PA a trophy state?? Update

[snapper]

BTW..........the buck of which you speak was a product of my knowing who comes & goes on the Strut10 Ranch. Has NOTHING to do with Alt's vision.

Do you think that buck was 1 1/2 years old?

Not all (granted some do) get killed the first 1 1/2 or at least before breeding. I know on my property, I seen 2 shooters (which I missed one on the last day) and got a picture of another on my trail camera.

Problem is...everyone in PA has different views on whats "hunting" to them. Some folks are ok with shooting 4's or 6's...others aren't. How do we adjust to make everyone happy?

I personally like the AR and doe reduction. I've seen more (what I would call "shooters") in the past few years then back before AR.

BTW, did you seen the Indiana paper? 10 years ago, you would have never seen that many good/decent bucks in the paper. JMO!

Here is the picture on my trail camera I was talking about...its not the greatest, but best outta 4 that I got. Never seen this buck to tell "just" how good he is.

[horst]

Theres a lot about antler restrictions that just doesnt make sense.Heres a scenario,

You got two bucks born the same time, ones got awesome genetic potential and the other has poor potential.Which bucks gonna become a legal deer first?The genetically superior one more then likely correct?So that means you can shoot him at a younger age than the one thats going to take another year or two to reach the same size.You just killed the good buck and left the inferior one to breed as he becomes more mature.

Maturity and genetics get viewed as the same thing in many cases and its just not the way it works.

You now have a mature buck with bad genes and a stunted rack doing the breeding and youve killed the better buck when in reality he woulda been the you wanted doing the breeding even at a young age.

The only thing that would work would be a age limit its the only way to tell what a deers potential is is to let him live long enough to reach it, and that would be unenforcable and not possible for many people to accurately age a deer to any degree of accuracy.

Problem is...everyone in PA has different views on whats "hunting" to them. Some folks are ok with shooting 4's or 6's...others aren't. How do we adjust to make everyone happy?

If the goal was to make everyone happy the obvious answer would be to quit trying to turn it into a trophy state and let people shoot whatever makes them happy.Guys looking for bigger bucks could hold out and guys just wanting to kill a deer could do so.

[Guest csod08]

I personally like the AR and doe reduction. I've seen more (what I would call "shooters") in the past few years then back before AR.

I agree that I have seen more shooters up here in Northeast PA, but the number of deer around is getting too low in my opinion. I don't know if its just where I live or what, but I'm lucky to see 6 deer in a day now. My dad tells me stories about how they would easily see 50 deer in a day when he was a kid. I like the antler restrictions, but I think the game commission needs to get back on the number of doe tags they hand out in the next few years.

[Strut10]

Theres a lot about antler restrictions that just doesnt make sense.Heres a scenario,

You got two bucks born the same time, ones got awesome genetic potential and the other has poor potential.Which bucks gonna become a legal deer first?The genetically superior one more then likely correct?So that means you can shoot him at a younger age than the one thats going to take another year or two to reach the same size.You just killed the good buck and left the inferior one to breed as he becomes more mature.

Maturity and genetics get viewed as the same thing in many cases and its just not the way it works.

You now have a mature buck with bad genes and a stunted rack doing the breeding and youve killed the better buck when in reality he woulda been the you wanted doing the breeding even at a young age.

BRAVO!!

That's been exactly my gripe since day 1 of this mess we've been sold.

We are artificially preserving crap genes to live and breed another day while exterminating the good genetics the first year they grow a rack. We've got bucks running around at 2 or 3 or 6 years old that still have not made a legal rack. But they are physically larger (body size) than genetically superior year-and-a-half bucks. The bigger deer are going to get the breeding rights if push comes to shove. It ain't rocket science. It's flawed biology from the word "go".

[elkoholic]

Well now, if you took away the antler restrictions, then most of the bucks ("good" genetics or "bad") would be killed before they reached 2&1/2 years of age. I, for one, would have to believe that with antler restrictions you will see more large antlered deer than without restrictions. Since the overall average point count for bucks in any whitetail population is 8 points, it can be assumed that mature bucks with fewer than 8 points are a small minority. There should be a stipulation in the regulations allowing for harvesting mature/large bodied buck which do not meet antler harvest requirements. The buck is only 1/2 of the genetic picture and poor antler genetics may well not be passed on anyway. As for doe harvest, seeing a lot of deer is not necessarily a good thing. What the game department should be aiming for is a healthy deer population with a buck to doe ratio of 1:1 to 1:5. Many areas with large deer populations show severe browse lines and under weight for age deer. Personally, I would rather see less deer and more buck per doe with an excellent chance of seeing a good mature buck. I have not hunted PA in 25 years and any increase in the age class of the deer there has got to be a good thing. I think Alt had the right idea to start from and with some fine tuning should result in a balanced deer herd. Is everyone going to like it? No, but it may be what is best for the deer herd. The word from my relatives living in PA is that there are simply too many hunters these days. Maybe there is a need to manage the hunters. Limiting the time one can spend hunting is never a subject one likes to hear but in some areas it may just have to be. I hope it all comes to some acceptable hunting opportunities for everyone.

[Guest csod08]

The word from my relatives living in PA is that there are simply too many hunters these days. Maybe there is a need to manage the hunters. Limiting the time one can spend hunting is never a subject one likes to hear but in some areas it may just have to be.

I know this probably would never happen, but I would love to see them get rid of the hunters from out of state who only come up for one week out of the year, and that is to deer hunt. They never come up before to scout or anything. This is something that really bothers me and I wish something could be done about it.

[Strut10]

Since the overall average point count for bucks in any whitetail population is 8 points, it can be assumed that mature bucks with fewer than 8 points are a small minority.

Where did you come up with that figure???????

During the last two archery seasons combined, I hunted a total of around 60 days. I saw a total of around 70 different bucks. NOT ONE of those bucks had more than 8 points. If I had to lay money on it, our average point count is 5................no where even close to 8. It's also a fact (based on the deer I have observed over the last 30 years of hunting) that the average is dropping. Everyone hunting the Strut10 Ranch has commented about seeing more spike bucks the last couple years than they'd seen all the rest of their hunting careers COMBINED. The number of bucks without browtines seems to be on the increase as well.

The buck is only 1/2 of the genetic picture and poor antler genetics may well not be passed on anyway.

The big Texas ranches seem to think there's enough chance of poor antlers being passed on to warrant culling them.

As for doe harvest, seeing a lot of deer is not necessarily a good thing.

It is in a state where we're losing youth hunters.

.........any increase in the age class of the deer there has got to be a good thing.

Any BIOLOGICALLY SOUND increase in the age class would have been a GREAT thing. What we've got now is a snowball on a hillside. The problem's only getting bigger and it ain't gonna go away until our herd hits rock bottom.

[snapper]

If you took away the AR...then all bucks (good and bad genes) get killed the first year!

[Guest csod08]

If you took away the AR...then all bucks (good and bad genes) get killed the first year!

Thats exactly right, its up to the hunters to let the 2 1/2 yr old 8 point past in order for him to become a true trophy. Of course, unless you own a lot of land it is hard to control what other hunters do around you.

[elkoholic]

Strut10, no matter what whitetail authority (if there is such a thing) you ask you will find that the average mature whitetail buck has an eight point rack. What the big ranches in Texas do is irrelevant, as they also pay big money for trophy class bucks as breeding stock. If their strategy worked you would soon have no "cull" bucks. Hmmm. In a state where you have so many hunters who hunt by the "if it's brown, it's down" theory there can be little management without making most of the hunters upset. I think hunter management is something to look at. Good luck with the problem and try to keep an open line of communication with the game commission.

[snapper]

The way I see it...the PGC has had control of our deer herd for more than 70 years...not til Dr. Alt changed things have I seen better bucks. No, maybe not booners...but better bucks.

I don't think Alts plan was to grow "trophy" bucks...his plan was to grow a healthier herd with the end result in "trophy" (better) bucks.

I'm not a biologist...but in my opinion, if you have access and are able to manage a few hundred acres and are not killing does...your property is still the same way the PGC has done it for years and your not going to see the quailty bucks Alt was refering to.

[Hoyt03]

just because you shoot does on your property does not mean the bucks are automatically growing inches. This doe harvest thing is out of control, and people are buying it because they think for every doe they shoot bucks are adding inches. We had big bucks when you would see 100 does a day. I agree with letting the 1.5 yr olds get a chance to grow but I do not agree with the doe slaughter. The less amount of recruitment obvoiusly leads to a lesser chance of a buck making to a large status because of lesser amount of bucks. I have only taken 1 doe in the last 3 years on property where I can slightly control things and I know for the most part they will survive to the next year. Oh yeah, what is this doe killing doing to the age structure of does? We want bucks to get more age to them but now the does seem to not be making it too many years. I don't see those real big does now like you used to.

[Strut10]

What I see happening at my place (a few hundred acres that we manage) is that the deer we let go (young bucks) are spreading out into the surrounding areas of deer decimation and we can't hold (for the most part) anything over at all. We're managing and saving bucks..........only to have them disperse, never to be seen on our place again.

[Hoyt03]

that's a bummer, it's hard to manage well when you can't hold the deer on your property. But I also saw that pic from the ranch this year, and I dont know anyone who wouldn't love to shoot a buck like that. By the way whatever happened to that big 6 you were having run ins with the past few yrs who was huge but not legal to shoot? Ever see him again?

[Strut10]

By the way whatever happened to that big 6 you were having run ins with the past few yrs who was huge but not legal to shoot? Ever see him again?

The big 6 died last year during gun season. Neighboring landowner whacked him.........ONLY THEN to discover it had a 1 1/8" sticker off the one burr........making it legal. I had that buck at 20 yards twice last archery season and could not put a 7th point on him with Burrs binos. Neighbor dude shoots him because he's got a massive rack, then finds out he's legal. 22 5/8" wide inside. 14" G-2's. Main-frame 6-pointer.

Thanks Gary.

[ruttinbuc]

Yep, Gary Alt's fault...killed em all he did.....

[Strut10]

Yep, Gary Alt's fault...killed em all he did.....

He's the guy whose herd reduction program has the PGC issuing as many doe tags as there are deer in the state. You do the math.

[horst]

The way I see it...the PGC has had control of our deer herd for more than 70 years...not til Dr. Alt changed things have I seen better bucks. No, maybe not booners...but better bucks.

I don't think Alts plan was to grow "trophy" bucks...his plan was to grow a healthier herd with the end result in "trophy" (better) bucks.

I'm not a biologist...but in my opinion, if you have access and are able to manage a few hundred acres and are not killing does...your property is still the same way the PGC has done it for years and your not going to see the quailty bucks Alt was refering to.

Older bucks dont guarantee a healthier herd, it doesnt even gaurantee the end result being more trophy deer.

Does need thinned out but after a certain point youre also thinning out the number of bucks youll see the following year,were in the middle of large herd reduction ourselves and the results {for my area} are not good.Were seeing does in way fewer numbers, the average size of the does we see is half what it used to be, and after a certain point we started seeing less bucks as well.

The does are the ones that reproduce, both buck and doe fawns, every doe that gets wacked means theres gonna be between one and 3 less deer around the following year, youre killing her plus the fawns she would give birth to.

Taking to few does is bad but taking to many can have a bad effect on the herd as well.I dont know the situation in PA but Ive seen first hand what going overboard on slaughtering does can do.Once a state starts that its very hard to convince them that theyve gone overboard and get them to stop.The reality on the grounds often quite different then the numbers theyre showing the public as well, theyre estimates seem to be on the high end of things.

[wtnhunt]

Does need thinned out but after a certain point youre also thinning out the number of bucks youll see the following year,were in the middle of large herd reduction ourselves and the results {for my area} are not good.Were seeing does in way fewer numbers, the average size of the does we see is half what it used to be, and after a certain point we started seeing less bucks as well.

The does are the ones that reproduce, both buck and doe fawns, every doe that gets wacked means theres gonna be between one and 3 less deer around the following year, youre killing her plus the fawns she would give birth to.

Taking to few does is bad but taking to many can have a bad effect on the herd as well.I dont know the situation in PA but Ive seen first hand what going overboard on slaughtering does can do.Once a state starts that its very hard to convince them that theyve gone overboard and get them to stop.

Pretty well seeing the same here Chris, the overall number of deer we are seeing is on a terrible decline. Really going to be interesting after the ehd outbreak this past year to see if the state keeps with the liberal(excessive) limits on does here.

[shockwave]

Yep, Gary Alt's fault...killed em all he did.....

Meat hunters killed all them off !!

[Guest adrenaline_junky]

The biggest problem with PA right now is the fact that the PGC bases everything on the insurance companies and city people. It's not about hunting for these guys they just don't want the deer herd. All they are doing is killing off all the deer. PA has great potential, I have 475 acres here in PA that we manage for big bucks. It has worked great we took 3 P&Y's off the property this year. The problem is that the PGC willn't do the same management program some of the property owners are doing and it just willnt grow the big bucks on public land. In my personal opinion Gary Alts deer program is the biggest joke in deer managment. Thats probably why hes in Wisconsin now.

[007hunter]

The biggest problem with PA right now is the fact that the PGC bases everything on the insurance companies and city people.

Just like the PGC released coyotes into the wild. Oh and also those rattlesnakes out of helicopters...

[REALSCENT]

O.K.,,,,with out trying to crucify Gary Alt and the rest of the game commission,...lets address the real problem,....and that is the PA HUnter Mentality,..always blaming it on the other guy,..and the "i gotta get my buck" attitude is what the problem is,....nobody is forcing guys to hunt and harvest they way they do,...they do it by themselves,..it's so much easier just to blame someone else,..HOW about the hunters taking some responsibility,...but NO that would make to much sense. I've worked with different management programs all over the country and, The first part of any and I said ANY proper management program is RATIO,...is PA's ratio better now than it was,....it sounds to me if you are seeing so many spikes on the "strut10" ranch,....you need to do something about proper birthing times,....this is exactly the opposite of what most PA hunters are saying though,........

...Yes,..numbers are drastically low, and times have changed along with alot of things like,...pressure, private land, longer seasons, bag limits, antler restrictions and so many other things that are to numerous to mention,...but if the PA hunters will open their eyes and unite and quit crying all the time,...something may happen for the better,....REMEMBER, we are the FINAL judges,...we are the ones who make the decisions that matter,.......TAKE SOME RESPONSIBILITY.

rs

[Strut10]

,....it sounds to me if you are seeing so many spikes on the "strut10" ranch,....you need to do something about proper birthing times,....

rs

What course of action would you suggest we take to adjust "birthing times"?? Beyond opening a deer "family planning" center........the only thing I could think of would be to eradicate more doe so the spikes can get them all bred in November.

We actually take a pretty active role in deer management at the Strut10 Ranch. On the 285 acres that we have sole control over.........total 2007 harvest was 3 bucks and two does. The doe number may seem low. But after the spring dispersal into the eradication zones that surround the ranch.......we'll be plenty short on deer.

[REALSCENT]

OOOOOOOOOOkaaaayyyyyy. That's kinda the response I thought I would get.

Pat