Norm Sauceman Posted January 13, 2005 Report Share Posted January 13, 2005 I know this subject can get really heated. There could be a push in the future to get Roe vs. Wade overturned. What do you think about it? I will start. Here is Norm's theory on abortion, a woman’s rights and life. I believe a woman has the right to do anything to her body as she wishes. She can cut, mutilate, tattoo, break, bend, punch holes and do most anything imaginable. I believe a woman can have sex with any human she wants as long as it is consensual. BUT....if these actions cause a pregnancy her rights to her body have changed, She has no right to abort the fetus whatsoever..Her body becomes THEIR body for 9 months. BUT...I can concede this for the women: If they can catch the pregnancy within the first term (3 months) I would allow her to abort the fetus because there is no way that fetus could survive outside the womb. IF the woman is under the age of 18 and still living at home or with a guardian, the parents or the guardian MUST BE NOTIFIED AND INVOLVED!! IF the pregnancy is a result of incest or rape a report MUST BE FILED WITH THE POLICE before an abortion could be allowed (within the first term). IF at any time during the pregnancy the woman's health is in danger, she would be allowed to terminate the pregnancy to save her own life. I know there is room for abuse of this and any law, but this is what I feel could work instead of Roe vs. Wade. I firmly believe ALL humans must take responsibility for their actions and an abortion IS NOT taking responsibility. It is just an out. What are your thoughts? PLEASE. Let’s be civil in this discussion…this is just an open topic to get different views and ideas. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wtnhunt Posted January 13, 2005 Report Share Posted January 13, 2005 Re: Abortion Even though the life of a another is inside her body, I do not feel as though that gives a woman the right to take that life. Rape is an entirely different issue and I would have to agree with you on that one. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fisherguy Posted January 13, 2005 Report Share Posted January 13, 2005 Re: Abortion i am pretty much in full agreement with you norm except on incest and rape. I would have to up the 3 months there in case she was unable to come forward or too scared. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
muggs Posted January 13, 2005 Report Share Posted January 13, 2005 Re: Abortion Norm, a hypothetical for you. Lets say a women is date raped, she is embarressed, and almost begins to feel that it might have been her fault so she keeps it to herself, as hard as it is. She attempts to ignore the problem, hoping it might just go away and she will be able to feel normal again. Then in the second term, she realizes that this rape has resulted in the pregnancy. Are you saying that she must give birth? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
buckee Posted January 13, 2005 Report Share Posted January 13, 2005 Re: Abortion [ QUOTE ] BUT...I can concede this for the women: If they can catch the pregnancy within the first term (3 months) I would allow her to abort the fetus because there is no way that fetus could survive outside the womb. [/ QUOTE ] I disagree with this. Just because the fetus could not survive outside the womb at this point, does not make it any less of a life. Abortion should never be used to cover up ones mistakes. Adoption is the way to go here. Rape is a touchy issue, but adoption is always an alternative there too. Why should a baby be sacrificed for the actions of another. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
muggs Posted January 13, 2005 Report Share Posted January 13, 2005 Re: Abortion What if the child is not adopted and lives the the first 18 years of their life in a shelter?? Or what if the young mother decides to give birth and as a result cannot attend college, or receive any other form of education to better her future. The father of the baby, is no where to be found. The young mother and he child, are poor, they struggle to find food, and medical attention. Now two lives have been destoyed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
buckee Posted January 13, 2005 Report Share Posted January 13, 2005 Re: Abortion You came up with a lot of what-ifs, to try to excuse the murder of an innocent child there muggs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
muggs Posted January 13, 2005 Report Share Posted January 13, 2005 Re: Abortion that's muggs pal, and before I get a heated I'll end by saying this. It's easy to pull this holier than thou BS, but try dealing it with yourself pal, and having to make that decision. Try walking a mile in someones shoes before you start placing your judgements. You make it sound like these girls are just running around screwing everybody and "murdering" people. That's a strong choice of words there too. Ya might want to rethink that one. I don't support abortion, yet you asumed I do. I'm just wise enough to realize that I have no place to cast judgement upon anyone else. As a matter a fact, what other people do, doens't really concern me all that much. But I will say this, I can't stand when people think they have any right to question the actions of others. And worse yet, they got to stamp it on their bumper like I give a **** what they think. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
muggs Posted January 13, 2005 Report Share Posted January 13, 2005 Re: Abortion BTW BUCKEE, shouldn't "what if's" and differect scenarios be taken into consideration when discussing this topic. Or should we just lump everyone into one category, so it's more convient to criticize them?? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
buckee Posted January 13, 2005 Report Share Posted January 13, 2005 Re: Abortion Sorry about the typo... Didn't take much to push a few buttons there ...LOL I never insulted you in the above post, so let's keep our shorts on eh. [ QUOTE ] You make it sound like these girls are just running around screwing everybody and "murdering" people. [/ QUOTE ] Actually that statement above is precisely what is happening all over the world today, because of our promiscuous societies. Abstinence is rarely discussed anymore and when it is, it is a short discussion followed by a birth control discussion. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
muggs Posted January 13, 2005 Report Share Posted January 13, 2005 Re: Abortion I really tried not to lose my cool, but to be honest with ya, the muff thing really set me off at first, but I'll admit it had me laughing eventually. No harm, no foul. Abstinence? Lets be real, that ain't gonna happen. Like I said, I don't necessarily support abortion, but I won't call it murder either. But that logic what is a miscarriage, manslaughter?? That's really a fine line that I'm not gonna try to walk right now. abortion is necessary is some cases. But should not be abused, ie, multiple abortions by the same person etc.... that is uncalled for. But, my point is simply, don't preach. Have you ever seen that Dr. Phil character? He preaches about weight lose, while he is overweight. He's a preacher, you don't want to be like him, do you???? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
waterfowler_gal Posted January 13, 2005 Report Share Posted January 13, 2005 Re: Abortion I agree with muggs.... This is a very touchy subject... I guarentee there is not two people in this entire World that agree 110% and see eye to eye on every view and opinioniated topic.... I respect everyone's view even if I don't like it or agree with it... but like stated earlier "Try walking a mile in someones shoes before you start placing your judgements." By the way ooohhh it is hot in here! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fisherguy Posted January 13, 2005 Report Share Posted January 13, 2005 Re: Abortion [ QUOTE ] Rape is a touchy issue, but adoption is always an alternative there too. Why should a baby be sacrificed for the actions of another. [/ QUOTE ] Your opinion is your opinion on abortion, but this one i had to comment on. I don't think too many women who get pregnant due to being raped want to carry a child to term. Being pregnant is a disruption to your life, and can carry great emotional strain, shame, or stigma if it is due to rape, or a young girl is pregnant. If she doesn't want to suffer more why should she have to carry the baby? Hypothetically if you had a daughter, or sister who was raped would you want her forced to carry the child to term? I sure wouldn't. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
muggs Posted January 13, 2005 Report Share Posted January 13, 2005 Re: Abortion seems like Norm just wanted to stir the pot a little today huh? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
waterfowler_gal Posted January 13, 2005 Report Share Posted January 13, 2005 Re: Abortion fisherguy... I wanted to type a very similar statement but I just didn't know how to word it correctly... WELL DONE! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dg Posted January 13, 2005 Report Share Posted January 13, 2005 Re: Abortion All I'll say on this subject is I agree with Norm on just about everything he said. I will say there are people alive today that need others to stay alive. That's it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TreeStandBowHunter Posted January 13, 2005 Report Share Posted January 13, 2005 Re: Abortion [ QUOTE ] Abortion should never be used to cover up ones mistakes. Adoption is the way to go here. Rape is a touchy issue, but adoption is always an alternative there too. Why should a baby be sacrificed for the actions of another. [/ QUOTE ] I couldn't agree more. If the woman is raped, then I say that she should have that right but on the other hand, it shouldn't be used as a method of birth control. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
waterfowler_gal Posted January 13, 2005 Report Share Posted January 13, 2005 Re: Abortion So how about the weather? ... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wtnhunt Posted January 13, 2005 Report Share Posted January 13, 2005 Re: Abortion [ QUOTE ] I don't think too many women who get pregnant due to being raped want to carry a child to term. [/ QUOTE ] Have to agree with this. When I said I agreed with Norm about abortions with women being raped I meant a police report should have to be issued to eliminate the casual accusations of rape as an easy way out. I am not for the killing of an innocent life, but think the point in that a woman having been raped should not have to suffer for 9 months or longer dealing with something she did not ask for. It is an entirely different situation than someone being careless. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
buckee Posted January 13, 2005 Report Share Posted January 13, 2005 Re: Abortion Funny how one person states there opinions/beliefs and is called a preacher and the one who accuses him of preaching is also stating thier opinions/beliefs, but considers himself exempt from preacher status ....LOL It the case of Rape victims, all I said was [ QUOTE ] Rape is a touchy issue, but adoption is always an alternative there too. Why should a baby be sacrificed for the actions of another. [/ QUOTE ] In the cases where having the baby, may be detrimental to the victums health, then that should be a deccission between her and her support group (doctors, psyciatrists, etc). There are many victims of rape who have carried thier babies to term and given them up for adoption or even raised them and loved them as their own. The critizism sure comes quick though, if I don't agree to a pat decission to slaughter all and any rape victims unborn children, just because they are rape victims. There is a thing called unconditional love that can transend the reprocussions of rape. Do I sound like I'm preaching again...geesh...sorry.I thought I was just getting in on a discussion and voicing my opinion. [ QUOTE ] Abstinence? Lets be real, that ain't gonna happen. [/ QUOTE ] Morality? lets get real, that ain't gonna happen either. Not on a national scale that's for sure, but on an individual scale it is taught and practiced. So what your saying here is because you think abstinence isn't going to happen on a national basis, we should give up on the idea of it altogether. Maybe teach our children different sex positions at age 13 or 14 instead and buy them all condomns??? [ QUOTE ] Hypothetically if you had a daughter, or sister who was raped would you want her forced to carry the child to term? I sure wouldn't [/ QUOTE ] Put it this way. I would try my best to save that unborns childs life as well as look out for the welfare of my daughter. No hard pat answer hear, but I would do everything in my power to look after both lives involved. I never said anything about forcing, but lets not make the deccissions to abort so un-supportive for both involved and so easy to swing one way. I could tell you a story about my own life and my 1st daughter who I have not seen since she was 3 years old. I have been there and been involved in saving a life. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fisherguy Posted January 13, 2005 Report Share Posted January 13, 2005 Re: Abortion [ QUOTE ] I never said anything about forcing, [/ QUOTE ] Sorry buckee i thought you meant even rape victims shouldn't be allowed. I am all for providing information, and support, but i doubt many rape victims want to carry the child to term. I just think regardless of our views(whatever they may be) if something happens to someone through do fault of their own they should get a free pass as far as moral or ethical judgements. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
muggs Posted January 13, 2005 Report Share Posted January 13, 2005 Re: Abortion Buckee, agian, the whole preaching thing was one of those things that doesn't translate that well when type. I wasn't necessarily refering to you, but the extremist pro-lifers out there. And the Dr. Phil thing was meant to lighten the mood. If kids are going to have sex anyways, why is giving condoms such a bad thing? I know you think it's promoted sex, but believe me, kids can be taught abstinence all the time. But once those hormones kick in... it's a different story. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carbonhunter Posted January 13, 2005 Report Share Posted January 13, 2005 Re: Abortion [ QUOTE ] What if the child is not adopted and lives the the first 18 years of their life in a shelter?? Or what if the young mother decides to give birth and as a result cannot attend college, or receive any other form of education to better her future. The father of the baby, is no where to be found. The young mother and he child, are poor, they struggle to find food, and medical attention. Now two lives have been destoyed. [/ QUOTE ] Thats why I always considered this to be more of a "right to birth", than a "right to life" question. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
buckee Posted January 13, 2005 Report Share Posted January 13, 2005 Re: Abortion You know, there are lots of folks who were brought up in poor families, never had a collage education or even finished high-school. They struggled to make ends meet and survived in the end. Quality of life means different things to different people. Struggling through life to make ends meet, makes some people strong, and at the same time may destroy others. To say a child's life would be ruined and therefore worthless, if brought into this world at an inopportune moment in someones life, is IMHO, the ultimate in playing GOD, and the epitome of selfishness. You might as well say that I should have been aborted, because my parents were poor and had no right to have 6 kids under those circumstances. My "quality of life" growing up my not have been that great, financially speaking, or even mentally and physically speaking (because of the abuse from Dad) but , all of that did not make me a candidate for abortion before I was born. The trouble with the world now adays, is we/many of us, are so spoiled rotten that the thought of struggling or sacrificing anything for a long period of time to help another human being "live", is just beyond our thinking. JMHO Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wtnhunt Posted January 13, 2005 Report Share Posted January 13, 2005 Re: Abortion [ QUOTE ] The critizism sure comes quick though, if I don't agree to a pat decission to slaughter all and any rape victims unborn children, just because they are rape victims. There is a thing called unconditional love that can transend the reprocussions of rape. [/ QUOTE ] Yes, but on that subject Steve that unborn child from a raped woman was not created out of love but was created out of hate. Rape is a crime of sheer hate. The feelings a woman might have and her having to deal with the assault on her is bad enough, but saying she has to carry inside of her a part of the animal that assaulted her without giving the option of abortion is wrong any way you look at it. Really it is a shame that this is even an issue that we are discussing but it is real and is absolutely sick that it happens. In those situations where a woman has been the victim I think they should have the choice. Like I said before I am strongly againt abortion out of convenience, but there I have to draw the line. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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