Fair Chase?

[Missilelock]

I feel that if your main goalin hunting is to put an animal in "the book", then obey the book rules.

if you hunt for other reasons, then to each his own as long as its legal..

[VermontHunter]

first of all, how is it far chase to sit in a tree stand and bait the deer to ya. how is that fair chase?

seconed the whole deal with Tred Barta is, how can you say he's and idiot. i persanaliy agree with him that its not fair to use sent killer and be in a tree or ground blind. how can you call him an idot? have you met him? me i have met him. he's a really nice guy who nows alot of stuff about GOOD AND RIGHT hunting. use of a tree stand or ground blind in my opinon is wrong. it's just as bad to me as hunting a high fince.

-ron

Two words come to mind ....

GOOD GRIEF ... :eek:

All to his/her own opinions I guess ..

[Guest csod08]

every deer that i've killed i've done it with a pair of blue jeans no high dollor camo. and NO SENT KILLER! my grandpa never used sent killer and he's shot monster mule deer bucks and monster bull elk.

Yup I don't use SENT killer either...maybe scent killer once and a while;)

[lungbuster12point06]

All I can say is scent killer does not guarantee a deer will not smell you, you still need to play the wind......as for rangefinders, isn't the goal of every ethical hunter to quickly and cleanly dispatch your quarry? And isn't it more assured that you will quickly and cleanly do it if you know the range instead of guessing at it?????

As for the hunting personality you mentioned, from what I have heard of his hunts he tends to take risky shots and wounds animals...........is that your definition of a "real hunter"?

And for the record, if you try spot and stalk in the Midwest on cagey whitetails you might as well prepare yourself for tag soup year after year;) once in a while you might get lucky but if you want to consistently "harvest" whitetails the best method is to pick a spot and wait, whether it be in a tree,natural blind or man made pop up.........of course there are exceptions and some are very good at still hunting and are consistently killing deer in that method, but really what does it matter? sitting in a tree, sitting high on a ridge top glassing for a deer to stalk it's all hunting and none is easier than the other, just different;)

As for fair chase it all boils down to this: If you are challenged during the hunt and a kill is not guaranteed and in no way are you preventing the quarry from escape and after it is over you feel good about the methods you used to take your animal and did not break any laws or put yourself in a morally questionable position before,during or after the pursuit,then revel in the fact that no matter what anyone else says you hunted by your definition of fair chase and be proud of your trophies no matter how big or small.............

[VermontHunter]

All I can say is scent killer does not guarantee a deer will not smell you, you still need to play the wind......as for rangefinders, isn't the goal of every ethical hunter to quickly and cleanly dispatch your quarry? And isn't it more assured that you will quickly and cleanly do it if you know the range instead of guessing at it?????

As for the hunting personality you mentioned, from what I have heard of his hunts he tends to take risky shots and wounds animals...........is that your definition of a "real hunter"?

And for the record, if you try spot and stalk in the Midwest on cagey whitetails you might as well prepare yourself for tag soup year after year;) once in a while you might get lucky but if you want to consistently "harvest" whitetails the best method is to pick a spot and wait, whether it be in a tree,natural blind or man made pop up.........of course there are exceptions and some are very good at still hunting and are consistently killing deer in that method, but really what does it matter? sitting in a tree, sitting high on a ridge top glassing for a deer to stalk it's all hunting and none is easier than the other, just different;)

As for fair chase it all boils down to this: If you are challenged during the hunt and a kill is not guaranteed and in no way are you preventing the quarry from escape and after it is over you feel good about the methods you used to take your animal and did not break any laws or put yourself in a morally questionable position before,during or after the pursuit,then revel in the fact that no matter what anyone else says you hunted by your definition of fair chase and be proud of your trophies no matter how big or small.............

Well said ...

[buckee]

first of all, how is it far chase to sit in a tree stand and bait the deer to ya. how is that fair chase?

seconed the whole deal with Tred Barta is, how can you say he's and idiot. i persanaliy agree with him that its not fair to use sent killer and be in a tree or ground blind. how can you call him an idot? have you met him? me i have met him. he's a really nice guy who nows alot of stuff about GOOD AND RIGHT hunting. use of a tree stand or ground blind in my opinon is wrong. it's just as bad to me as hunting a high fince.

-ron

WOW

I've never heard such garbage in my life. Have you never layed in wait for a big game animal, whether it be hiding behind a tree, sitting on a log, or tucked into the rocks up on a mountain-side ? What is the difference, between natural camouflage and hiding in a tree-stand or a blind ?

Your comments are, very insulting to me personally.

also to go along with the big bucks, why not try hunting a doe or shoot a small buck. what is so wrong about shooting a small or young deer. my first buck was maby a 2 year old mule deer buck. my first doe was a yearling doe. to me its not right to pass up good meat for a big rack. you cant eat antler.

-Ron

Nobody in this thread has said there is anything wrong with shooting small deer.

every deer that i've killed i've done it with a pair of blue jeans no high dollor camo. and NO SENT KILLER! my grandpa never used sent killer and he's shot monster mule deer bucks and monster bull elk.

Yep, I used to hunt in blue jeans, and bush shirts for years too, but then, I never had a deer standing within arms reach away from me back in those days either. And by golly, I sure did see a lot of tails...LOL. I've been hunting all my life, and I'm 54 years old. Since using good camo, and paying more attention to my scent control, I've become a better hunter, not a worse one.

hey atleast i aint no tree stand trophy hunter.

(yea for freedome of speach!)

You have some sort of mental block about tree-stands and ground blinds, my friend. What makes you equate tree-stand and ground-blind hunting with Trophy hunting?.... and who cares.

You're 16 years old my friend, so please try to respect others, respect where they live and think before you type.

No wonder you don't like Tree-stands or Ground-blinds ...Look where you hunt...LOL. Not a tree in sight.

Heck, I wouldn't bother with tree-stands...LOL, or ground-blinds either, if I lived and hunted where you do.

If you ever take up bow-hunting, or up close and personal hunting, you might want to change your mind about them Blue-jeans, bush-shirts and scent control.

A nice set of MAX1 sure would be nice where you hunt.

[Randy]

All I can say is scent killer does not guarantee a deer will not smell you, you still need to play the wind......as for rangefinders, isn't the goal of every ethical hunter to quickly and cleanly dispatch your quarry? And isn't it more assured that you will quickly and cleanly do it if you know the range instead of guessing at it?????

As for the hunting personality you mentioned, from what I have heard of his hunts he tends to take risky shots and wounds animals...........is that your definition of a "real hunter"?

And for the record, if you try spot and stalk in the Midwest on cagey whitetails you might as well prepare yourself for tag soup year after year;) once in a while you might get lucky but if you want to consistently "harvest" whitetails the best method is to pick a spot and wait, whether it be in a tree,natural blind or man made pop up.........of course there are exceptions and some are very good at still hunting and are consistently killing deer in that method, but really what does it matter? sitting in a tree, sitting high on a ridge top glassing for a deer to stalk it's all hunting and none is easier than the other, just different;)

As for fair chase it all boils down to this: If you are challenged during the hunt and a kill is not guaranteed and in no way are you preventing the quarry from escape and after it is over you feel good about the methods you used to take your animal and did not break any laws or put yourself in a morally questionable position before,during or after the pursuit,then revel in the fact that no matter what anyone else says you hunted by your definition of fair chase and be proud of your trophies no matter how big or small.............

Yep, can't say it much better than that!

[elkoholic]

So, from what I can make of things, most of the people who have actually answered the question (well sort of) on whether we should draw the line on technology seem to think that there should be no line. Then, let's break out the heat seeking missiles. That said, let's not. It has nothing to do with population control, shooting trophy bucks or having a good time. When technology reduces the animals ability to go undetected, detect potential danger or to escape there is some compromise of the idea of "fair chase". In regard to B&C rules, taken at face value as printed I would presume trail cams used for the purpose of hunting big game is taboo. If you have to get a ruling from an official than it is poorly written. I am not a fan of either P&Y or B&C as they have become just a couple more "big business" ventures that honor the hunter more than the animal. One more thought on hunting rules or regulations would be to make sure you read your states regulations because if you read my home state's hunting regulations you will find the use of any electronic devise to aid in the hunting of big game is illegal.

I do not think we need to attack each other or get defensive about these subjects. Different hunting techniques are interesting to hear about and although we might not agree with them, or think them unethical, that should not bring about an attack. On Tred Barta, he does it his way and you have to give him credit for that. Only saw one show with him hunting elk and he got it done and it sure looked legal and ethical to me.

To the original thought on technology. Draw a line? Leave it to the individual? I'm thinking, draw a line because leaving it to the individual will not work. Or, maybe throw out the thought of fair chase and let's just go kill something.

[Guest coloradobuck]

listen, i do apolagize for what i said about tree stand huntn. thats ya'ls deal not mine. i have gotn with in 5ft. of my first doe when i shot it. so you can get offly close to a deer with blue jeans and a bush shirts and with out sent killer.i'ed rather hike 10-15 miles to get my deer or elk rather walk less than a mile to sit in a stand or blind. so my "Garbage" as you so nicely put it, to me and my family is right. i never said that your way of hunting is "Garbage" so in a way your coments are very insulting to me.

the doe thats in that pic. i hike a ways to get i draged it from the other side of the ridge. thats at least a mile.

[buckee]

first of all, how is it far chase to sit in a tree stand and bait the deer to ya. how is that fair chase? use of a tree stand or ground blind in my opinon is wrong. it's just as bad to me as hunting a high fince.

WOW

I've never heard such garbage in my life. Have you never layed in wait for a big game animal, whether it be hiding behind a tree, sitting on a log, or tucked into the rocks up on a mountain-side ? What is the difference, between natural camouflage and hiding in a tree-stand or a blind ?

Your comments are, very insulting to me personally.

listen, i do apolagize for what i said about tree stand huntn. thats ya'ls deal not mine. i have gotn with in 5ft. of my first doe when i shot it. so you can get offly close to a deer with blue jeans and a bush shirts and with out sent killer.i'ed rather hike 10-15 miles to get my deer or elk rather walk less than a mile to sit in a stand or blind. so my "Garbage" as you so nicely put it, to me and my family is right. i never said that your way of hunting is "Garbage" so in a way your coments are very insulting to me.

the doe thats in that pic. i hike a ways to get i draged it from the other side of the ridge. thats at least a mile.

Maybe you should go back and re-read what I said.

I said, you're opinion of me (and others), as a tree-stand and ground-blind hunter, being unfair chase, is total garbage. And it's insulting garbage at that. I never said your way of hunting is Garbage.

Nice try on turning the tables there, my young friend, but I very much respect your way of hunting, and love that great open country you have, as much as you should be respecting others.

And I'm sorry, but you can't equate miles walked, with fair or unfair chase. That's ego talking.

[Nut]

I can't run as fast as a deer so I am unable to chase it fairly.:p

[Guest coloradobuck]

well sorry for miss under standing. it affinds me that you think my opinon of tree stand and ground blind hunting is "garbage".

use of a tree stand or ground blind in my opinon is wrong.

those where my words. i do apoligize for how i said them. thats MY opinon. i know alot of people that fell the same way about my way of hunting. but thats there opinon. i dont say it's garbage.

Have you never layed in wait for a big game animal, whether it be hiding behind a tree, sitting on a log, or tucked into the rocks up on a mountain-side ?

yes i have sat on a hill side for a few minutes. but i never wait for my game. i go to it.

Maybe you should go back and re-read what I said.

I said, you're opinion of me (and others), as a tree-stand and ground-blind hunter, being unfair chase, is total garbage. And it's insulting garbage at that. I never said your way of hunting is Garbage.

Nice try on turning the tables there, my young friend, but I very much respect your way of hunting, and love that great open country you have, as much as you should be respecting others.

if i affendend enyone i apoligize. but this is the way i was brought up. that its fair chases if your out walking for miles for your game. and that the tree stand and ground blind hunting is worng. thats the way my grandpa tought me.

-Ron

[buckee]

Ron,

I know your young and all, and your Granddad was absolutely right when it comes to hunting the area you live, but son...it's not a great idea to come into a forum that is owned by folks who produce outstanding camouflage for us hunters, has members from every kind of outdoor environment in the country, who have different laws and different challenges of hunting, and proclaim to all, that your way of hunting is the only definition of fair chase there is, and turn around and paint us all with the brush of being un-ethical hunters, because we don't hunt like your grandpa taught you.

That my young friend, is just not right. and I'll say it again...it's garbage.

Now if you can't see the truth in that, and get all huffed up and offended, after offending others, then you have problems.

Now you go ahead and walk your miles upon miles to get your game, and I can respect that, very much, but you come and visit me or some others in here, and hunt where we hunt, and you ain't walking too dang far before you run into the neighbors fence, and scare all the deer into the next property, where you can't hunt. Then what ?

So before you judge other's methods of hunting compared to your own, maybe, just maybe, you should listen for a while, walk in their shoes, and learn a bit, before you blurt out things you'll be sorry for.

[Guest coloradobuck]

your doing the same thing. your makeing your opinon seembetter then others opinon. and thats garbage! if your gonna say that me comeing in here saying that the other ways of hunting is wrong is not right, your doing the same thing! your comeing in here and saying pretty much that your way is better.

mabey you should walk in others shoes to.

I know your young and all, and your Granddad was absolutely right when it comes to hunting the area you live, but son...it's not a great idea to come into a forum that is owned by folks who produce outstanding camouflage for us hunters, has members from every kind of outdoor environment in the country, who have different laws and different challenges of hunting, and proclaim to all, that your way of hunting is the only definition of fair chase there is, and turn around and paint us all with the brush of being un-ethical hunters, because we don't hunt like your grandpa taught you.

that sounds pretty close to what your saying i was doing. now i admet i should chose my words better, but why would you say that what i said is notright? i just dont get that.

-Ron

[buckee]

OK..I've had enough Ron. I can see you don't comprehend too well, so I'm out.

I was trying to be nice, and help you understand the rest of the country. I can see it's a lost cause..

[crazylegz70]

While we are on the debate of P&Y...Has anyone thought of this.....

1. I use a trail camera on the property where i hunt

2. I shot a P&Y sized buck this year

3. I didnt get any pictures of him before i shot him....hmmmmm

Does that mean that I cant enter him in P&Y...

Not in my book....He is going to be there.....

[crazylegz70]

in other words...I didnt even know this deer was on the property even after using a camera all season.......

[crazylegz70]

So before you judge other's methods of hunting compared to your own, maybe, just maybe, you should listen for a while, walk in their shoes, and learn a bit, before you blurt out things you'll be sorry for.

excellent point, i personally dont have the ability to walk miles and miles and stalk game...I wish i could.....so does that make me an unethical hunter ron??? Do I have the ability to walk 100 yards down a field a sit...yes....would i rather walk 25 yards and get in my ladder stand....TEN TIMES OVER...you are kind of being irrational ron....

[colescott1]

I still say the "sad" part of all this...is that its caused by the bravado that lights up inside when there are big antlers involved.

No matter if your walking for miles and miles, or getting dropped off by a friend on an ATV to climb into a ladder stand wearing AP.....its still a heck of a lot more fair chase than the beef / chicken / turkey / farm raised and killed venison you can buy at the grocery store.

Mans fascination with antlers on the head has caused this push for bigger, better, faster, more. Would I shot a 10 pt "monster" over a doe if standing side by side? Sure...get the meat and a bonus. But...since I hunt for meat, it doesn't make much sense to me.

All this "competition"...whose the better hunter? The guy who spent 6 years patterning an 8pt buck....or the 12 year old who borrowed a rifle, stepped in the woods and dropped a 12pt, 240" typical 10 minutes into the hunt?

My answer... WHO CARES!!!

Go have fun...doing what you like to do (as long as its legal by state / local laws).

[Randy]

To answer the question to draw a line or not, I say "no"! Not sure how long you have been hunting but, I personally have been bowhunting since 1985. I'm probably one of the "guilty ones" of having many of the new "gadgets." I remember my first year like it was yesterday. I sat in a stand on an open fenceline that was made out of three Pinetrees that we cut down and made a tripod out of them. The top had galvanized metal about waste high all the way around. Now, I'm not sure how you fellas out west hunt because I have never done it. But I'd challenge you to come to WI and try and shoot a deer, whether it is a monster buck or a 1 1/2 old doe with fawns, out of a similar stand. My honest opinion is, "it's not going to happen!" Why is that? Although I never killed a deer out of that stand I had plenty of opportunities. :rolleyes: Every year the technology gives us an edge, in the mean time the deer adapt to that edge and continue to get smarter and smarter. So, what is technology really doing?? In my opinion, It's giving the deer an education. Just my $ .02

[Guest Finn]

hey atleast i aint no tree stand trophy hunter.

(yea for freedome of speach!)

I really get frustrated with people who think their way of hunting is the only way to hunt. Why do you feel your opinion is the only correct one for every hunter?

If you are going to communicate online and expect to be taken seriously, you really should know how to spell words. Proper grammar would help, too.

As for fair chase it all boils down to this: If you are challenged during the hunt and a kill is not guaranteed and in no way are you preventing the quarry from escape and after it is over you feel good about the methods you used to take your animal and did not break any laws or put yourself in a morally questionable position before,during or after the pursuit,then revel in the fact that no matter what anyone else says you hunted by your definition of fair chase and be proud of your trophies no matter how big or small.............

Can't argue with good old common sense.

[wtnhunt]

This topic has come up here a lot over the years. Fair chase and what people may think is in a way going to be subject to opinions and while some may not be well informed or accustomed to methods that others use to hunt, they should at least give those hunters the respect they are due rather than bashing them for not understanding or being ignorant to those methods.

For examples sake, we have probably all seen the shows on tv or videos where hunters ride in a truck with a guide, spot from a scope on a window mount inside the truck, and pick a deer, elk, or whatever that they will decide to hunt or shoot. They get out of the truck and close as much distance as possible and what we see looks like it was short hunt and very little actual "chase" involved, and may even appear to some in a way to not really be all that fair. If I were one to make assumptions from these types of shows, I would think it is easy and not challenging at all hunting out west, but I do know better as do most of us here. We do not always see all that goes into those out west hunting shows like I mention. Just as well, too assume a hunt you know nothing about in a part of the country where treestands are the most common method of hunting is being pretty well ignorant if you do not take the time to at least understand why they are used and to understand how different the hunting is than what you are accustomed to. Not everything is wide open like some places, and I can assure those of you who have not hunted in parts of the country like this that there is a challenge in hunting tree stands in the thick swamps and river bottoms like we hunt here.

To the original topic on cams and technology, drawing a line accomplishes what? Do we draw a line at a point prior to where we are at in some places and digress to that point and take away methods currently used for some? If that is the case where do we go to and who should decide at what point to stop. Some use sights on bows rather than shooting instinctive, some use scopes on muzzleloaders, and some use open sights. Really so long as it is legal methods I have no problem with technology. Cams that are not in real time are nothing more than a scouting tool, comparable in my opinion to using a spotting scope from a long distance off. Some places that are thick overgrown scopes are not an option anyways and cams are an effective tool at knowing what is and is not in that area. There are no guarantees with cams, I have managed to kill just one mature buck from a cam that I had patterned since my first cam went into use in 2003. This past year was a good example, I had 4 cams running, the deer I killed the opening morning of our ml season managed to NEVER once get his pic made on any of those cams that were on trails on our property.

[ruttinbuc]

And it is still one in six who manage to kill a buck deer no matter what method is used. I also remember a study by Penn State University that said for every deer you physically see there are four that you don't. Don't know how true that is today, but I bet it is close....

[Texan_Til_I_Die]

And folks, you might want to ask yourself this.

If Daniel Boone and Davey Crockett were alive today, would they be using the latest technology? Well, they're not here to answer, but I'd have to say that they would. After all, what did they use during their time? A smoothbore matchlock blunderbuss or a rifled flintlock? They used the best that was available to them that they could afford. And I don't think either one of them were particularly worried about "fair chase." They were worried about being successful hunters.

[Guest Tatonka]

I've been involved with debates on fair chase, technology, etc. many times. They always end up with people getting ticked off and slamming each other...never fails. My rule of thumb is that I never direct anything at any individual, be it Mr. Barta or anyone else. I have my opinions and respect people whose opinions are different than mine.

What usually happens with these kinds of debates is that people get very defensive when their method of hunting, choice of weapons and/or technology, etc. come under attack. It's human nature.....we try to justify our actions regardless of what anyone else says. We close our minds and refuse to accept that what other people say might be true. I do it and so does most overyone else.

Lines have already been drawn as far as technology and hunting methods go.....it just depends on where you live and what the laws of the state are. The question is where should the lines be drawn.....people will never agree on that. In Montana it is illegal to use walkie talkies, cell phones, etc. to communicate back and forth while hunting for the purpose of killing an animal....it becomes almost impossible to enforce as you can use those devices to communicate for any other purpose than hunting an animal (like telling your partner what time to meet back at the truck for a snack). In Saskatchewan baiting is legal.....most other places it isn't. I haven't read all of Montana's laws lately, but I believe it's illegal to use electronic calling devices. I'm sure there are other laws addressing technology also, but I don't use much of that stuff so I'm not up on it. I know some states only allow muzzleloaders with no scopes during muzzleloader seasons while others have no restrictions on them.

There was an earlier post here that said something about spotlighting....I can't recall exactly what the comment was, but a person could even make a valid arguement about spotlighting being fair chase (No, I don't hunt at night:)), but take a look at the challenge poachers have... They have to find deer close enough to the road to shoot, they have to shoot under very stressful circumstances (looking over their shoulder), Their shots have to be relatively close (a spotlight reaches out quite a ways, but not all that far), they have to get their gun out the window and shoot the deer before it runs and if they happen to kill a deer they have to figure out a way to get the deer into their vehicle before the neighbors call the game warden. The deer are not fenced in. The deer can run away as soon as it hears a vehicle coming or sees the spotlight if it wants to. Obviously I'm not being serious here, but if you really think about it is killing a deer under a spotlight less challenging than using every piece of technology known to mankind, planting food plants to hunt over, shooting deer over bait piles, etc.? I'm not saying it is or isn't (It's obviously illegal)....I'm just throwing it out there for food for thought. It's funny.......coon hunting at night is an accepted method of hunting. Dogs are turned loose, spotlights are used to find the coon up in the tree, etc. and no one thinks twice about it.

I'm can't read the future but my guess is that we are reaching a point where with more and more technology, new hunting methods, etc. State F&G departments, B&C and P&Y, etc. will be taking a very close look at all of this. I really don't think anyone ever anticipated 30 or 40 years ago how technology would impact hunting today. What changes might be coming down the road, I have no idea but I do believe technology will become a hot topic.... From this thread it obviously is already pretty hot!