the Bible leaves open the possibility, the one problem with saying that God applies Christ's payment for sin to those who can't believe is that the Bible does not specifically say that He does this. Therefore, this is a subject for which we should not be adamant or dogmatic. We can, however, be dogmatic about the fact that God ALWAYS does what is right.

Knowing the love and grace of God, God applying Christ’s death to those who cannot believe would seem consistent with His character. It is our position that God applies Christ's payment for sin to young children and those who are mentally handicapped, since they were not mentally capable of understanding their sinful state and their need for the Savior. Of this we are certain, that God is loving, holy, merciful, just, and gracious. Whatever He does, it is ALWAYS right and good.

(The above paragraphs were copied and pasted, and I do not take credit for writing them.)

Now...It seems to me that those who were never taught the way to salvation, such as the early American Indians, would have fit into this category with the small children and those mentally incapable of understanding.

Some people reach this age of accountability, (understanding) at a young age and others could be quite up in years, or may never reach that age at all.

I do believe that there is no mercy above or equal to God's mercy.

....popgun

[buckee]

I'll try a stab at this.

" The secret things belong to the Lord our God, but the things revealed belong to us and to our children forever, that we may follow all the words of this law."

Paul tells us that those who have never heard of the law are not imputed sin under the law.

Paul also tells us that those who follow the law (e.g., practicing Jews) will be judged by the law.

I believe that the people who have never heard of the law are judged by the law of God which He has placed into their hearts. But if they have heard of Christ, and not sought his grace, then they will be judged accordingly.

For when Gentiles who do not have the Law do instinctively the things of the Law, these, not having the Law, are a law to themselves, in that they show the work of the Law written in their hearts, their conscience bearing witness, and their thoughts alternately accusing or else defending them, on the day when, according to my gospel, God will judge the secrets of men through Christ Jesus. (Romans 2:14-16)

The God of the Bible is a God of justice, not some capricious being who casts people into **** on a whim, depending on the mood he is in that day. Isaiah tells us that 'the Lord is a God of justice'.

He is also 'the compassionate and gracious God, slow to anger, abounding in love and faithfulness'.

There is no question that what he does on that final day will be fair, even though we may not understand all of his thoughts. We can be like Abraham in front of Sodom and confidently assert, 'will not the Judge of all the earth do right?'

Another example that the judgment of God is based on what we know and what we have been given can be seen in a warning by James:

Let not many of you become teachers, my brethren, knowing that as such we shall incur a stricter judgment. (James 3:1)

I think we can all shake at reading this one, including myself.

In other words, those who know the gospel, study it, and teach it will be under stricter judgment, since they have the ability of guide others, or lead them astray.

Many folks don't know the full revelation of the gospel, none of us are totally ignorant of him. 'For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities , his eternal power and divine nature , have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse.'

The created universe speaks clearly of a Creator and it took rebellious humans thousands of years to come up with a half-decent explanation(theory) of how things might have arisen without any intelligent designer, in this neo-Darwinian age we live in.

The psalmist exclaims that 'the heavens declare the glory of God' and we really have to be quite blinded by naturalist and liberal philosophies, before we can take a walk in the country or gaze at the night sky and not see something of God's creative flair reflected there.

Jesus, in the parable of the Master and the slaves (Luke 12:41-48) talked about the difference in judgment between those who know the will of God vs. those who do not know:

"And that slave who knew his master's will and did not get ready or act in accord with his will, shall receive many lashes, but the one who did not know it, and committed deeds worthy of a flogging, will receive but few. And from everyone who has been given much shall much be required; and to whom they entrusted much, of him they will ask all the more. (Luke 12:47-48)

Then there is the witness of our consciences. Swampfox might disagree, but, though defective since the fall of adam, they still function and give us a sense of a moral order, a morality that we generally know to be correct, even though we fail to live up to it.

Paul, in his treatment of God's righteous judgment, tells us that 'Gentiles, who do not have the law...show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness'.

Therefore there is no-one that is totally ignorant of God. All of us have some knowledge of him and will be judged according to that. God 'will give to each person according to what he has done', not according to what he had no opportunity to do.

You can see this principle at work in the pages of the Old Testament. We know that there will be thousands of Jews and Gentiles who lived before the time of Jesus yet will still be part of that 'great multitude that no one could count, from every nation, tribe, people and language'

Jesus described Abraham, Isaac and Jacob as feasting in the kingdom of heaven , while heaven is described as being at Abraham's side.

They clearly didn't know the whole gospel message, but there are a few verses that indicate they may have known more than is recorded in Scripture. We are told that Moses 'regarded disgrace for the sake of Christ as of greater value than the treasures of Egypt'.

How exactly did he view the coming Messiah ? and how much did he understand what he would do? We don't know.

Many Christians say that all those who die without faith in Christ will be relegated to spend eternity in ****,( even if they have never heard the gospel). I think scripture suggests otherwise. It suggests that we are judged on the basis of what we know and how we act upon it.

This is not any sort of ecumenical theology or "all ways lead to God."

Those who have heard the gospel of Jesus Christ and have refused to believe have rejected Him, and, as such, will fall under the condemnation of God, because they have rejected His provision for our disobedience.

Atheists are still without excuse7 in rejecting God. Those who perpetrate evil, even without the knowledge of the gospel, will likewise be condemned, since they have violated their God-given conscience.

In the same way, those who play the "religion game" of going to church on Sunday, but living apart from a relationship with God, will be condemned.

I think most of us Christians can agree that, other religions are distortions of the truth, but still contain some truth. If by the guidance of the Holy Spirit a person looks through that distorted lense, glimpses a dim reflection of reality and responds accordingly, it doesn't validate that false religion as truth, but simply the truth that lies buried underneath. God will be the judge.

That doesn't mean by a long shot that there is no need for evangelism.

The Ninevites were clearly prepared to respond to God, but they didn't know much about him. So it took the preaching of Jonah to turn them to repentance and faith.

And the Ethiopian eunuch, even though he was reading the prophecy of Isaiah, needed to have it explained to him by Philip before he could see it was really pointing to Christ.

Our "work" as Christians is to hold up the light of the gospel, bringing true teaching about who God is and how we may know him. The Gospel is God's chosen means of disturbing the complacent, the spiritually blind, and spiritually death , bringing conviction of sin and calling men to himself. Those who hear his call are in a far better position to seek after God for mercy and forgiveness.

After all, Jesus promises that those who do seek after God will find him, but, it's pretty clear that this wasn't the case for the Old Testament characters. It's possible then that these people can live without any assurance of forgiveness and yet are forgiven by God through the atoning death of Jesus, after casting themselves on God for his mercy. Who knows but God. All we know is that he is merciful and just.

'It is mine to avenge', says the Lord, 'I will repay'.

Everyone has enough knowledge of God in order to seek after him but the general situation is that men do not, even though their consciences condemn them.

The Bible says that 'some mens consciences have been sered', so they no longer even have one, but that is not all men.

God is all-loving, all-knowing, all-powerful, merciful and just, so he must have a solution for those who have never heard about his final revelation in Jesus Christ.

[johnf]

That's what I was going to say buckee, but I didn't want to look like a know it all.

[wtnhunt]

Good question to which I have given quite a bit of thought and asked about before, especially at some point when it hit me about innocent babies in regards to this topic when a co worker lost his newborn grandchild back a few years ago.

Actually have had some pretty interesting conversation with a preacher on a similar topic, but it was more so geared towards children and people who were not in places where they had good opportunities to learn about Jesus and faith. The preacher I spoke with told me that the children and babies who were of too young of an age would rely on their parents faith, I challenged him on that and he quoted some scriptures, but I did not write them down and do not for the life of me recall where it was he said he got that from. I just cannot believe our God a forgiving father would condemn an innocent child based on their parents faith or lack of, however that is exactly what the man told me and he was very firm in that view and would not budge any on his view. I think his comments on those who never had an opportunity to have a chance to know Jesus was something to the effect that they were born naturally of sin or maybe he even said evil and that they could not be good through faith or saved or something like that and that there was no place in God's kingdom for them due to their lacking faith and not being saved.

I think that his view was somewhat twisted and I do not agree, but it was interesting none the less. That preacher was a pentecostal who said he had also preached in some baptist churches, and I had several conversations with him as he was taking my place where I was working at that time. Some of the conversations with him were good and I agreed with some of what he would say, some left me wondering how he arrived at his thoughts though and I simply could not agree. I do know that some pentecostals feel that the man is responsible for his spouse and whether or not she will be saved is dependant on him, guess that kind of goes along with this premise of the parents of children relying on the faith of their parents.

It is interesting to hear others perspectives and to think why they think how they do, but I kind of believe along these lines:

The fact that Christ's death was sufficient for all sin would allow the possibility of God applying that payment to those who were never capable of believing.

While I am not sure what will happen with those people, I do know our God is forgiving and will do what is right. Think the posts by both popgun and buckee are kind of similar to my thoughts.

I think the Jehovah Witnesses are the ones that believe that only a chosen few will gain access to Heaven.

Far as the "meek inheriting the earth", I think Andrea is correct that is a Jehovah witness viewpoint, and from what I have experienced, they are convinced that there will be a number of 144,000 I think it is that will take their places here on this earth as God's chosen people. Funny thing is that if you ever ask one of those folks if they believe that there is not already 144,000 who have been chosen, they will not be able to come up with a good answer. I have asked a few that very question on the door step.

[Guest swampfox]

Andrea says, "God has chosen SOME for salvation? The Bible clearly states that ANYONE who believes and confesses that Jesus died on the cross for their sins and repents will have eternal salvation." I agree that anyone who believes and confesses and repents will have eternal salvation. Yet the Bible teaches God is sovereign over who is saved. Repentance , faith, confession are gifts of God's grace given to some undeserving sinners and not to others for reasons known only to God. The call of the gospel is to be preached to all men, offering salvation to everyone. Yet only the elect will respond.

This is what the Pilgrims, Puritans, and our Founding Fathers believed. This is what the Reformers believed. This is what the founders of the Presbyterian Church, the Anglican Church, the Lutheran Church, most of the American and British Baptist Churches, and the Congregational Churches believed in previous centuries. Great men like Jonathan Edwards, Charles Spurgeon, George Whitefield, John Patton, EM McCheyne, John Bunyan, David Brainerd, William Tyndale, Matthew Henry, John Newton, etc., ect. believed.

"The LORD did not set his love upon you, nor choose you, because ye were more in number than any people; for ye were the fewest of all people: But because the LORD loved you, and because he would keep the oath which he had sworn unto your fathers, hath the LORD brought you out with a mighty hand, and redeemed you out of the house of bondmen, from the hand of Pharaoh king of Egypt." Deut 7

"The king's heart is in the hand of the LORD, as the rivers of water: he turneth it whithersoever he will." Prov 21:1

"I have manifested thy name unto the men which thou gavest me out of the world: thine they were, and thou gavest them me; and they have kept thy word. Now they have known that all things whatsoever thou hast given me are of thee. For I have given unto them the words which thou gavest me; and they have received them, and have known surely that I came out from thee, and they have believed that thou didst send me. I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for them which thou hast given me; for they are thine. And all mine are thine, and thine are mine; and I am glorified in them. And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are." John 17:6-11

"And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed." Acts 13:48

You say, "I think the Jehovah Witnesses are the ones that believe that only a chosen few will gain access to Heaven." All Christians believe that heaven is reserved for only a chosen few. I think that only Bible-denying liberals and Unitarian Universalists believe that all will be saved, except perhaps Hitler and George Bush.

"For many are called, but few are chosen." Matthew 22:14

"Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat: Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it." Matthew 7:13

I am pretty sure that where JW's differ from Christians on this point is that they say the number is fixed at 144,000.

Buckee says, "The God of the Bible is a God of justice, not some capricious being who casts people into **** on a whim, depending on the mood he is in that day." I agree.

Buckee says, "Then there is the witness of our consciences. Swampfox might disagree, but, though defective since the fall of adam, they still function and give us a sense of a moral order, a morality that we generally know to be correct, even though we fail to live up to it." I agree. Our conscience (con = with; science = knowledge) teaches us right from wrong, even after the fall. Yet we have the capacity to suppress our conscience and deny God his rightful place as Lord of our lives.

I guess the question boils down to, "Is there a back door into heaven whereby men can be saved apart from a personal committment to Jesus"? I don't think so. God is just and fair and he will do what is right. If he sent every one of us to ****, He would be just in doing so, "For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God." The Old Testament saints were saved through faith in Jesus Christ who they worshipped via the rites and ceremonies in the temple all of which were shaddows of Jesus and his cross. In the scripture I can see no "back door" into heaven apart from faith in the person and name of Jesus Christ.

Buckee you say, "Many Christians say that all those who die without faith in Christ will be relegated to spend eternity in ****,( even if they have never heard the gospel). I think scripture suggests otherwise. It suggests that we are judged on the basis of what we know and how we act upon it." I agree that we are judged on the basis of what we know and how we act. Yet those who have not repented and come to Christ by faith are doomed because they will be "judged on the basis of what we know and how we act." All man have acted wickedly and have failed to heed their conscience or the testimony of nature. If they had, perhaps they could be saved apart from Christ. But I believe the Bible teaches that none have done so.

[buckee]

Quote:

I think the Jehovah Witnesses are the ones that believe that only a chosen few will gain access to Heaven.

Far as the "meek inheriting the earth", I think Andrea is correct that is a Jehovah witness viewpoint, and from what I have experienced, they are convinced that there will be a number of 144,000 I think it is that will take their places here on this earth as God's chosen people. Funny thing is that if you ever ask one of those folks if they believe that there is not already 144,000 who have been chosen, they will not be able to come up with a good answer. I have asked a few that very question on the door step.

The Jehovah Witnesses have changed their doctrines on a few things over the years. They used to say that all JW's would be the 144,000 chosen by God to govern in God's new kingdom, but now that there are more than 144,000 of them, they say that the 144,000 have already been chosen from their flock, to govern in heaven, and the rest will, be the subjects.

They still won't back down on their false prophecies of Jesus reining on earth at this present time ever since (I forget the date). They obviously haven't taken a good look around at the earth these days, to say that.

Here's a link to all the false prophecies of the JW's.

Just way to much to copy and paste.

http://www.bible.ca/Jw-Prophecy.htm

I always invite them in to talk with them, but lately they stopped coming. It's not the first time this has happened. I think I get put on a "Nevermind this guy" list for a while, before someone else shows up.:(

I've even had them wipe their feet on my welcome mat, as they leave.

[wtnhunt]

The Jehovah Witnesses have changed their doctrines on a few things over the years.

That may very well be Steve, think the last ones we had come around here has been about 5 years ago.

[buckee]

I like these words of wisdom by the JW's

1943 "Man cannot by airplane or rockets or other means get above the air envelope which is about our earthly globe..."(The Truth Shall Make you Free, p. 285, 1943 edition)

[johnf]

I like these words of wisdom by the JW's

1943 "Man cannot by airplane or rockets or other means get above the air envelope which is about our earthly globe..."(The Truth Shall Make you Free, p. 285, 1943 edition)

1970 addendem ............"Uh, unless they really really want to, and try real hard. Thus sayeth we all.

[Guest swampfox]

false-prophecy is a serious matter

JW's say, "Man cannot by airplane or rockets or other means get above the air envelope which is about our earthly globe..."(The Truth Shall Make you Free, p. 285, 1943 edition)

Deut 13 says:

If there arise among you a prophet, or a dreamer of dreams, and giveth thee a sign or a wonder,

2: And the sign or the wonder come to pass, whereof he spake unto thee, saying, Let us go after other gods, which thou hast not known, and let us serve them;

3: Thou shalt not hearken unto the words of that prophet, or that dreamer of dreams: for the LORD your God proveth you, to know whether ye love the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul.

4: Ye shall walk after the LORD your God, and fear him, and keep his commandments, and obey his voice, and ye shall serve him, and cleave unto him.

5: And that prophet, or that dreamer of dreams, shall be put to death; because he hath spoken to turn you away from the LORD your God, which brought you out of the land of Egypt, and redeemed you out of the house of bondage, to thrust thee out of the way which the LORD thy God commanded thee to walk in. So shalt thou put the evil away from the midst of thee.

[Guest justin11987]

In the bible god clearly states that, he does not judge the people who do not know him, but he does judge the people who do. The indians along with many other people will have their chance to know god when they are resurrected from the dead and gods word will be opened to them and they can either reject it or follow god. What kind of god would he be if he sent people who never knew him to the lake of fire. He is a god of love and mercy, he wants every one who ever lived to have eternal life but when god calls them to his word they haft to do their part. Its not a free ride.

[BamaTrae]

Justin said:

In the bible god clearly states that, he does not judge the people who do not know him, but he does judge the people who do.

Where in the Bible does God say this? It is true that God doesn't want anyone to perish 2 Peter 3:9 - "The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some count slackness, but is longsuffering toward us, not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance."

But that Holy desire does not eliminate the truth of His Holy justice.

The answer is clear from Romans 1:18-20 - "For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them. For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse."

God makes a way, who knows maybe it is through you that He is trying to speak to a family member, or a co-worker? That's why the great commission is so important. God has given Christians the ministry of reconciliation, 2 Corinthians 5:18.

Trae

P.S. - I haven't read many of the responses yet, but just posted this in response to Justin.

[Leo]

I don't know. And that's OK.

Accepting things that you don't know takes faith.

Only accepting things you know about is a belief.

This is the paradox. You have to know you have faith to believe but faith is based on things you cannot know.

Faced with what I don't know I have faith God does.

[Dawg]

Andrea says, "God has chosen SOME for salvation? The Bible clearly states that ANYONE who believes and confesses that Jesus died on the cross for their sins and repents will have eternal salvation." I agree that anyone who believes and confesses and repents will have eternal salvation. Yet the Bible teaches God is sovereign over who is saved. Repentance , faith, confession are gifts of God's grace given to some undeserving sinners and not to others for reasons known only to God. The call of the gospel is to be preached to all men, offering salvation to everyone. Yet only the elect will respond.

This is what the Pilgrims, Puritans, and our Founding Fathers believed. This is what the Reformers believed. This is what the founders of the Presbyterian Church, the Anglican Church, the Lutheran Church, most of the American and British Baptist Churches, and the Congregational Churches believed in previous centuries. Great men like Jonathan Edwards, Charles Spurgeon, George Whitefield, John Patton, EM McCheyne, John Bunyan, David Brainerd, William Tyndale, Matthew Henry, John Newton, etc., ect. believed.

This I will have to disagree with. The Word of God says that He will in no wise cast those away who come to Him. Not to cause any strife here, but it seems that you put more faith and trust in what the "reformers" and other men taught rather than the Word of God. As far as the other scriptures that you qouted, I think we must first look at who it was being addressed to first. "Many are called, but only a few are chosen" was simply addressed to the disciples. Again, Gods Word says He will in no wise cast them away that come to Him. Also, the scripture that you used about the wide gate and the narrow gate. Compared to the rest of the world, those who are Christians are but a few.

Sorry but I don't believe that God only gives salvation to those whom He wants. The Word also states that He wishes all would come to repentance.

Just my 2 cents.

[Guest Andrea]

I fully agree with hogdawg, well said!! ----------the Whomp-whomp-whomp woman.

[Guest swampfox]

hogdog says,

"The Word of God says that He will in no wise cast those away who come to Him...Gods Word says He will in no wise cast them away that come to Him...The Word also states that He wishes all would come to repentance." You hit the nail on the head. God will cast out none that come to Him. And Jesus said, "No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him." John 6:44

God decides who will come. Salvation is all of grace. If left to ourselves, we would all end up in ****. Thank God for choosing undeserving sinners like you and me for salvation.

God also wishes that there would be no murder. We can see this in the 10 commandments. Yet God allows wicked men to murder even though He wishes they would not. God, therefore, has 2 wills, a decretive will and a prescriptive will. In the first, He determines what will happen. In the latter, he gives us the rules and duties by which he expects us to live. Murder is against His prescriptive will, yet murder happens, so he must have decreed it. This does not make God responsible for the sins of men, because He still holds them accountable for their sin. "Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain" Acts 2:23

God planned the cross. God orchestrated that His son would be murdered, yet He holds the wicked men who crucified Him responsible for doing it. Strange to our carnal minds, I know. God cannot be the author of sin, nor can he tempt men to sin. James 1:13. When men sin, it is all their fault, not God's. They are not compelled to sin, but do so willingly. God cannot be blamed when men don't repent, they willingly refuse to repent so their sin is their own fault even though God is mysteriously behind it all planning every thing that comes to pass. The Scripture teaches that God controls whatsoever comes to pass. Even if a sparrow falls or a hair on our heads is out place, God knows and controls it. He even is sovereign over the free acts of men.

"But as for you, ye thought evil against me; but God meant it unto good, to bring to pass, as it is this day, to save much people alive." Gen 50:20.

Some folks speak of his perfect will and his permissive will. Same idea, that God has 2 wills. God does desire that all men come to repentance. He takes no pleasure in the death of the wicked. Yet some He has chosen to pass over and leave in their sin. Jesus said, "And ye will not come to me, that ye might have life." Many will not come. They are not drawn and thus they cannot and will not come to Jesus.

"According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will," Eph 1:4-5

These are controversial points. Understanding the relationship between God's foreknowledge, history, man's responsibility, free will, God's decrees, etc. is hard to grasp. I don't have a great grip on these things, but I am trying to understand them better. I hope I have not too badly butchered the reformed understanding of some of these things.

For more on this see the following Spurgeon sermon:

http://www.sermonaudio.com/sermoninfo.asp?SID=8160293628

You also said, "it seems that you put more faith and trust in what the "reformers" and other men taught rather than the Word of God." Not true. I hold the reformers and the other great men named in high esteem precisely because they put all their faith and trust in the teachings of Scripture. Oh that the church would once again return to the Scripture as the only rule of practice and faith. Get a copy of Dallimore's 2 volumes on George Whitefield and you will see what I mean. No matter where you stand in the theological debate, as long as you believe the Bible you will be blessed to read of such as man as Whitefield.

[ftgbowhunter]

swampfox gave the link

For more on this see the following Spurgeon sermon:

http://www.sermonaudio.com/sermoninfo.asp?SID=8160293628

The mans a cult dont listen to him.

[Dawg]

Swampfox says that God chooses who He wants to. How can this be? I understand that God is the one that draws us, but He can only do that when "we" are willing. If He chooses only who He wants, why did Jesus have to die? Couldn't God just pick out those whom He wants and bring them to heaven without Jesus having to die? If He only calls those who He wants then the Word contridicts(spelling?) itself when it says "forwhosoever will, let him come." Also, when it states that He wishes all would come to repentance, that would be false also, because how could they repent if He doesn't call them?

[BamaTrae]

Swampfox says that God chooses who He wants to. How can this be? I understand that God is the one that draws us, but He can only do that when "we" are willing. If He chooses only who He wants, why did Jesus have to die? Couldn't God just pick out those whom He wants and bring them to heaven without Jesus having to die? If He only calls those who He wants then the Word contridicts(spelling?) itself when it says "forwhosoever will, let him come." Also, when it states that He wishes all would come to repentance, that would be false also, because how could they repent if He doesn't call them?

Amen!

A. The Bible teaches predestination, but not Calvinistic Predestination:

1. Bible predestination is where God pre-determined, not the identity of the saved, but the character of the saved
   
2. I am not opposed to predestination, the Bible teaches it.

Consider this question:

What is foreknown by God in these Bible verses? A person’s personal Identity or a character, a purpose and a plan for those of the obedient character?

Ephesians 1:3-4

1 Corinthians 2:7

Romans 8:29-30

Clearly all these reference a plan that God had at the beginning, they reference a purpose for which man is to live, and they reference a type of person, not an individual.

B. God is not a respecter of persons: Acts 10:34; Rom 2:11-12; 1 Pe 1:17

C. God does not will that any perish but all be saved: Tit 2:11; 1 Ti 2:3-4; 2 Pe 3:9

D. Makes the Devil no enemy for the saved to worry about, if predestined 1 Pe 5:8 Why beware?

E. Our eternal destiny (heaven or ****) is based entirely upon personal choices we make based upon our own freewill. If we end up in ****, we can only blame ourselves!

Trae

[Guest swampfox]

Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ: According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will, To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved. Ephesians 1

And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose. For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren. Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified. What shall we then say to these things? If God be for us, who can be against us? He that spared not his own Son, but delivered him up for us all, how shall he not with him also freely give us all things? Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth. Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us. Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword? As it is written, For thy sake we are killed all the day long; we are accounted as sheep for the slaughter. Nay, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him that loved us. For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come, Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord. Romans 8

With numerous personal pronouns, these verses identify those whom God saves, the elect. These are not potential people or types of people, but actual people. Hence Paul could say that God has "predestinated us" and "chosen us." He did not say "chosen people like us" or "predestinated those like us." No, while we were yet sinners, God chose us.

It is not because we have a certain character that we are saved, but we are saved in spite of our evil character. And because God freely chose us and enables us, we live uprightly. Right living is the result of God's choice, not the cause of God's choice. Salvation is not earned, but given.