elkoholic Posted January 2, 2008 Report Share Posted January 2, 2008 This is not intended to "stir the pot", but after the hunting in an enclosure post (now locked) where the P&Y definition of fair chase is quoted I can only wonder how many of the current entries should be disqualified. Aside from the fence issue (let's not go there again) there is the use of electronic aids. Scouting cameras to aid in location of deer are taboo. A good example (although I am not sure if any of their deer are entered, either P&Y or B&C) would be the Drury brothers who are very vocal about their use of scouting cameras to aid in the harvest of the biggest deer they have taken. After watching a monster buck on video, via a scouting camera, they put up a blind in that spot the next day and shoot the same deer in the same spot. Hmmmm. It is obvious that their biggest bucks to date were harvested with the aid of electronic devices. Not enough time to do it the old fashion way you say, but still hours are spent on the good old computer (maybe on the forums here). I personally feel that the use of technology has taken the word fair out of the equation. Just tools you say, well so are laser guided, heat seeking missiles. There needs to be a line drawn somewhere. Certainly not if it precludes using my tools of preference you say. Hmmm. Can you say conundrum? Surely you would think that human intelligence along with the technology of being able to launch deadly projectiles beyond kissing range would be enough of an advantage. Now, can we have an intelligent discussion about the use of modern technology or should we just lock this post or you can just ignore it. Hmmm. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Randy Posted January 2, 2008 Report Share Posted January 2, 2008 Where do we end the technology? Muskets and round balls? There are more deer around than ever before. The humane thing to do is try our best to keep them to a reasonable level. They eventually will eat themselves out of house and home. We can sit and debate over technology and where it should end but, nothing will change. I'm not saying I agree or disagree either way. Deer are very smart critters, I have an observation tower that I sit in quite often to try and pattern a big buck. Although I have killed a few, it was never the next day after seeing one. What's the difference between sitting in a place, watching, and or glassing or putting out a camera. If you put out a camera you are leaving scent, maybe glassing is to much technology as well. I see what you are trying to say, i just don't think anything will change. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Texan_Til_I_Die Posted January 2, 2008 Report Share Posted January 2, 2008 Modern technology aside, I have several issues with B&C and P&Y and their definition of "fair chase". I like to equate their attitudes with those of certain fly fishermen who think that any fish caught by any other means is unworthy of consideration. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ruttinbuc Posted January 2, 2008 Report Share Posted January 2, 2008 There are more deer around than ever before......I can make a strong argument against this statement. Not true where I live and hunt. Far from it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Randy Posted January 2, 2008 Report Share Posted January 2, 2008 There are more deer around than ever before......I can make a strong argument against this statement. Not true where I live and hunt. Far from it.What does this have to do with fair chase? Let's try and stick to the topic. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wtnhunt Posted January 2, 2008 Report Share Posted January 2, 2008 I dont see a problem with the Drury's or anyone else using scouting cameras and being able to enter their deer in the books, but then I dont write the rules. I kind of have to agree with Randy, a scouting tool is just that whether it be cameras, topos, long range scopes or glassing etc. They all can be helpful, but like you say, who draws the lines and where? Just because you get a pic of a deer, does not as most of us know mean that you will ever even see that deer, however it can be great for patterning a specific deer or having a better idea what is there and how to set your expectations for a season. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Andrea Posted January 2, 2008 Report Share Posted January 2, 2008 Tred Barta comes to mind when I read this........... He thinks that the only fair chase is with his beloved long bow. Any type of scent killer is wrong ( he only uses baking soda and the outdoor air), any type of GPS device is wrong, any type of trail camera, range finder, TREE STANDS, blinds, etc etc is wrong in his opinion. And anyone who uses these methods aren't really hunters. :rolleyes: Yet it's funny he uses all the latest technology on his high-dollar boat when he goes fishing. ......................WHATEVER. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
colescott1 Posted January 2, 2008 Report Share Posted January 2, 2008 Pope and Young is only for "Record" animals....has nothing to do with managing the herd for acceptable levels... Ie, does, young bucks, etc. Hunting is what you make it. If you only want trophy animals, that are regarded by certain people based on being taken by certain rules, then so be it. If you hunt for the enjoyment, meat, etc, and aren't in it for the horn porn.... that road is always open as well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dogdoc Posted January 2, 2008 Report Share Posted January 2, 2008 i think scouting cameras are a great tool--yep they probably help the hunter in scouting. I know though that when I see a big buck on the camera i'm more apt to let a smaller buck walk holding out for the big one. Trust me--there have been many monster bucks that I have pics of that I have never seen while hunting. I have one that is constantly on my food plot--probably every night but I have never seen him during hunting. Cameras are also a great management tool--they can give you a rough estimate of your herd numbers and age and even fawning rates. I don't think they even compare to hunting a high fence. Heck--unless you hunt with a homemade bow and a flintlock we've all taken advantage of improved technology. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
buckee Posted January 2, 2008 Report Share Posted January 2, 2008 I also have a problem with the Issue of "Fair Chase", being defined by private clubs, being brought up as gospel for all of the hunting community to observe and practice, instead of State or Provincial laws. All hunters must also be aware that the Pope & Young "Club" and Boone & Crockett "Club" are just that ..."CLUBS", that have their own set of hunting rules pertaining to ethics, fair chase, and hunter responsibilities, for the purpose of scoring only, and for no other reason. Their Rules and regulations, should not be confused with State or Provincial laws pertaining to hunting, and in no way should reflect on any lawful hunter's ethics pertaining to his/her hunt.. ............................................... ARE YOU FOLLOWING FAIR CHASE ETHICS? Ask Yourself . . . Am I taking a shot that is within my range? Am I showing respect for hunting? Am I taking a safe shot? Am I doing what is legal? Am I showing respect for wildlife? Am I showing respect for the environment while hunting? If my friends saw me doing this, would I be embarrassed? Am I doing the right thing? .................................................... WHAT MAKES A SPORTSMAN? Fair chase allows the hunter to pursue game, using hunting skills, knowledge of wildlife and outdoor savvy, without putting game at an unfair disadvantage. Following the rules of fair chase makes you more than a hunter, it makes you a "sportsman." Some actions may be legal and still seem unfair to some, based on your abilities, your equipment and the animals' abilities to get away. A Sportsmen respects wildlife and should never do anything that doesn't "feel right." Whenever hunters doubt whether actions are legal, responsible or safe, they should give the advantage to wildlife. ............................................................... WHY DO WE HAVE HUNTING LAWS? Hunting laws do at least one of the following four things: 1. Protect people and property.. 2. Protect wildlife. 3. Ensure fair chase. 4. Ensure a fair distribution of game. 1. Protect people and property. The requirement to pass a hunter education course, before hunting, is an example of a law that protects people. 2. Protect wildlife Laws that set hunting season dates and methods of hunting, protect wildlife. 3. Ensure a fair chase Laws that limit hunters' "method of take" insure fair chase. 4. Ensure a fair distribution of game Bag limits and other laws insure that all hunters have an opportunity to bag game. .................................................. Wildlife can't speak for itself... we must be the ones to speak up As a hunter and a conservationist, you need to speak up for wildlife interests. Keep informed with what is going on in your area and around the country: Read the newspaper, subscribe to hot lines and talk to those in the know. Study the impacts on wildlife of pending decisions. Be involved: Attend meetings, get to know the people responsible for decisions and become a positive, persistent force for conservation. Follow-up: When decision-makers make decisions that benefit wildlife, let them know what great choices they made. When they make bad decisions, don't make them or other hunters abiding by those laws, your enemies, but let them know that you hope they'll consider wildlife next time. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dawg Posted January 2, 2008 Report Share Posted January 2, 2008 :confused::confused:..........it's all a matter of opinion. Some will argue that it isn't and some will argue it is. Me?? I think it is still considered fair chase as long as the animal isn't pinned, no matter if it's 5 acres or 15,000 acres. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
buckee Posted January 2, 2008 Report Share Posted January 2, 2008 i think scouting cameras are a great tool--yep they probably help the hunter in scouting. I know though that when I see a big buck on the camera i'm more apt to let a smaller buck walk holding out for the big one. Trust me--there have been many monster bucks that I have pics of that I have never seen while hunting. I have one that is constantly on my food plot--probably every night but I have never seen him during hunting. Cameras are also a great management tool--they can give you a rough estimate of your herd numbers and age and even fawning rates. I don't think they even compare to hunting a high fence. Heck--unless you hunt with a homemade bow and a flintlock we've all taken advantage of improved technology. Yes, I think they're great too for the same reasons. I didn't get a chance to use mine this past season, because I wasn't well, but last year I had a lot of fun with them, and got to see many bucks, that I never saw during hunting season. It was nice to know what was there, and what wasn't, just for the record, if nothing else. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TexasDeerHunter Posted January 2, 2008 Report Share Posted January 2, 2008 I think it is very important that we remember that we are all on the same team here. IMO it is up to each person to decide what he or she thinks is an acceptable way to hunt as long as it is legal. If your goal is book animals then you must adhere to the rules, if making book does not mean a thing then you definately have more flexability in how you choose to hunt. There is no definate line to draw when it comes to technology, I think each of us has to be the judge for our ownselves. If you are like me , then you will find yourself getting more and more back to the basics each hunting season. As we grow as hunters I think our veiw points and hunting strategy and techniques change. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ruttinbuc Posted January 2, 2008 Report Share Posted January 2, 2008 What does this have to do with fair chase? Let's try and stick to the topic. Excuse me, having animals to chase might have something to do with it. There are regulations in place that determines in the states minds what is fair or not fair. Although there are some who may disagree on some issues such as baiting. Evolution of hunting has had improvement and "new" technology to help humans catch up with their quarry as long as they have hunted. Today we need to regulate the tradition so as to have it in the first place. Clubs such as P&Y, B&C and even private clubs may choose what standards to accept in the interest of their own organizations. No one is forcing anyone who does not belong to live up their standards. for anyone thinking that there rules are gospel is foolish. People are smart enough to know what is right or wrong when it comes to fair chase. Ethics are a personal thing. Some have them and unfortunately others do not. There are no guarantees that a trail camera or lighted sight pin or holding weight of a bow will put you "in the book" anyhow. You need to get close regardless. That in itself is the real challenge. If you want to abide by club rules, fine . Just don't hold others in contempt of what they are doing as anything more than what is allowed by law. So far to date I have not killed any animals caught by my cameras as in the Drury example. Then again, they have a whole lot better location to hunt than I do..... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Tatonka Posted January 2, 2008 Report Share Posted January 2, 2008 Interesting..... oddly enough a posted a similar thread on another site the other day. We all use technology to a certain degree, obviously, whether it be shooting an old flintlock, a longbow, or whatever....even those weapons provide a technological advantage even though the technology is pretty primitive...it's still technology. My personal opinion, for what it is worth, is that when technology creates an unfair advantage for the hunter, maybe it's time to take a step back and re-evaluate things. I don't believe any one piece of technology eliminates a buck's chances of eluding a hunter, but when you add them all up I do believe "Fair Chase" becomes questionable. Example: A hunter puts out a trail cam and knows exactly where and when a buck will pass by (some of you will say this doesn't happen, but I just read an article in a magazine that stating exactly that....a buck was passing by a trail cam within a two hour time frame every day). Then you add in a rangefinder, scentlok clothing (assuming it works...I have my doubts, but that's another topic), a compound bow that can be held nearly indefinitely at full draw (and is shot using a release aid, peep sight, stabilzer, etc.....or a high powered rifle with a scope), the food plot that the hunter planted to attract and grow big bucks, etc. and you reach a point where the hunter has an incredibly huge advantage......to the point of where "Fair Chase" is certainly questionable. Take one or two of those pieces out of technology out of the picture and it changes everything.....give that same hunter a longbow with no rangefinder or scentlok clothing and it changes the whole picture. We all use various pieces of technology to varying degrees. It also depends on where you hunt, the type of cover you hunt, etc. as well as your skill and experience in the field. We all hunt for different reasons... for some of us it's the challenge of taking a mature buck, to others it's filling the freezer with meat. Some people hunt mostly for the comradarie (deer camp). Others like the challenge of hunting with a primitive weapon while others love tinkering with all the gadgets available these days. My concern is with people who are obsessed with killing a huge buck and who use every device known to mankind to get the job done. It's a complex issue and really has nothing to do with Boone and Crockett or Pope and Young....it has to do with hunting ethics and not taking unfair advantage of a creature as splendid as a whitetail deer. It's a call each hunter has to make on his/her own. I'm not going to tell anyone what they should or should not do. I know what my definition of "Fair Chase " is, but others obviously have a different definition and I respect that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rhino Posted January 2, 2008 Report Share Posted January 2, 2008 Scouting cameras to aid in location of deer are taboo. As far as B&C fair chase rules go, that is not true. They did add a new fair chase rule regarding scouting cameras but they were referring to real time cameras. The ones where you can sit at your computer and check your pictures real time. How fair is it to do that? See a big one real time on a camera during legal hours, and head out to try to cut him off where he's heading. How do I know this? Because I got it straight from B&C before the season started after seeing the new trail camera rule. I'm a B&C associate member but it sure helps to know someone that knows the higher ups with B&C personally. I sent my buddy in Iowa (used to live in Montana) that knows them personally a note about the new fair chase rule and he sent it to his close friend at B&C. He then sent me their response. Now I haven't looked at P&Y to see if they did the same thing or not so I can't comment on it. I personally have no problem using trail cameras but none of mine are real time. Don't want to spend that kind of money for a camera anyway and risk having it stolen. I don't care about real time images at all but I sure do like knowing what the quality of the deer are where I'm hunting for the same reasons that dogdoc mentioned. Good response todd! There's also a misunderstanding about how effective trail cameras are at getting pictures of bucks on a particular piece of property. Last year I got pictures of exactly 30 3 1/2 year old and older bucks on our 2,750 acres here in MS using 3 trail cameras. 5 of those bucks were killed with 4 of them being killed outside the area I got the pics. One was actually killed 4 months after I got pictures of him still in velvet. He was killed almost a mile from where I got the velvet pics. The buck that was killed where the pictures were taken was killed 8 days after the last picture. 10 other big bucks were killed on our place that never stepped in front of one of my cameras. So far this year only 3 of the older bucks I got pictures of (out of 18 so far) have been killed and only one of them was killed where I got pictures of him. He fell on the 2nd day of bowseason to one of my best friends. The other 2 were were about a half a mile away from where I got the pictues. I killed one of those and passed up other bucks in the same area over several different hunts before he came by me during the middle of the day. That was a couple of weeks after I got pictures of him too. In additon to those 3 bucks that have been killed so far, 5 other big ones have been killed that never stepped in front of a camera. Not mine or a firend of mine that's running 2 other cameras. So far I've made 40 set ups with my trial cameras this year and have 3 cameras running out there right now. We still have until the end of this month to go in our deer season. There's no guarantee the buck you get pictures of one day will be around that spot when you pull your cards and download your pics. Heck, a friend of mine killed a 6 year old buck last Friday afternoon that another friend swears was the same buck that got by him that same morning. He had a very distinctive looking rack. The 2 spots were right at 3/4 of a mile from one another. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LifeNRA Posted January 2, 2008 Report Share Posted January 2, 2008 Tred Barta comes to mind when I read this........... He thinks that the only fair chase is with his beloved long bow. Any type of scent killer is wrong ( he only uses baking soda and the outdoor air), any type of GPS device is wrong, any type of trail camera, range finder, TREE STANDS, blinds, etc etc is wrong in his opinion. And anyone who uses these methods aren't really hunters. :rolleyes: Yet it's funny he uses all the latest technology on his high-dollar boat when he goes fishing. ......................WHATEVER. Personally, he is an idiot! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest csod08 Posted January 3, 2008 Report Share Posted January 3, 2008 Technology is taking over all aspects of our world. That is simply the truth and I don't know if it is a good thing or not. But I do think that all of this technology does not mean that we are not having a fair chase. We as hunters still have to get out in the woods and be smart and put a good shot on the deer. Not to mention that if these deer are true trophies, it means that they are probably older, more mature deer. These deer have obviously been around the block a few times and have gotten pretty smart. I think technology helps us with hunting, but I do not believe that it gives us an unfair advantage. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Randy Posted January 3, 2008 Report Share Posted January 3, 2008 My concern is with people who are obsessed with killing a huge buck and who use every device known to mankind to get the job done. It's a complex issue and really has nothing to do with Boone and Crockett or Pope and Young....it has to do with hunting ethics and not taking unfair advantage of a creature as splendid as a whitetail deer. It's a call each hunter has to make on his/her own. I'm not going to tell anyone what they should or should not do. I know what my definition of "Fair Chase " is, but others obviously have a different definition and I respect that.This response intruges me. What kind of device makes it that much easier to kill a really big buck? I'd like to find one, the only one I can think of would be a spotlight at night. Obviously that would be illegal and definately not fall under the "fair chase rules". Let me know, I still have a bit of room on my walls. They don't get big by being stupid and if it were that easy everybody would have one. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest coloradobuck Posted January 3, 2008 Report Share Posted January 3, 2008 first of all, how is it far chase to sit in a tree stand and bait the deer to ya. how is that fair chase? seconed the whole deal with Tred Barta is, how can you say he's and idiot. i persanaliy agree with him that its not fair to use sent killer and be in a tree or ground blind. how can you call him an idot? have you met him? me i have met him. he's a really nice guy who nows alot of stuff about GOOD AND RIGHT hunting. use of a tree stand or ground blind in my opinon is wrong. it's just as bad to me as hunting a high fince. -ron Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Randy Posted January 3, 2008 Report Share Posted January 3, 2008 i persanaliy agree with him that its not fair to use sent killer and be in a tree or ground blind. use of a tree stand or ground blind in my opinon is wrong. it's just as bad to me as hunting a high fince. -ron Good luck with that!! :D:D Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest coloradobuck Posted January 3, 2008 Report Share Posted January 3, 2008 also to go along with the big bucks, why not try hunting a doe or shoot a small buck. what is so wrong about shooting a small or young deer. my first buck was maby a 2 year old mule deer buck. my first doe was a yearling doe. to me its not right to pass up good meat for a big rack. you cant eat antler. -Ron Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest coloradobuck Posted January 3, 2008 Report Share Posted January 3, 2008 every deer that i've killed i've done it with a pair of blue jeans no high dollor camo. and NO SENT KILLER! my grandpa never used sent killer and he's shot monster mule deer bucks and monster bull elk. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Randy Posted January 3, 2008 Report Share Posted January 3, 2008 also to go along with the big bucks, why not try hunting a doe to me its not right to pass up good meat for a big rack. you cant eat antler. -Ron Ah, the joys of freedom of speech!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest coloradobuck Posted January 3, 2008 Report Share Posted January 3, 2008 hey atleast i aint no tree stand trophy hunter. (yea for freedome of speach!) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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