PA a trophy state?? Update

[ruttinbuc]

Did all those doe get killed in the eradication zone from the start of Dr. Alt's management plan? How many doe were taken from the Strut 10 ranch in the beginning? Do you have anything there to keep the doe on the property? Do the neighbors drive deer?

I agree with REALSCENT about the hunters mentality and the need for taking responsibility for the resource. The hard part is convincing those that still pull the trigger on the only deer they see in a week of hunting. Some guys just don't get it and never will! Gary Alt did this, and Gary Alt did that is all I have heard for the last how many years now? Yet, the hunters of PA continue to buy the antlerless deer tags and fill them because they don't have the patience to actually hunt for a legal buck. Of the 866,000 licensed in PA how many hunt for more than a couple days of rifle season?

[Strut10]

Did all those doe get killed in the eradication zone from the start of Dr. Alt's management plan? How many doe were taken from the Strut 10 ranch in the beginning? Do you have anything there to keep the doe on the property? Do the neighbors drive deer?

Yes......from the beginning. Only a limited number of mature does. We have a good cover and foodplot program. Some, yes.

The hard part is convincing those that still pull the trigger on the only deer they see in a week of hunting. Some guys just don't get it and never will! Gary Alt did this, and Gary Alt did that is all I have heard for the last how many years now? Yet, the hunters of PA continue to buy the antlerless deer tags and fill them because they don't have the patience to actually hunt for a legal buck. Of the 866,000 licensed in PA how many hunt for more than a couple days of rifle season?

The hard part is explaining to the guys who only get a couple days in rifle season as the only hunting they do all year that they aren't "hunter enough" to shoot a deer any more. Runs in my mind that those guys pay the same money for their license as the guy who scouts all summer and hunts every day. Besides his biology being complete garbage...........Alt completely deconstructed the largest part of deer hunting in Pennsylvania: TRADITION. Now, the uncle or cousin who came back from "the city" or "down east" to hunt for a couple days has very little reason to even buy a license anymore. The fellow who could care less if he ever saw a "mature buck" let alone shoot one is suddenly S.O.L. Fellows who considered a "trophy" any deer they shot while visiting family or hunting with friends are now legislated into being "trophy hunters" by writ.

A couple of years back, my 80 year old uncle.........on what would be his last or next-to-last trip "up home" to hunt deer.........had to pass on the biggest buck he'd ever seen in the woods in his life. Why?? Too far?? Too much brush?? Not a safe shot?? Moving too fast?? Nope. he had to pass a deer that would have been the buck of his hunting lifetime because Gary Alt said that deer didn't have enough points on his rack to be a "shooter". THAT'S PURE CRAP!!!!!!!

Ask yourself a question. Why are there 866,000 licensed hunters in PA today when it's only been a handful of years that the number was 1,100,000???

[REALSCENT]

No need to call any more witness's your honor.

Pat

[Strut10]

No need to call any more witness's your honor.

Pat

Yep. You're right. No need. Everything's just ducky here in PA and case closed..........until I get the next issue of Fair Chase.

Too bad we can't call a witness to testify as to why 6 hunters (with a combined 175 years of hunting experience) couldn't manage to bust a cap on one single, Alt-legal buck in two weeks of hunting with rifles on some of the most sacred and protected grounds you'll find in the state.

BTW, Pat............what state are you from??

[ruttinbuc]

Things are no better on my side of the Delaware. The long gun seasons take their toll and it is starting to show. I saw a lot of deer early. Now it is like they walked off the face of the earth. They are at least driven off. This is what I would stop, but that will never happen. Deer being shot at is one thing, but when driven and shot at is quite another. My cameras show the deer moving at night.

Still, I can't blame Alt for all of the problem. I believe urbanization is hurting hunter numbers more than anything. A lot of people just don't have a place to go anymore. Many won't put up with public ground. I can't begin to count the acres I lost in the last 20 years. Funny thing is the best deer hunting is in the back yards of all that development..... Go figure! We just have to do what we need to and hope everyone comes to their senses about their resource.

[buckbuster11]

The hard part is explaining to the guys who only get a couple days in rifle season as the only hunting they do all year that they aren't "hunter enough" to shoot a deer any more. Runs in my mind that those guys pay the same money for their license as the guy who scouts all summer and hunts every day. Besides his biology being complete garbage...........Alt completely deconstructed the largest part of deer hunting in Pennsylvania: TRADITION. Now, the uncle or cousin who came back from "the city" or "down east" to hunt for a couple days has very little reason to even buy a license anymore. The fellow who could care less if he ever saw a "mature buck" let alone shoot one is suddenly S.O.L. Fellows who considered a "trophy" any deer they shot while visiting family or hunting with friends are now legislated into being "trophy hunters" by writ.

A couple of years back, my 80 year old uncle.........on what would be his last or next-to-last trip "up home" to hunt deer.........had to pass on the biggest buck he'd ever seen in the woods in his life. Why?? Too far?? Too much brush?? Not a safe shot?? Moving too fast?? Nope. he had to pass a deer that would have been the buck of his hunting lifetime because Gary Alt said that deer didn't have enough points on his rack to be a "shooter". THAT'S PURE CRAP!!!!!!!

I gots to agree with this. Well said. Along with the does, deer hunting tradition has been completely eradicated here in this state. It's completely ridiculous to force this trophy hunting crap on everybody. I like to "trophy hunt" myself, but that doesn't mean everybody should have to do it. Heck, just last night these stupid rules probably cost me yet another buck as I am trying to decide if this 8 points broken brow tine is 1" long while he's cruising by in bow range. This big buck AR mentality is way out of hand and I can't even imagine what it's going to be like in 10-20 years.

[Texan_Til_I_Die]

What I see happening at my place (a few hundred acres that we manage) is that the deer we let go (young bucks) are spreading out into the surrounding areas of deer decimation and we can't hold (for the most part) anything over at all. We're managing and saving bucks..........only to have them disperse, never to be seen on our place again.

Heck, I'm managing 7000 acres, doing a massive amount of supplemental feeding, and still can't keep all of the bucks "at home". !!!

Fortunately, most of the neighbors don't deer hunt much, and those that do are generally good about not shooting young bucks. But I do have one neighbor that only owns 100 acres, and of that 100, about 30 acres is brush that borders our ranch. And of course, he's the one that pulled a 170 incher over the fence and shot it opening weekend. Oh well...

[Guest adrenaline_junky]

O.K.,,,,with out trying to crucify Gary Alt and the rest of the game commission,...lets address the real problem,....and that is the PA HUnter Mentality,..always blaming it on the other guy,..and the "i gotta get my buck" attitude is what the problem is,....nobody is forcing guys to hunt and harvest they way they do,...they do it by themselves,..it's so much easier just to blame someone else,..HOW about the hunters taking some responsibility,...but NO that would make to much sense. I've worked with different management programs all over the country and, The first part of any and I said ANY proper management program is RATIO,...is PA's ratio better now than it was,....it sounds to me if you are seeing so many spikes on the "strut10" ranch,....you need to do something about proper birthing times,....this is exactly the opposite of what most PA hunters are saying though,........

...Yes,..numbers are drastically low, and times have changed along with alot of things like,...pressure, private land, longer seasons, bag limits, antler restrictions and so many other things that are to numerous to mention,...but if the PA hunters will open their eyes and unite and quit crying all the time,...something may happen for the better,....REMEMBER, we are the FINAL judges,...we are the ones who make the decisions that matter,.......TAKE SOME RESPONSIBILITY.

rs

That is a very good point. You know how many people i hear complaining about how they never see big bucks or didn't see but three deer all season long. I always ask them how many they shot last year. This is what they say "well i shot as many deer as I was allowed 3 does and a buck." Theres the problem right there. Then they shoot the first buck that walks by thats legal and complain about not ever seeing big ones. I buy every doe tag I can get my hands on. However, I'll only shoot one doe to put in the freezer the rest of the tags go through the shredder. I figure if I shred them no one can fill them.

[REALSCENT]

Hey Strut,....I'm proud to be from the great state of Pennsylvania,...have been my whole life,...I was part of the problem for MANY,MANY years in PA,....now things look a whole lot differently. We are getting the results of 25 years of bad management,......not just the last 5 or 6. The last 5 or 6 may have just been the nails in the coffin,..but we were chopping away at it for alot of years and our overabundant herd was so strong that it wasn't as noticeable as it is now,... It's not to late to do something about it,....I've been trying my butt off,...creating habitat, creating food, and lessening the pressure on thousands of acres,..but all that stuff is easy and worldly,...but again I ask you ,...how is the best way to educate our fellow hunters??? This is not about trophy hunting,...and the antler restrictions are not about trophy hunting,...................

Pat

[snapper]

I agree that its not Gary Alt pulling the trigger...its the hunters! If that many hunters are still killing that many does...then that tells me that the majority don't see a problem with the deer numbers.

I personally passed on a few "legal" bucks this season and I seen at least one legal buck on the strut10 ranch while bear hunting. Seen alot more does than anything...but the deer are still around.

I don't buy into the theory that not everyone wants to shoot a trophy...some may say they don't care about antlers...I call the BS detector on that one. Ex: your out at your fav. rock/stump and dose off for a few mins. Wake up to see a year and a half old 4 pt. and a 3 1/2 year old 140" 10 pt both standing broadside feeding and have no idea you are there...Which one are you shooting. Assuming there is no point restrictions and your allowed to take 1 buck...Which one are you shooting?

Anyone that says (honestly) the 4 pointer is full of it...IMO

The point? Everyone wants that big trophy rack...but not everyone is willing to do their part in growing it.

I still say we've beaten this horse...its not getting back up anytime soon. The PGC had control for 70 years...lets give Alt's plan a little time...alot of hunter wanted to hang him after the first season.

[REALSCENT]

Here, Here,...........well said.

[ruttinbuc]

The point? Everyone wants that big trophy rack...but not everyone is willing to do their part in growing it.

Isn't that the truth?

[Strut10]

Agree to strongly disagree is all a lot of us are going to be able to do here.

We can do all the food & habitat programs we want. If the good genetics are removed from the gene pool the first year they grow antlers it's all for nothing. Yes......we can buy & burn one of 1 million doe tags if it makes us feel we've made an important contribution. Gary Alt's not pulling the trigger. But he IS the enabler. He mandated the issue of so many tags. Educating the hunters is great.....but worthless. Kinda like smoking..........EVERYONE knows the deal...........some will listen to the educated advice and some won't. There's no doubt that the majority of hunters would like to shoot a buck with a nice rack...........but not at the expense of NOT shooting ANY buck the other 9 years out of 10. The antlers are not that important to many, many, many guys. Getting on board with Alt's plan was like voting for a politician who promised "change" but forgot to mention just what that "change" was. Alt was going to go ahead and "do something even if it wasn't right" and this is what we got. If anyone can show me any measure of how the herd is any healthier now than it was 10 years ago........I'm all ears. If anyone can tell me the advantage to having smaller racks on 1 1/2 year old bucks and a decreasing occurrence of browtines (both of which we've seen)..............I'm interested. There are a few great bucks running around PA now. We can credit those to Gary Alt, I suppose, if we want to.........whether they are products of his program, or of posted land or of somebody's own personal program. Whatever. But the quality of the accross-the-board average buck is tanking. I'm seeing it on my own property with my own eyes. We've been crucifying Alt from day one because we knew this day was coming way back then.

[snapper]

Agree to strongly disagree is all a lot of us are going to be able to do here.

I agree with that!

I like Alt's program so far...seeing bigger bucks (which means healthier deer) and less does and for the most part...bigger does (again, healthier deer).

Don, maybe...hear me out...maybe the reason your seeing smaller racked 1 1/2 bucks and bucks with no browes is because you, your brother, dad and whoever else is hunting the Strut10 ranch...aren't killing enough does. Maybe the plan works (maybe) and there are place acrossed the board like yours (posted land protecting does) that not allowing the plan to work properly?

How do we know unless all of us get on board? We won't agree on this so I'll just quit with the agree to disagree!

I personally enjoy seeing fewer bucks (and does) but better bucks when I do see them. I don't need to shoot a buck every year to be a hunter...I'll go without before shooting a "legal" buck.

[oldblue]

PA a trophy state??

It is very easy for some hunters in some parts of PA to agree with Alt's program because they still have an abudance of deer and are seeing both doe and bigger racked bucks. The problem is that in MOST parts of the state we are seeing neither big racks or doe. It is extremely hard to get the young hunters, our future, to take an interest in deer hunting when they don't see deer. How can you ask young hunters to sit for 7, 8, 10 or 12 hours and see nothing. My own son hunted two season and said save your money Dad I don't really like going and not seeing anything. That is what Dr. Alt's program has done for hunting in PA.

Agree to disagree.

[Strut10]

Don, maybe...hear me out...maybe the reason your seeing smaller racked 1 1/2 bucks and bucks with no browes is because you, your brother, dad and whoever else is hunting the Strut10 ranch...aren't killing enough does.

I'm not sure how the number of does killed in our area is going to affect the rack size of our 1 1/2 old bucks. There is actually a decent doe harvest in our area. Just not on my 113 acres in the middle. Every deer management plan calls for a "sanctuary" area. That's what we do. At my nearest estimate, our local her buck:doe ratio is running right around 1:3..........from what I have observeed and others ,as well. That ain't too bad. Couple that with ZERO competition for food. The lack of browtines translates into the result of killing off the good genetic bucks at 1 1/2 years. In the 4-point areas, a deer is basically not legal without brows (or at least one). So he gets killed. One more browtine gene out of the pool its first year.

I personally enjoy seeing fewer bucks (and does) but better bucks when I do see them. I don't need to shoot a buck every year to be a hunter...I'll go without before shooting a "legal" buck.

I like seeing big bucks, too. Heck.......my personal minimum is waaay above Alt's requirement and I've shot one buck since 2002. But I'm just getting good and tired of seeing the quality of the MAJORITY of our bucks go into the crapper. A couple a year slip through the cracks and make nice racks. But I'd like somebody to explain to me how (using the 2006 season for example) I can see 40-some different bucks in one archery season............ FIVE of which were 6-pointers OVER 15" inside spread but NOT ONE of the 40 had more than 8 points............how is this a sign of good genetics?? The 1 1/2 year old 7 or 8-pointer is all but a thing of the past here. You've got a couple shooter bucks and a whole herd of spikes and tiny forkies. Wasn't like that 10, 15 or 20 years ago.

[snapper]

I'm not sure how the number of does killed in our area is going to affect the rack size of our 1 1/2 old bucks. There is actually a decent doe harvest in our area. Just not on my 113 acres in the middle. Every deer management plan calls for a "sanctuary" area. That's what we do. At my nearest estimate, our local her buck:doe ratio is running right around 1:3..........from what I have observeed and others

I don't know what the doe harvest is like out your way...but from one drive of 5 guys on the first day of bear season...I personally seen at the very least 30 does come off of your hill. Thats alot of deer on 100 acres...wouldn't you think they'll do some damage on the food source? If so, wouldn't lack of good nutrition grow smaller racks?

I don't know what the answer is...I do know that a few of the places I hunt...I'm seeing less doe and more "good" bucks. I know the deer herd isn't the same everywhere...don't know how to change/fix that. Just like the hunters who killed all the deer in those areas...the hunters in those areas need to stop hunting those places and let the herd come back. Seeing that PGC sells out of doe tags every year...my guess is that most hunters really don't care or don't think its a prob.

I don't know if Alt's/PGC plan is a good plan or not...I'm not a wildlife biologist and don't want to tell them how to do their jobs. I just know that I hated seeing 4 and small 6 pointers in the back of trucks!

[Texan_Til_I_Die]

...I know the deer herd isn't the same everywhere...don't know how to change/fix that...

It's really not that difficult. You need to set bag limits, season lengths, AR's, etc on a regional, or better yet county by county, basis. All it takes is a willingness to invest the time and money into getting ACCURATE deer census data, and then using that data to institute SCIENTIFICALLY based regulations.

[jm23494]

We go from having a 2 week buck season (rifle) and a three day doe season to having a 2 week open season where people shoot anything that moves. From my math if you hunt doe for 2 weeks you are going to have more opportunities than you would if you had 3 days. I continue to see less deer than I did before we began the two week combined season. Before we switched I was continually seeing 8 point buck with wide racks each and every season. Since the program has begun I have seen a total of 2 buck with tiny racks in 3 or 4 years (I can't even remember when we started this program). To me that speaks words. I hunt on my families 130 acres that is surrounded by other private land that only the landowners hunt. So pressure and over hunting are not an issue in my area.

In the WMU that I hunt there were 28,000 doe tags alloted for that area. I still fail to see how we can distrubute that many tags when we do not have that many deer. When I traveled home for christmas I saw 4 deer grazing behind my parents house. That was 4 more than I saw all season!

[Ohiobucks]

Ohio I guess is considered a "trophy state" as far as whitetails go, but I can flat guarantee you that not every county in Ohio is a "trophy" county. It all depends on where you're at. 88 counties in Ohio, I would say 25-30 of them are letting you shoot the maximum of 6 deer this past year, with only 1 being an antlered deer. These are considered Ohio's top deer counties. I live in Morrow county which falls well short of what I would call great deer hunting. 1 county over into Knox and your seeing some pretty dang good hunting ground. 2 counties over into Coshocton is some of the absolute best whitetail hunting anywhere in the state. Hunting 115 acres around my home would produce little to almost no sightings of mature bucks, but head 30 miles east and your chances improve dramatically. Like real estate, location is key.

West Virginia is not considered a trophy state, but there are still some big ones coming out of there from time to time. Same could be said about NY or Virginia.

Are there no big deer at all in Pa? On this site alone I've seen some pictures of pretty big Pa bucks taken this year.....

[ruttinbuc]

NJ is the same way. It is all about location. Unfortunately, the properties are not large enough to try and manage. Without everyone in the same game you are beating yourself up trying.

Big bucks are where you find them and not all bucks will become big ones. Some areas will never produce big deer for whatever reason.

[PotashRLS]

Wow, quite the reading on this thread!!! Being in Wisconsin, and having hunted through our Earn A Buck and Herd Reduction Seasons since their inception in 1996, most other states are in their infant stages of highly aggressive deer number management. This "sour pill" is like any other candy, eventually the middle gets a little sweeter. I would love to see a one buck a year limit, regardless of weapon. I would love to see a point restriction to help increase the older age classes of bucks. We don't have either yet.

Some thoughts..........

We as QDMers and Sportsmen have invested countless hours into conversations and indepth heart to hearts with our local and regional WDNR wildlife biologists and one reoccurring theme that always is preached is this.........The Dept of Natural Resources is responsible to manage the state's resources for the good of and in the best interest of it's citizens. It's citizens is EVERYONE. Hunters, non hunters, landowners, non landowners, fishermen, homeowners, renters, you name it. The management is to also ensure the ecological co-existence of all it's resources, not just game animals. That is why the Wisconsin DNR does not put a lot of emphasis on the size of a buck's antlers.

Size of a Buck's Anters............There is no way any biologist or hunter can visually gauge with any certainty the genetic superiority or inferiority of a 1 1/2 yr old buck and it is arguable for 2 1/2 yr old bucks. Many spikes could grow into B&C bucks given the chance to survive and many forks, sixes or eights may never be more than a 140" P&Y. Without enough age, one will never be certain. A buck and doe is stamped with it's genetic code at birth and carries that until it dies. It can be enhanced and/or suppressed by various outside factors but it can never be changed. Killing a bunch of nice 3 1/2 yr old bucks during hunting season is not killing off your genetically superior breeder bucks. They had the same potential as they did when they were fawns and 1 1/2 yr old "scrubs". Age is the key ingredient. Reducing the deer numbers ensures herd health, habitat regeneration and the lessening of breeding between deer families.