Normal for first shot to be off paper?

[rossman]

I have a .45 caliber thompson omega muzzlelaoder. I wanted to try out the new Power Belt "Platinum Tip" 223 grain bullett with 150 grains of triple 7 powder.

I wanted to increase the grains in my bullet and charge to deliver more KE. I used to use a 200 grain shockwave with 100 grains of powder and had a 2 inch spread at 100 yards, but had a hard time killing deer with it, having no sign of blood or hair after the shot. I would track the deer in the snow for more than 150 yards with no sign but could not believe I was missing. I shot at 3 deer the last two years at less than 100 yards with no sign of hitting it. I kill deer at 400 yards with my weatherby but can't kill a deer within 100 yards with muzzleloader.

Myt first shot with a clean barrell missed the entire paper. So, I shot another and it was a half inch high dead center. I fired three more shots and here is the pattern I got at 100 yards.

Is it normal for the first "clean barrell" shot to be off so much?

Is this an acceptable pattern for you guys at 100 yards? Its a 3" spread.

I only accept a 1 inch spread with my rifle but a rifle is different of course.

Is this good enough to ethically hunt deer with?

Thanks--rossman

[wtnhunt]

Is it normal for the first "clean barrell" shot to be off so much?

Dont think the first shot should be totally off the paper. My groups are best with a slightly fouled barrel, the first shot typically hits a bit high, usually around 3 inches at 100 yards. I do oil the barrel after a thorough cleaning and understandably the first saboted round will move down the barrel faster and or with less resistance than a sabot moving through a fouled barrel. How much difference to expect between a squeaky clean oiled barrel and a fouled barrel might depend on your loads, I could be wrong, but I really dont think it should be getting you totally off the paper at 100 yards.

[rossman]

Dont think the first shot should be totally off the paper. My groups are best with a slightly fouled barrel, the first shot typically hits a bit high, usually around 3 inches at 100 yards. I do oil the barrel after a thorough cleaning and understandably the first saboted round will move down the barrel faster and or with less resistance than a sabot moving through a fouled barrel. How much difference to expect between a squeaky clean oiled barrel and a fouled barrel might depend on your loads, I could be wrong, but I really dont think it should be getting you totally off the paper at 100 yards.

A hear ya. I could have flintched or something like that. So maybe it was me. This is the first time I tried th shoot 150 grains of powder out of my muzzleloader in 2 years. So, maybe I was thinking about the kick.

Thanks,

Rossman

[Dubie]

Usualy the first shot is a little off, but not right of the paper.

[Tominator]

Are you scoped Rossman?

Open sights you might get that, but scoped off a firm rest or bench, I don't think you should be totally off the paper. I have heard that some ML's shoot better with a slightly fouled barrel. Like William, my first shot out of a clean barrel is a little high, but my 100 yard groups are pretty tight.

I've heard that sometimes a 150 gr. load is too much.

I shoot 250 gr. Shockwave with 100 gr. of Pyrodex pellets.

Maybe just play with your combinations until you find one that works.

[Hoyt03]

I really don't think the 150 gr is necessary. Like Tominator I shoot 150 gr shockwaves and 100 gr pyrodex pellets and my Omega is dead on. Some time the first shot out of a clean barrel is just slightly off maybe a few inches but never off the paper. When hunting with my ML I shoot it at the range, clean it up good, take one more shot after the cleaning, then it's good for the season.

[Guest turkeyhuntr]

I never start off with a clean barrel. If you dump 25 or 30 grains of loose powder down the barrel, put in a primer or cap and fire the rifle in the air it will foul the barrel. I then put a spit patch down the barrel and your ready to load up for hunting or range.

[Guest scubabeartoo]

From what I have been able to determine from various forums each and every black powder rifle seems to have "sweet spot" when it comes to powder charge and bullet weight.

When I went to the 777 website they do not show any loads over 100 gr for the 50 cal. The site also suggests reducing the load by 15% from black powder as 777 is a hotter powder. The following statement is fom the 777 wesite.

"If you encounter poor accuracy while shooting sabot/bullets, inspect fire sabots. If sabots cannot be found or if sabots have failed (torn or broken), switch to magnum type sabot or high performance sabots."

When I first started hunting with my Encore I was shooting various powder charges and I determined the only thing I accomplished with my gun was I burned more powder at 150 grains and the accuracy was not as good as 90 to 100 grains. The recoil wasn't very acceptable either.

Some T/C's will shoot and some need help. The QLA could be the problem. The one on my gun was 0.029" off parallel with the bore and it would place shots to places unknown.

Bullets and sabots are another thing. You just have to find the one that shoots best in your gun. My Encore like the 200gr 40cal Dead Center bullets from precision bullets and the deer hate them. If you decide to try the Dead Center bullets call Cecil Epp at Precision Bullets and tell him what you have and he will supply the correct sabot with your bullets.

Bear

[PA_RIDGE_RUNNER]

First of all I am not a fan of those magnum charges of 150 gr. Second I just hate to have to foul a barrel to load the first charge as I then have a fouled barrel to go hunting with and to me that is no good. After cleaning my rifle for storage I oil the barrel. When I am ready to load my rifle I run an alcohol patch through the bore followed by a couple of dry ones so the oil is not affecting my first shot. At 50 yds my 80 gr charge of ffg Goex fired by a musket cap hits right there where I aim. At the range I then swab the barrel after each shot with alcohol and a couple of dry patches. I let the rifle sit while I look for the sabot and check the target. I then reload and fire again. Doing this at 50 yds has given me some very impressive groups. Sighted about an inch high at 50 yds I am very confident to shoot at up to 100 yds even with a clean barrel. I also feel very confident hunting for several days with my rifle loaded weather permitting.

[Guest gt2003]

Forget the magnum charge, especially with the powerbelts. Start off close and when you get a good group there, move out further. I'm thinking somewhere in the range of 80 grains of powder. Good luck, Greg

[LETMGROW]

I would clean heck out of the barrel and try the first shot again. I sight my MZ in with a clean barrel and hunt with a clean barrel. I do not like fouling a barrel. In my opinion a fouled barrel is a dirty barrel which will, over a short period of time, pit a perfectly good barrel and eventually ruin it.