Mil-Dot Scopes

[toddyboman]

Can anyone help here....

What is the point of having extra power when only the mil-dots are only accurate at one certain power...:confused:

To my understand the center cross hair would be accurate at all powers but the actual dots are ONLY accurate at one certain power.

Example 6-24x40 mil-dot scope....The mil-dots are ONLY accurate at 10 power...whats the point of having the 11 to 24 power if you can't use the mil-dots....

I dont get it can anyone shed some light on this for me....:confused:

Thanks

[hangunnr]

Mil dots are a ranging device not an aiming device. A mil typically subtends 3.6" in at 100yds. Knowing that, you will be able to range known size targets at different distances. Having the milling reticle set for a single power allows the measurements to be more accurate. You simply set your scope at 10X measure the size of the target with the milling reticle and set your elevation for that distance then you can crank up the power to better see your intended target.

For instance...

A man size target is roughly 72" tall or 20 mil at 100yds. If you measure that target with your milling reticle at 10 mil you know that target is about 200yds away. If you range the man size target at 5 mil that tells you the target is approx. 400yds away.

A mil dot reticle is virtually useless when engaging targets of unkown size.

hangunnr

[toddyboman]

I understand/know all that......

This is how I use my mil-dots.... I know my cross hairs are zeros at 300 yards.... So I know that the first dot ABOVE my cross hairs is close to 100 yards.....and I know my first dot BELOW the cross hairs is a bit more than 400 yards and so ( I have a sheet that tells me exaclty)....

Since I know that I then know what dot to use to AIM with....again maybe thats where I am going about it wrong.... But I think its easier and I can be more accurate using the dots to hold on a target versus guessing how much to hold over or under a target....:)

[hangunnr]

Ok then...

If you already know you're not using the reticle as it was intended what do you expect out of your scope? The way you're using the scope it's gonna take mucho range time at each power setting of the scope to find out just where the bullets are gonna impact in relation to the dots.

You'd be much better suited with one of the Burris Ballistic Plex reticles. They provide a drop chart for standard bullet weights at known velocities.

hangunnr

[toddyboman]

I do appreciate all your telling me

Maybe I am wrong in what I want and understand...:rolleyes::(

I have a ballistic calculator.....I enter data about my rifle and load and it tells me my mill aiming points.

So could I do the same with any other scope and mil-dot set up?? Regardless of what the mil-dots are accurate at(power)??:confused:

[Guest gunny97]

advice

your getting spot on advice. either use the scope on 10 power and what the scope is made to accomplis or be ready to spend a lot of time at the range and create a range card .

make it easy set it at 10 and zero dead on at 100 then shoot 200 using the mil dot for that range if it doesnt give you a kill shot on paper then your bullet isnt going to work anyway in that gun

Mil DOts are typically set for a certain bullet wieght but the manufacture doesnt ell you what bullet maker some times . call them and ask then shoot that bullet to match the scope . hopefully the gun will like that bullet

and i do agree with the previous comment about burris

by the way hornady makes custom ammo that shoots good on mil dot scopes too

[toddyboman]

Mil DOts are typically set for a certain bullet wieght but the manufacture doesnt ell you what bullet maker some times . call them and ask then shoot that bullet to match the scope . hopefully the gun will like that bullet

I understand that

I have a ballistic calcualtor program taht allows me to enter the bullet type, weight of bullet, amount of powder and type, muzzle velocity, my zero and some other stuff. By entering all that info I can know where each mil is accurate at

[Leo]

Ok, a DUH! check.

If you need the mildots at the range you are shooting, the scope will be at MAX power any way.

Know where the specific bullet and load hits at specific ranges at max magnification and you are done.

Using mildots to range variable sized game is futile. Use a quality rangefinder and know where the bullet hits at your scopes maximum magnification at that range.

Use mildots like they are range pins on a bow. IE. The crosshairs are your 100yd pin and the first dot is your 300. IME, that's the easiest and most useful use of them.

Rangefinding reticles all have the Achilles heel of targets that are bigger or smaller than they are designed for. Frankly, the variation that exists in the real world, makes them not accurate enough for ranges beyond 300yds to be worth anything.

Now if you know where that bullet hits in relation to your mildots at a given range at max magnification that's a different story all together.

Bottom line, if you don't plan on shooting anything beyond the 300yd mark you probably won't appreciate the usefulness of mildots. Maximum Point Blank sighting in has you covered.

If you are interested in going beyond 300 yards. Mildots are quite useful.

[toddyboman]

If you need the mildots at the range you are shooting, the scope will be at MAX power any way.

Know where the specific bullet and load hits at specific ranges at max magnification and you are done.

Are you saying at max power the mil-dots are accurate??

Depending on the scope....The mil-dots may only be accurate at 10 or 12, or 15 power but he scope may have power up to 20, 24 or 30... So at max power the mil-dots would not be accurate.....

Use mildots like they are range pins on a bow. IE. The crosshairs are your 100yd pin and the first dot is your 300. IME, that's the easiest and most useful use of them.

thats what I'm trying to attempt. But my problem is finding a scope that has more than 10 or 15 max power and the mil-dots are accurate at the max power of 20+.

I want 20 or more power and for the mil-dots to be accurate at the max power

Maybe I'm not making sense....maybe what I am wanting is not an option....Since the mil-dots are for range estimations and not aiming points:o:o

Thanks everyone for the input:)

[LETMGROW]

To me all this Mil-Dot hoopla is just another gimmick to sell another toy. Possibly, under IDEAL conditions, it would be effective. Probably not.

I much prefer to use a rangefinder and adjust for distance with my own holdover. This is why I feel it is so important to know your gun and bullet combination. Sighting in at ranges you intend to shoot is important. If you have never fired at a target 300 yds. away why would you shoot at a game animal at that distance?

The only cure for this is range time and practice.

[doubleA]

Maybe I'm not making sense....maybe what I am wanting is not an option....Since the mil-dots are for range estimations and not aiming points:o:o

The mil-dot reticle is first and foremost a range finding a reticle and secondly when time/conditions dont permit can be used as hold points, of course in miliradians and fractions thereof.

The most accurate way to shoot at any distance is to know the ballistics of the particular cartridge, shot from your rifle and make a MOA chart. Then at any given distance dial in the MOA on your scope adjustments.

For example, I shoot 3 basic yardages with a 308 win, zeroed in at 100yds my 168gr handload needs +4.5 moa elevation at 300yds and 10.25 moa at 500yds. I simply crank my elevation up 14 clicks up and 41 clicks respectively. This is using 1/4 moa turrets. When doing this I will have a dead on hold.

Different scope makes will differ on what magnification the scope needs to be set at to make accurate range estimations in milliradians. I use Leupold Mark 4's 8.5x25 and 4.5x14's and they are used at the max for ranging.

What I gather you are trying to do is find a chart telling you what dot is used for a certain yardage with a certain cartridge when using a mil-dot reticle. Well frankly it doesnt exist, you will most likely have to shoot various ranges to find out. Again, holdovers are ok, but not the most precise way, they sometimes get you close but in the end dialing in elevation and windage is much more accurate.

[Leo]

I am gonna try to clear up the magnification issue for you.

Hope this helps.

If the variable power scope has a Mil Dot reticle that supposedly only "works" for 10x.

Then at 5x magnification each Mil Dot counts as two Mils.

At 20x magnification each Mil Dot counts as one half Mil.

Those are the mil counts you plug into your ranging formula.

Now for the issue of using Mil Dots to aim.

You must shoot your rifle/load combination at the range to determine where in relation to the dots your bullet impacts.

This information is ONLY good for ONE magnification setting. If you have an adjustable objective, you better have it set for the distance you are shooting at. Parallax is a much bigger issue with "holdover" type aiming than it is for rezeroing with target turrets.

[toddyboman]

I am gonna try to clear up the magnification issue for you.

Hope this helps.

If the variable power scope has a Mil Dot reticle that supposedly only "works" for 10x.

Then at 5x magnification each Mil Dot counts as two Mils.

At 20x magnification each Mil Dot counts as one half Mil.

OK....Let me see if this is correct...

Lets say I have 5x20x40 mil dot scope.

The mil dots are accurate at 10 power meaning they are 3.6 inches apart at 100 yards.

so at 20 power are the mil dots not 1.8 inches apart at 100 yards?

If the above is true.....this I should be able to use half as many dots at 20 power....

Mean at 10 power 1 full dot down in good at 400 yards

At 20 power 1/2 a dot is good at 400 yards??

[toddyboman]

To me all this Mil-Dot hoopla is just another gimmick to sell another toy. Possibly, under IDEAL conditions, it would be effective. Probably not.

I much prefer to use a rangefinder and adjust for distance with my own holdover. This is why I feel it is so important to know your gun and bullet combination. Sighting in at ranges you intend to shoot is important. If you have never fired at a target 300 yds. away why would you shoot at a game animal at that distance?

The only cure for this is range time and practice.

I think mil-dot scopes are way more than a gimmick

Are they ideal for hunting big game....maybe not... But for hunting prairie dogs or shooting off the bench they are great...and that is what I use mine for

I have one gun set up with a 5x15x40 mil-dot scope. And I KNOW the cross hairs are zeroed at 300 yards. Then the first mil dot down is accurate at 400....then 2 1/5 mil dots down is accurate at 500 yards...

So using my dots is MUCH more accurate than just holding over....IMHO.

Try and hold over a golf ball 3 inches at 400 yards with 10 + mph cross wind:eek:.....then try it with a mil dot scope :)

[LETMGROW]

Is anyone else as confused as I am? If you knew all this and have used the Mil-Dot scope all along, why did you ask the question?

[toddyboman]

Is anyone else as confused as I am? If you knew all this and have used the Mil-Dot scope all along, why did you ask the question?

Yes.....Well for one we have strayed so far from my original question its really confussing

My Origianal question was....

What is the point of having extra power when only the mil-dots are only accurate at one certain power...:confused:

To my understand the center cross hair would be accurate at all powers but the actual dots are ONLY accurate at one certain power.

Example 6-24x40 mil-dot scope....The mil-dots are ONLY accurate at 10 power...whats the point of having the 11 to 24 power if you can't use the mil-dots....

I dont get it can anyone shed some light on this for me....:confused:

so I am guess no one really knows :o

[LETMGROW]

OK, now I understand?? LOL

Lynn

[toddyboman]

One more time....

I know a mil-dot scope is for ranging yards. Not necessary for aiming

I know the dots are 3.6 inches apart at 100 yards on the scopes determined power....some that is 10 power, some its 12, or some its 15

What I do not know or understand is:

IF I had a Bushnell elite 4200 8-24x40 scope and the mil-dots are accurate at 12 power (that's what Bushnell tells me)....That means the mil-dots are 3.6 inches apart at 100 yards. So what is the point of the 13-24 power if your mil-dots are no longer accurate......Yes the cross hairs will still be zeroed the at what ever yardage you zeroed it at....but the mil dots will be off.

SO can one assume that at 24 power the mil-dots are not 1.8 inches apart since the power doubled??

I do not have this scope so I can't go to the range to test my theory.....And I don't wanna buy the scope only to figure out I am way wrong

Thanks for everyone's help/comments so far

[LETMGROW]

I guess here is where we have to agree to disagree. And I am not trying to start an argument.

There are a lot of range finding scopes on the market, although I don't think as many as there used to be. From the advertising I have seen it seems as though the shooter is using the dots to align the game with his estimated range. Perhaps I am wrong, but that was the perception I got.

IE: Michael Wadell in a commercial for a particular scope mfg. I am sorry, and I know M.W. knows more than I do but how can a scope know what load ,primer, bullet weight or barrel length you are using?

This is why I said I think the whole Mil-Dot idea is hoopla.

I will reiterate, the best way to know where your shot is going to go is to practice with your equipment and get to know it well.

I can't imagine the confusion which would be caused if you had two or three Mil-Dot scope rifle combinations in your arsenal.

I have shot quite a bit in the wind. This, believe it or not is quite fun. Strange what happens, but you sure get to know your gun/ bullet characterestics. I know a lot of shooters wouldn't even think about shooting at a target in a 30 mph cross wind, but try it sometime. It adds a whole new dimension to shooting.

[toddyboman]

I guess here is where we have to agree to disagree. And I am not trying to start an argument.

agreed

There are a lot of range finding scopes on the market, although I don't think as many as there used to be. From the advertising I have seen it seems as though the shooter is using the dots to align the game with his estimated range. Perhaps I am wrong, but that was the perception I got.

IE: Michael Wadell in a commercial for a particular scope mfg. I am sorry, and I know M.W. knows more than I do but how can a scope know what load ,primer, bullet weight or barrel length you are using?

This is why I said I think the whole Mil-Dot idea is hoopla.

I would have to think that scope is not a "true" Mil-Dot reticle. I know the scope and commercial you are talking about....And I think you have to use a certain amount of powder and bullet weight for that specific scope the work that way....and to my knowledge it is for ML only.....

Now there is some scopes out there that are caliber specific that do somewhat of the same thing....

But I don't feel/think those are "true" mil-dot scopes

I will reiterate, the best way to know where your shot is going to go is to practice with your equipment and get to know it well.

agreed....Range time is the best way to know.

I can't imagine the confusion which would be caused if you had two or three Mil-Dot scope rifle combinations in your arsenal.

I have 3 rifles with mil-dot scopes. Really its not to confusing. But I hardly EVER use them for hunting(big game) .....the most hunting they do is on prairie dogs and that's not really hunting but just shooting.....:D

All my rifles with mil-dot scopes are for bench use. Shooting paper, golf balls, blue rock, or whatever else.

Way to much going on in a hunting situation to use a mil-dot scope. IMHO.

I have shot quite a bit in the wind. This, believe it or not is quite fun. Strange what happens, but you sure get to know your gun/ bullet characterestics. I know a lot of shooters wouldn't even think about shooting at a target in a 30 mph cross wind, but try it sometime. It adds a whole new dimension to shooting.

Yes shooting in the wind is fun. Here is where I really like the mil-dots.... I can hold a certain mil-dot on the target and see how much off I am and know how much to compensate. Now if I did not have the mil-dots I would just be guessing and trying to hold over the same....Which I think is harder to do, which I will not be as accurate with

ANYWHO......

I guess my original question will have to be answered at a later date....:):cool:

[wtnhunt]

This thread has been interesting to follow along. Never before thought about the power changing the poi with graduated reticle or mil dots. Guessing the same would hold true for the b-plex reticle burris scopes? Will have to do some experimenting with my AR with the b-plex scope now to see if changing the power has any significance in shooting over different ranges.

[toddyboman]

This thread has been interesting to follow along. Never before thought about the power changing the poi with graduated reticle or mil dots. Guessing the same would hold true for the b-plex reticle burris scopes? Will have to do some experimenting with my AR with the b-plex scope now to see if changing the power has any significance in shooting over different ranges.

We have kinda went in circles with this thread. lol:p:D:D

Be sure to let us know the results of your experiments :)

[LETMGROW]

I feel like a superstar here! I have never been quoted so much in my life. LOL

We kinda had fun with this one.

Lynn

[toddyboman]

Hopefully this weekend the weather will be nice and I may be able to shed some light on this topic/question..... I have located a guy with scope 8-24x40 mildot scope and the mil-dots are accurate at 12 power. We have a 500 yard range set up at our farm so.....some shooting is in the weekend plans.... Hopefully it is not negative degrees out so I can test my hypothesis. :)

[Leo]

Hopefully this weekend the weather will be nice and I may be able to shed some light on this topic/question..... I have located a guy with scope 8-24x40 mildot scope and the mil-dots are accurate at 12 power. We have a 500 yard range set up at our farm so.....some shooting is in the weekend plans.... Hopefully it is not negative degrees out so I can test my hypothesis. :)

I applaud the effort to actually go out and see for yourself how it works.

I respectfully need to point out that you are consistently referring to the "accuracy" of mil-dots at a given power. This honestly is quite confusing to me. In a traditionally manufactured US style Mil dot scope. The crosshairs are not magnified with the target. The magnification power affects what the mil dot spacing represents at a given distance but it does not effect the "accuracy" of the dots. If you understand how the change in magnification affects what the dots represent, the results are predictable and repeatable. So by my understanding they are indeed still "accurate". They just represent different spacings at different magnifications.

Since you are going out to discover this for yourself, you may find these suggestions helpful.

1. Even though the scope is supposedly made to represent a true Mil at 12 power (ie. 1/1000th of a radian). You may find that the actual setting to achieve a true mil is slightly off the 12 power setting. Test that first and determine what settings will give you a full mil, 1/2 mil and 2 mils.

2. If you try to use the Mil dots as aiming points on a scope with an Adjustable Objective. It is absolutely crucial you have the Adjustable Objective set at the correct distance. Parallax error gets worse the further you try to aim off center. An AO helps control parallax error.