honest question about shooting fawns?

[dogdoc]

In a QDMA perspective it makes perfect sense in harvesting doe fawns. The problems arrises when the hunter isn't sure if it is a button buck or a doe fawn. Yes, button bucks will be taken and in many times it is an accident. However--if I was trying to thin does down the fawn doe would be my choice.

IMO never shoot a doe when it arrives by itself b/c there is a good chance it is a button buck. You need to make sure (if you care) that it isn't a button buck and that can be difficult at times.

todd

[Randy]

Letting fawns and buttons walk when you are trying to manage a property is a guaranteed path to mediocrity. The undersize deer are late drops (ie. born very late in the year) they are also primarily the offspring of does that come into their first estrous late in the season. Undersized momma = undersized fawn. These are not the deer you want breeding. These deer start life at a disadvantage and pass it on. The cycle degrades and gets worse and worse every year.

I'm sure there is SOME truth to this although, If you don't have an even buck to doe ratio, couldn't some of these doe get missed their first cycle? If so, is it possible that a mature doe could quite possible have a healthy fawn that could "amount to something" someday? I personally kill in the neighborhood of 6-8 doe a year. Between the three of us hunting 120 acres we usually kill right around a dozen adult doe a year. We are trying to even out the herd and don't have a whole lot of help from the neighbors. One neighbor said he wintered about 75 deer last winter, and that's on a couple hundred acres. I guess my opinion is, "give them a chance to grow up before deciding that they are inferior." JMHO!

[PotashRLS]

Between the three of us hunting 120 acres we usually kill right around a dozen adult doe a year. We are trying to even out the herd and don't have a whole lot of help from the neighbors. One neighbor said he wintered about 75 deer last winter, and that's on a couple hundred acres.

Kudos to you Randy for stepping up. You are doing the right thing and your neighbors are the reason we have continued years of Earn-A-Buck in the State of Wisconsin!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! 75 deer on that amount of acreage is too many and will literally damage your property over a number of years. Why not put them in the freezer for some darn good eating while creating a balanced deer herd in the process?

[wtnhunt]

The undersize deer are late drops (ie. born very late in the year) they are also primarily the offspring of does that come into their first estrous late in the season. Undersized momma = undersized fawn. These are not the deer you want breeding. These deer start life at a disadvantage and pass it on. The cycle degrades and gets worse and worse every year. Bucks that miss growing antlers their first fall never catch up. That's where two year old spikes come from and three year old four and six pointers.

Interesting theory, but around here it is very rare if ever that we see 2.5 year old spikes. It is not even that common that we see spikes, usually the spikes we do see are late born yearlings from the year before, and there are a few occasions we see fawns that have some antler growth if they were born early on. More often the yearlings we see have at least forks, have seen 1.5 year olds here on a few rare occasions with 7 and 8 points, but those were in years where the fawns dropped a bit earlier than normal in the previous year, likely those deer had more antler growing time and or had more nutrition going to the bone on their head as opposed to the bone in their body as they were further along in developement than the later born deer.

I would have to disagree that the youngins will never catch up concept as I see some flaws, matter of fact, James Kroll has had some pretty interesting information that he has put out on spikes and the notion "once a spike always a spike" that used to seem to be a common belief or really in my opinion a common misconception among some wildlife biologists, some of that research parallels this. Good nutrition and good genetics if they are there will show eventually, a deer in its second year will more than likely catch up when the nutrition is not all going towards the deer developing its body. Problem with a late born 1.5 year old that is still a spike, is that more likely he is still growing and biologically his nutrition is not going to his antlers but is instead going to his body as where an older deer will have more going to his antler development and sustaining. The idea that because a doe is born later in the year and as a result comes in later in the year and having later born fawns making her offspring inferior in some way really does not seem like it would hold true, when a deer is born has nothing to do with its genetic makeup. The cycle of the late born fawns that get bred late in subsequent years would likely also be more inline with the mature does in the area, so it is not likely that in following years they would continue to have fawns late for the duration of their lives.

[Guest Scottishhunter]

I would have to totally disagree with killing fawns, and for one it is illegal to do so in the UK. Mostly gamekeepers here kill the old ones (well they try to) as its the most humane way to do so. Dont get me wrong I love my venison but I have standards. I hope everyone else is the same. Besides fawns are cute and deserve a chance at life.

[Guest bigalt78]

the way i see it if its a deer and it walks by me its getting a arrow stuck in it i dont care if it just dropped out of the womb. i think its actually better for the herd when you shoot the small ones. if you are a head hunter and everybody that hunts around is the same way and everyone kills all the mature bucks what's the following years have in store in that spot because you wont have the mature buck's genetics in the deer to come i think shooting the small young deer for you meat every year is the way to go and keep the mature does around.

if its brown its down.........

[Adjam5]

Dont get me wrong I love my venison but I have standards. I hope everyone else is the same. Besides fawns are cute and deserve a chance at life.

Cute has NOTHING to do with how they taste and sound QDM decisions for the particular property.

If I had to hunt with the concern of that animals deserve a chance at life...well I might as quit hunting.

Your standards are not everyone elses. Many in the USA shoot whatever is legal and there is no harm or shame in being a successful hunter regardless of harvest.

All participating in this thread, if I may...are well seasoned hunters who who have 10-20 maybe more years under their belt with various weapons. We do not simply wish just to shoot any various deer anymore. We are looking to make sound management decisions for the properties we hunt, if we have that luxury, some hunt for meat and thats fine too. Some have limited time in the woods and have to make the most out of what steps out.

So much more deer biology info is available to us than our Dads and Gramps could ever dream of.

This is a GREAT thread and I wish a PRO could come on and put their 2cents in.

Awesome brainfood here.

[Randy]

There's some talk in here about 6 month olds having horns. While we do have an abundant number of 8-10 point 1 1/2 year olds, I don't know that i ever saw a 6 month old carrying horns? Maybe this is a down south thing??

[ladydiehard]

Some consider "nubs" to be horns. At least, some I have talked to do. In the south that is.

[Leo]

Here in the part of South Carolina I live in, the deer are definitely on a little different cycle. The does here actually start getting bred in September. The majority of them get bred in October and a few finally in November. Around the end of December our deer start loosing their horns. This is one of the big reasons our season here starts in August. By the last week of August nothing is in velvet anymore.

As a result of the early breeding we have the first fawn drop here in April. It's the bucks that are born then that sometimes develop some manner of sheddable button or spur horn. I am sure this does not happen everywhere but it does here. The late drops here occur in June and they lag behind the early ones substantially in size. They've got eight weeks of growing to catch up on. The late drop bucks are tiny 35 to 40 pound things. The doe fawns are about the same. The earliest born bucks weigh more than 60 pounds by the time the season kicks in. Still a tiny deer but they dwarf the late drops. Most 1 1/2 old bucks here weigh between 95 and 105lbs. The majority of them are indeed spikes. And I agree a spikes potential is wide open at that stage in the game. It is however practically impossible to tell the difference between a late drop spike that is almost 1yr older then a 1 1/2 old spike unless you pull the jawbone and look at the tooth eruption. If you're not doing that you really are just making your best guess on the deers age.

Say you succeed in killing every fawn, both bucks and does on your property in one season (which honestly is a highly unlikely possibility). Your population level simply doesn't grow and it will be back at the same level the following season. You do however get the benefit of your mature deer having more to eat and all of them advancing 1 year in age. The reality of Fawn harvest is you can't effect the population level even if you kill them all. You can however dramatically effect the percentage of older deer that are in your population. Is a major Fawn harvest something you should strive for every year? No! But it is a management tool that as ugly as unsavory as it obviously is, sometimes needs to be considered.

You should have a Wildlife Biologist come out, survey your property, collect data and jawbones. If you are really interested in QDM, I highly recommend this. But be prepared he might make some suggestions that truly won't sit well with everyone. Fawn harvest might be one of those suggestions, it may not. It depends on a lot of factors a good Wildlife Biologist will weigh to formulate his recommendations.

[Randy]

Leo, deer in SC start breeding in September? Wow, I don't understand that. I was always under the assumption that Northern deer aways started Around Nov., and Southern deer always started around Dec.?

As far as the shooting of fawns, (in my particular case)we have too many deer period. So, does it not make sense that if you are trying to even out the herd, shoot the doe that more than likely will be having two fawns versus the fawn that will probably only have one the first year? I.E. killing two deer by shooting a mature one instead of just one by shooting a fawn.

I know this is getting a bit off the original question but, like a few others have said, this has the wheels turning.

[okiedog]

Cute has NOTHING to do with how they taste and sound QDM decisions for the particular property.

If I had to hunt with the concern of that animals deserve a chance at life...well I might as quit hunting.

Your standards are not everyone elses. Many in the USA shoot whatever is legal and there is no harm or shame in being a successful hunter regardless of harvest.

All participating in this thread, if I may...are well seasoned hunters who who have 10-20 maybe more years under their belt with various weapons. We do not simply wish just to shoot any various deer anymore. We are looking to make sound management decisions for the properties we hunt, if we have that luxury, some hunt for meat and thats fine too. Some have limited time in the woods and have to make the most out of what steps out.

So much more deer biology info is available to us than our Dads and Gramps could ever dream of.

This is a GREAT thread and I wish a PRO could come on and put their 2cents in.

Awesome brainfood here.

Great post:D

I myself have shot a "fawn" in my early hunting years. Would I do it now?... No. Back then, every animal was a trophy to me in my eyes. Today, I see my self passing on deer that in years past I would be loading in the truck. My first ever bow kill was a button buck, and I couldn't have been more happy. I am starting to see the benifits of being more selective of passing on certain deer. I hunt alot of different properties including my own and each of them have different "shootable" deer to me. A deer that I might pass up on my own property might be on the "hit list" of another property, as well as the other way around.

Did I get side tracked?

[Bowtech_archer07]

I have seen a 6 month old spike buck.. the spikes were not long.. but I have seen it

[bluedog]

Here is some interesting food for thought about harvesting fawn does from the QDMA folks:

http://www.qdma.com/articles/details.asp?id=46

And to answer the question, yes, I shoot fawns (but not exclusively) and for several different reasons. I have limited time available to hunt so I may only get one opportunity to shoot a deer per season. The only deer that I let walk are the small bucks because 1) I love to see big mature bucks in the woods and 2) I totally respect other hunters who yearn for big antlers even though I am not one of them. Any other deer is fair game. On my farm, we really need to thin the deer herd and while it would make sense to choose the older doe to decrease population, sometimes the best shot is the younger doe. Last season was a perfect example. I was sitting in the woods on the last day of the season and hadn't seen a deer all afternoon. At 10 minutes before the end of legal shooting time, I saw two deer step into the field in front of me. It was obvious it was a doe and a fawn. From my angle, the fawn was further out in the field and presented a good shot. The mature doe was in the field, but partially obscured by some brush along the edge of the field. I waited until 1 minute before the end of legal shooting time and the mature doe presented no shot. I took the fawn. I'd do the same thing again in a heartbeat.

[Leo]

Leo, deer in SC start breeding in September? Wow, I don't understand that. I was always under the assumption that Northern deer aways started Around Nov., and Southern deer always started around Dec.?

As far as the shooting of fawns, (in my particular case)we have too many deer period. So, does it not make sense that if you are trying to even out the herd, shoot the doe that more than likely will be having two fawns versus the fawn that will probably only have one the first year? I.E. killing two deer by shooting a mature one instead of just one by shooting a fawn.

I know this is getting a bit off the original question but, like a few others have said, this has the wheels turning.

I need to make something clear. The September breeding that happens here is absolutely NOT statewide. Nor is it common in quite a few other southern states. I live on the South Eastern Coast of South Carolina we have several different island subspecies of deer packed in the lower coastal part of this state. These deer are taxonomical different. Parts of Alabama I've hunted the rut activity is definitely peaking in Dec and they often breed in January as well. Those deer don't loose their horns until the middle of February. The deer here absolutely are starting to shed by the end of December. December here is a post rut month.

You're absolutely right that shooting mature does is the best way to reduce the population. I was trying to emphasize that harvesting these young deer has very little effect on the population size. My point in the earlier post is you really do want to limit the amount of fawns that come from mothers under one year old. Maybe that's not such a big deal in other parts of the country. Seems like many of you believe it is not. Here however, these deer are so small at that age it's a real killer.

A Wildlife Biologist will look at the carrying capacity of your land and take a population census (among other things). He'll base his suggestions on what you should harvest, to achieve your goals based on that data. The root of any solid management decision is based on hard earned raw data. Show me a manager that has data to support his decisions and I'll show you a guy that gets results and knows what he's doing. The better the data and his ability to interpret it the better the results.

[Leo]

I have seen a 6 month old spike buck.. the spikes were not long.. but I have seen it

Thanks, maybe it's not just where I hunt.

[Leo]

Here is some interesting food for thought about harvesting fawn does from the QDMA folks:

http://www.qdma.com/articles/details.asp?id=46

And to answer the question, yes, I shoot fawns (but not exclusively) and for several different reasons. I have limited time available to hunt so I may only get one opportunity to shoot a deer per season. The only deer that I let walk are the small bucks because 1) I love to see big mature bucks in the woods and 2) I totally respect other hunters who yearn for big antlers even though I am not one of them. Any other deer is fair game. On my farm, we really need to thin the deer herd and while it would make sense to choose the older doe to decrease population, sometimes the best shot is the younger doe. Last season was a perfect example. I was sitting in the woods on the last day of the season and hadn't seen a deer all afternoon. At 10 minutes before the end of legal shooting time, I saw two deer step into the field in front of me. It was obvious it was a doe and a fawn. From my angle, the fawn was further out in the field and presented a good shot. The mature doe was in the field, but partially obscured by some brush along the edge of the field. I waited until 1 minute before the end of legal shooting time and the mature doe presented no shot. I took the fawn. I'd do the same thing again in a heartbeat.

I really enjoyed that article thank you.

[Guest bow_hunter101]

It was obvious it was a doe and a fawn. From my angle, the fawn was further out in the field and presented a good shot. The mature doe was in the field, but partially obscured by some brush along the edge of the field. I waited until 1 minute before the end of legal shooting time and the mature doe presented no shot. I took the fawn. I'd do the same thing again in a heartbeat.

Similar thing happened to me this year. I had a doe and fawn come in 30 yards from my treestand a few weeks ago. As I drew back on the doe she turned and started walking directly away from me. She got to 40 yards and was getting farther away. So I turned my bow to the fawn and there it stood, perfectly broadside at 30 yards. I didn't hesitate shooting it.

In this case I would have shot the doe if I had the opportunity, but I didn't so I shot the fawn. It turned out to be a button buck, but do I feel bad about it?? No way. The backstraps are some of the best I've had! Meat from young deer is 10 times better and more tender anyways.

Where I hunt there isn't a huge population of deer so any animal is good and (as others have said) taking a fawn gives a better chance for the mature does to breed.

[Will_in_cky25]

yeah o shot one this year by mistake, i couldn't tell if it was a button buck or a doe, after finding the animal and relizing that it was a button i kick myself in the pants for doing it but i didn't lose any sleep either. but like i said it was a mistake but if it had any spots on it he woulda walked. but hey it did make for some good jeeky and stew.

[Randy]

Here is some interesting food for thought about harvesting fawn does from the QDMA folks:

http://www.qdma.com/articles/details.asp?id=46

And to answer the question, yes, I shoot fawns (but not exclusively) and for several different reasons. I have limited time available to hunt so I may only get one opportunity to shoot a deer per season. The only deer that I let walk are the small bucks because 1) I love to see big mature bucks in the woods and 2) I totally respect other hunters who yearn for big antlers even though I am not one of them. Any other deer is fair game. On my farm, we really need to thin the deer herd and while it would make sense to choose the older doe to decrease population, sometimes the best shot is the younger doe. Last season was a perfect example. I was sitting in the woods on the last day of the season and hadn't seen a deer all afternoon. At 10 minutes before the end of legal shooting time, I saw two deer step into the field in front of me. It was obvious it was a doe and a fawn. From my angle, the fawn was further out in the field and presented a good shot. The mature doe was in the field, but partially obscured by some brush along the edge of the field. I waited until 1 minute before the end of legal shooting time and the mature doe presented no shot. I took the fawn. I'd do the same thing again in a heartbeat.

First off, Welcome to the forums!!

Interesting read. From what I get out of it, they are stressing the shooting of fawns in extreme northern areas where winterkill is a severe possibility. In my "area" we find very few if any winterkill due to the croplands that I live in and the abundance of food. I can however see that in Northern areas where crops are scarce and the "browse" is all getting eaten that taking out a few fawns would be the wise choice.

Leo, so you really got my curiosity now. With a three month breeding season, do you see a lot of rut activity? I mean do you see 3,4,or even 5 bucks chasing one doe at a time? I bet your deer are happier than ours!!

[bluedog]

First off, Welcome to the forums!!

Interesting read. From what I get out of it, they are stressing the shooting of fawns in extreme northern areas where winterkill is a severe possibility. In my "area" we find very few if any winterkill due to the croplands that I live in and the abundance of food. I can however see that in Northern areas where crops are scarce and the "browse" is all getting eaten that taking out a few fawns would be the wise choice.

Yep, it does pertain to the far northern part of their range. Still thought it was an interesting read. I've read some other articles that "suggest" that a certain percentage of the doe kill should be fawns to keep the age structure balanced. Of course what is being recommended now is based on current information. What was true 20 years ago, is not true now and what is true now, will surely be different in the future.

And thanks for the welcome! I've been lurking here for a couple of years and finally decided to join. LOL!

[wtnhunt]

Thanks, maybe it's not just where I hunt.

Nope, not just where you hunt Leo, we have on a very few rare occasions here seen fawns with short spikes protruding through the buttons. Probably no more than 3 inch spikes.

Thing that some people might not realize is that in deer, the does will continue to come in until they get bred. So if for whatever reason a doe missed, there will be another chance about a month later, and that will continue until she does get bred. Some late born doe fawns that may miss getting bred altogether may in the following year get bred very early on, they would then have early born fawns. Gestation is around 203 to 205 days for whitetails. Leonard Lee Rue writes about a fawn born in October in his book the way of the whitetail. It was born in captivity, but his point was that deer can and will breed outside the rut and outside of the time that we might expect them to. Just because it is not the rut, does not mean a buck cannot breed a doe and that she will not conceive.

We have seen a buck try to mount a doe here in February before. Unusual as it may seem, it probably happens elsewhere too from time to time.

[Shawn]

Hey everyone, i've just been checking on everyone's input everyday and appreciate all your opinions, thanks everyone.

[Leo]

Leo, so you really got my curiosity now. With a three month breeding season, do you see a lot of rut activity? I mean do you see 3,4,or even 5 bucks chasing one doe at a time? I bet your deer are happier than ours!!

Do we have a lot of rut activity? If you mean more breeding the answer is yes. If you mean more scrapes and rubs and more chasing activity than no. We probably have a lot less of the classic rut behavior seen elsewhere in the country. I've hunted other areas of the country and the rut here is more accurately described as a trickle of activity by comparison. The doe to buck ratios here are very high, over 10:1 is common and some areas have over 20:1. The does that get bred in the first estrous cycle here are bred primarily the more mature bucks. There is very little scraping activity since scrapes are primarily made to help bucks find receptive does. They have no trouble finding receptive does at this time so as a result very few (if any) scrapes get made. You don't witness "the chase" this time of year here because the bucks find the does that are ready right then easily. They simply don't chase them until they are ready in the September estrous because they don't have to. The bucks that are 1 1/2yrs old that are ready to breed don't compete much with the more mature deer in the first estrous cycle. This is their first breeding season and it doesn't seem to kick in for them what they need to do until October. If you've ever seen a young male dog with a female in heat for the first time, you'll appreciate the cluelessness I'm referring to. Or if you prefer think back to when you were a young man and you knew then what you know now. Enough said I think. The only solid evidence that really exists here that some breeding here occurs in September is the April Fawns. And they have literally been born in my backyard.

Second estrous cycle rolls around and some chasing occurs plus the first earnest scrapes (they show repeated activity) start showing up. Competition is still pretty low because the ratio is so heavily weighted in the does favor. But the 1 1/2 year old bucks finally do start to seriously participate. Most guys here consider this time the peak of the rut. I agree that it is.

The third and for here the final estrous cycle because these bucks start to loose their horns shortly thereafter. Can have the most intense activity and competition. Multiple bucks absolutely will chase a single doe. If you see a doe here by itself this time of year, wait, then you'll see the buck, wait some more and you very probably will see another and then another. There are less scrapes in November because when a buck gets on a doe and starts chasing, it literally starts a parade. Here we can legally shoot a buck and a doe the same day. The smartest thing you can do this time of year, here, when you see a single doe in November is to shoot her and drop her right there. And then wait to see if any bucks come in. The biggest deer will invariably be the last one to show up. I've seen this more than once. All I can figure is he's conserving his energy so he can whip the young punks when she finally stops that are trying to compete with him. The sound of a rifle shot does not seem to deter them, nor does the fact that she is now dead, hold your ground and stay put in the stand. Stay till the end of legal shooting light and only then go get your doe. If she truly was in esterous you have an extremely good chance of dragging out two deer. And one of them might very well be a whopper

[bluedog]

So what do you think about this guy? I figure he was a late "hatch" from last year? (Is my turkey hunting addiction showing now? ) Pretty unusual to see a yearling buck this small around here. Most are at least 6 points. A few will just be 4 points and some are small 8 points. Still, a button buck surely wouldn't have antlers like this, correct????