PA a trophy state?? Update

[Strut10]

Not to beat a dead horse..........well, O.K.............I am beating a dead horse. But I like to do it when it needs doing. Here's a little update on what Dr. Gary Alt's/ the PGC's version of CDM (Crappy Deer Management) has turned up in the Winter 2007 issue of Boone & Crockett's "Fair Chase" magazine. This issue there are 227 whitetails ........both typical and non-typical......listed as being recently accepted into the 27th awards program. These are not all "All-Time" entries but include "Awards" level animals which go down to 160" for typical and 185" for non-typical.

Pennsylvania (once again) had ZERO entries (for at least the 2nd issue in a row).

Now, such reknowned big buck states like New York and Virginia had 3 entries each. New Hampshire and Maryland had 2 each. New Jersey and South Carolina both had an entry as well. Maybe PA needs to adopt the quality management plan these states have. Seems that "no plan" is working out better than "Alt's plan".

Thanks, Gary.

[shockwave]

The only way were gonna start seeing monsters is to let that 115" 8 point live a few more years.. Most guys i know, myself included are gonna bust him because he`s a legal shooter.. I also understand that you have to kill a few doe`s to ensure a healthy deer herd, but at the rate everyones shooting them, there aren`t going to be any left to hunt, JMHO

[donjohnk]

Well I agree that P.A. would need to change there rules a bit. I will say though since I started hunting P.A. 6 yrs ago I have seen a drastic increase in mature bucks. Yes some areas havent had large takes of bucks. But i feel its gonna take some time.

[Strut10]

The only way were gonna start seeing monsters is to let that 115" 8 point live a few more years.. Most guys i know, myself included are gonna bust him because he`s a legal shooter..

That's a large part of the problem....but not the biggest.

I also understand that you have to kill a few doe`s to ensure a healthy deer herd, but at the rate everyones shooting them, there aren`t going to be any left to hunt, JMHO

The herd decimation is by Alt's design, as well. But that's not the biggest part of the problem, either.

Reverse genetic cleansing. That's the problem.

[Texan_Til_I_Die]

Good point about the genetics. If you're going to attempt to influence genetics through a selective harvest, you better dang well know what you're doing and you better get the regs written up correctly.

I shot this management buck Sunday morning. He's got about as many undesirable antler traits as you could name. Would he be a legal buck in PA? If not, I'd strongly suggest you get started rewriting your regs asap.

[Strut10]

Texan..........

Nope. He does not have 4 legal points on one side. Not legal in the 10 western counties (of which mine is one). That's the type of buck we're preserving, by the decree of Dr. Gary Alt, as our breeding stock.

[Guest csod08]

Well that would be legal for me to shoot since the restriction in my area is 3 legal points on one side. There are definitely some problems with the regulations but I am seeing bigger buck around than I did 10 years ago.

[Strut10]

There are definitely some problems with the regulations but I am seeing bigger buck around than I did 10 years ago.

I am seeing a few good bucks too. But I have seen more spikes in the last two years than I saw in my first 28 years of deer hunting combined. That's a fact.

[ruttinbuc]

Did you ever think that maybe everyone does not ENTER the book? Deer need to live to get to be something for the book. That is what is not happening..and with the PA hunter mindset...it won't.

[buckbuster11]

Reverse genetic cleansing. That's the problem.

That's a problem that won't ever be fixed. No way you can manage that on a statewide level especially with the freaking size of the WMU's right now.

The only way I can see them solving some of the problem is having the rule be 4 points to one antler OR a spread of say.....15" or greater.

That might elimate some of the giant 4, 5 and 6 points with crap genes running around. But then you are asking guys to accurately estimate the spread of a rack within an inch. So, that won't ever happen.

[Strut10]

Did you ever think that maybe everyone does not ENTER the book?

That's occurred to me.........for, like, a second. However I'd be naive to think that the folks in PA are the only hunters in North America that don't enter their deer into the B&C program.

[Strut10]

That's a problem that won't ever be fixed. No way you can manage that on a statewide level especially with the freaking size of the WMU's right now.

The only way I can see them solving some of the problem is having the rule be 4 points to one antler OR a spread of say.....15" or greater.

That might elimate some of the giant 4, 5 and 6 points with crap genes running around. But then you are asking guys to accurately estimate the spread of a rack within an inch. So, that won't ever happen.

The WMU size sure ain't helping.

Here's Colorado with around 170 units for an average of 612 sq. mi. per management unit.

Here's Pennsylvania with 22 units for an average of 2094 sq. mi. per management unit.

Now these units are the same ones used to manage turkeys, bears, beavers and pheasants, too. There are no dedicated deer units.

As far as implementing a minimum spread requirement or an "and/or" deal with spread and points..........it's just about as easy to identify an ear-wide rack on a deer moving in the brush as it is to count points. Maybe easier.

[jm23494]

Kill more doe!?!?

Yeah that's what Alt said we should do to bring the heard back. It is disheartening to see the herd in such poor shape because we kill hundreds of thousands of doe each year, that's not to mention how many button bucks get taken as well. We need to stop hunting doe in a few of the WMU's each year and allow the heard to produce back. We keep having such young deer breed one year and then get harvested the next. I hunt on private land and the herd that we have is no where near what it was 10 years ago. And we only take a few deer off it each year, if we even see any. We need to stop the doe harvest for a few years and let the natural breeding cycle do it's thing and then I think we will start to see some results.

As for the WMU boundries, main roads and county lines are used. Other than that there is no rhyme or reason for them. I guess that deer do not cross roadways from one WMU to the other.

[jbeck]

OK, I'm jumping in on this one.

10 years ago we started QDM on our property, we have 600 acres and did quite well. We tried to take only a limited # of 2 1/2 yr. old bucks, and took a few does out of the herd. We timbered our property to allow for better feed through the winter, bedding area's and such. We planted food plots for feed and minerals.

Then the Alt program went into affect, the killing of deer in the state ground surrounding us was alarming. As most of you know deer disperse when they have the chance, this is God way of rebuilding a herd. Well, when the deer move to the public hunting area, the doe tag toteing people that come to the state ground fill there tags.

We have gone from watching 5 to 6 bucks a sit, down to seeing 5 or 6 bucks a year. Boy am I for this program, I had a planted corn field for feed beside my house. It took 3 years for the corn to be eaten, the deer used to clean out the field before Feb. in one year.

I'm done.

Jeff

[western NY bowhunter]

I don't think that you can base your arguement strictly by those numbers issued by B&C. You mentioned that there were 3 deer entered from NY. I just checked the current edition of the NYS Big Buck Club Record Book and there have been 20 deer entered in the state record book in the past 2 seasons ('05 and'06) that meet the 160/185 qualifications. Five of these deer have exceeded the B&C minimums....4 booners were taken in '06 alone. While these aren't record breaking numbers by any means...20 deer is quite a big jump from the 3 that B&C shows. Maybe alot of them were never entered...I don't know? How often are these number released?

Anyways, PA and NY both suffer from the same problem...too much hunting pressure on the younger age class bucks. Here are a couple of PA bruisers that I've seen on other forums from '07...both of them should NO trouble meeting the 160" B&C awards minimum...!

[wtnhunt]

The herd decimation is by Alt's design, as well.

Well Don, in a way I can kind of relate. We do not have AR's, just poor management decisions by some in some key places. Supposedly deer here are thriving, and while Tennessee claims that the age class of bucks is better than border states(specifically Kentucky which they point out in the 2006 and 2007 handbooks), I am certainly not seeing that here, and numbers overall are on a very significant decline. In all honesty I think the decisions that some are making have everything to do with the interest of insurance companies and not what is best for us hunters. I have said it before and will say it again, when the state implements liberal limits on does allowing for up to 3 a day to be killed in a county where there is an estimated deer density of 15 deer per sq mile, someone has really screwed up. Eradication here looks like it is the goal. Will be interesting over the next couple years to see the overall harvest data for this state.

[snapper]

Boy is this horse dead...lol

Ok, here is a question...if we stop the doe reduction and let the numbers increase...how does one expect a mature buck to breed all the doe? If the doe numbers are lower in certain areas...wouldn't a mature buck have a better chance of breeding and passing his genes?

I guess my point would be...if a mature buck is the only mature buck within' 200 acres and he is with a hot doe...he ain't leaving her. Now if there are at least 20-30 does in that same 200 acre plot...I'm sure there will be at least a few more does in heat at the same time...whats going to breed them?

I don't have the answers either...but I know of a buck taken off the Strut10 farm this past season that just about any of us would take!

[wtnhunt]

I'm sure there will be at least a few more does in heat at the same time...whats going to breed them?

If they go without being bred the first time around, they will continue to come back in estrous until they do get bred. Possible also that a younger immature buck may get in on the breeding action in some cases where the doe numbers are so out of whack.

[zippyswamp]

There is some young bucks that do the breeding when a mature buck is not in the area, sometimes even if a mature buck is present.

The young buck still has the genetic make up to pass on the good genes (or bad)

My neighbor watched a 1 1/2 year old breed a doe while a mature 3 1/2 lay nearby and watched, then after, got up and bred the doe again. Go figure!

It would be ideal to have the mature bucks do all the breeding, but it ain't happening.

[Texan_Til_I_Die]

My neighbor watched a 1 1/2 year old breed a doe while a mature 3 1/2 lay nearby and watched, then after, got up and bred the doe again. Go figure!

That's not really that unusual. I don't recall the exact figure, but somewhere around 15 - 20% of fawn twins have different sires.

[ruttinbuc]

It comes down to letting these bucks reach maturity. That was nice buck taken at the Strut10 ranch this year. Wonder what he might have been next? Would natural selection then take with the doe that are left?

[wtnhunt]

The young buck still has the genetic make up to pass on the good genes (or bad)

Very good point that gets overlooked. Also dont usually see too much mention that the does genetics also have a role to play in the fawns future potential.

[buckbuster11]

Very good point that gets overlooked. Also dont usually see too much mention that the does genetics also have a role to play in the fawns future potential.

Very, very important points.

[Strut10]

Ok, here is a question...if we stop the doe reduction and let the numbers increase...how does one expect a mature buck to breed all the doe? If the doe numbers are lower in certain areas...wouldn't a mature buck have a better chance of breeding and passing his genes?

I guess my point would be...if a mature buck is the only mature buck within' 200 acres and he is with a hot doe...he ain't leaving her. Now if there are at least 20-30 does in that same 200 acre plot...I'm sure there will be at least a few more does in heat at the same time...whats going to breed them?

I don't have the answers either...but I know of a buck taken off the Strut10 farm this past season that just about any of us would take!

Good point in theory. But the problem seems to be that the mature bucks are products of the antler restriction and (more and more) genetic misfits. A 1 1/2 year buck with good genetics passes the same genes now as he would as a 5 1/2 year old Booner. Problem is......he gets whacked his first year with a rack. The mature bucks are increasingly becoming the bucks that couldn't grow 3 or 4 points to a side for their first 2 or 3 or 6 years.

BTW..........the buck of which you speak was a product of my knowing who comes & goes on the Strut10 Ranch. Has NOTHING to do with Alt's vision.

[wtnhunt]

Don, have you and the others who you share concerns with contacted your state officials? If not, it would not hurt.

Sometimes it may not seem to do any good, but you never know. Will never forget my letter years ago to my own state about their definition of the states youth hunt. Youth hunters were classified as kids age 10-16, however it was legal for all kids to hunt(no age limit), which excluded kids under 10 from participating in this states youth hunt weekend. Seemed pretty unfair and I addressed that. Dont know if my letter had any play in it or not, but I sent my concerns, and 2 year later, they changed the regs in that regard to allow kids 6-16 to participate.

Will be sending the state officials here a message to all that I think are involved in the decision making on the liberal limits just as soon as season ends and I can use their own numbers in my message.