Abortion

[buckee]

Re: Abortion

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Yes, but on that subject Steve that unborn child from a raped woman was not created out of love but was created out of hate. Rape is a crime of sheer hate.

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Yes, that is true. That unborn child from a raped woman was not created out of love but was created out of hate. Rape is a crime of sheer hate, but that does not mean that that innocent child has lost all rights to be brought up in love.

I agree with you Willy, partly anyway. I think there should be more support services for rape victims to help them with that difficult decission of playing God. It is just too easy to say, abort, abort these days.

Anyway, I think I've expressed my opinion to the best of my ability, without ruffling to many feathers, so I think I'll bow out and just see how everyone else believes.

[wtnhunt]

Re: Abortion

Think all rape victims should get all the support and counseling they need as well Steve and I almost feel like a hypocrit saying this, but I think the right in those cases should not be taken away from the woman. Yes they should have counseling prior to the decision of killing the unborn child orlike you say "playing God". That is something that person will have to carry with them on top of what has happened to them for the remainder of their life. Any way you look at it the situation for that person in regards to this is not in any way easy.

[dogdoc]

Re: Abortion

If all women aborted their pregnancy so they could finish school ole' dogdoc wouldn't be on this forum today. my mother was a full time college student and dad was working full time. They had only been married about 9 months when she became pregnant with me--an accident. She continued her schooling and dad started working extra hours to help. They were about as poor as they can be. My mom told me (later in my life) that when she found out she was pregnant she cried for several day--just not knowing how they could afford to take care of a new baby. Abortion was never an option. After I was born she took off a semester and then dad started working the night shift. She started back school in the mornings and dad took care of me when he got off work. She finally finished her degree and ended up having 2 more boys.

I consider myself pro-life but not as hard core as others--like Buckee. If my wife or daughter was raped and became pregnant from that horrible act I would encourage the pregnancy aborted--but would leave that up to them. I am also not against abortion when a pregnancy endangers the mothers life or if the child has horrible genetic/physical/neurological problems.

I am very much against abortion as a form of birth control which is probably the reason for 90% of abortions.

just my thoughts.

todd

[Texan_Til_I_Die]

Re: Abortion

On the subject of pregnancy as a result of rape - I have one question.

What did that baby (fetus if you're squeemish) do to deserve being killed? Its not the baby's fault....

I'm having a really tough time understanding how people rationalize that abortion is OK in this or that circumstance, but not OK in another. The only time I would even consider it would be if there was an enormous medical risk to the mother. In that case, you're talking about taking a life to save a life. And even then I don't know if I could give my blessing to it. I hope I'm never faced with making that decision.

[billygoat]

Re: Abortion

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Yes, but on that subject Steve that unborn child from a raped woman was not created out of love but was created out of hate. Rape is a crime of sheer hate. The feelings a woman might have and her having to deal with the assault on her is bad enough, but saying she has to carry inside of her a part of the animal that assaulted her without giving the option of abortion is wrong any way you look at it. Really it is a shame that this is even an issue that we are discussing but it is real and is absolutely sick that it happens.

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I’ll chime in now. I am pro-life and make no bones about it. I also recognize that life happens. I will go out on a limb and say that half of the individuals on the forum come from divorced families… I hope you will concede that. Of those individuals, how many were raised in a home where a spouse abused (either physically or emotionally maybe even sexually) the other spouse? Take that a little further, how many of those abusive encounters resulted in a pregnancy? So now do we entitle your mother (theoretically) to terminate the life of your unborn brother (theoretically), because your father was a verbally abusive SOB (theoretically) and there for created a pregnancy not based on love but based on hate? You can see the road that this begins to take us down.

There have been several posts related to abstinence and it’s unlikely occurrence in today’s society! Ya think! To concede that abstinence will not happen in today’s society and hence we should be advocates to the youth of America in educating them in how to effectively use a condom or birth control is absurd! That’s the equivalent of saying that racism in America will never go away so we need to educate our youth on how to act as an educated racist? (I know, stupid isn’t it). The fact is all of the education in the world will make no difference! The only way to prevent pregnancy is through abstinence. Spend a day in a hospital clinic and see just how many 12 and 13 year olds walk through the door to be treated for an STD, then explain to them how they will not be able to have a vaginal delivery (EVER in there life) because of the STD they contracted. Then three weeks later when that 13 year old comes in complaining of pain and you find her pregnant and confused only to find out she didn’t effectively use her protection… what service have we provided her?

Back to the issue of abortion. Almost a week and a half ago, I was called to assist in our OB department for the delivery of a 14 week fetal demise (spontaneous abortion). This reaffirmed in me, that birth begins at conception. The child that was aborted had fully developed facial features, all of his fingers and toes, and a full covering of skin. The reason the mother went into a “spontaneous abortion” is that the infant was encephalic (born without a covering over his brain). The body new that the child could not survive life and therefore did what it knew to do… terminate. Whoever insinuated that spontaneous abortions equated to manslaughter truly needs to understand how and why the human body acts as it does. To equate spontaneous abortion with elective abortion is like equating natural death to assisted suicide. They are at as opposite ends of the spectrum as could two thing ever be.

I do not profess to have all of the answers regarding the rights or wrongs of abortion, nor due I say that it is my right to tell a rape victim that she cannot have an abortion. I do, however believe it is my responsibility to take the time to educate individuals to what abortion is, let them hear the Ultrasound, let them become fully informed as to the decisions they are making. As a society we are far too quick to say, have an abortion, and not inform the women about what is actually being done and the long-term physical and psychological effects it might have on them.

[popgun]

Re: Abortion

billygoat, may I ask you a question?

What did the ER do with the fetus from the spontaneous abortion?

I happen to agree with almost every point you have made and I wonder how we as a member of the human race can just dispose of a fetus like a piece of tissue, appendix or tonsils.

If we truly believe that life begins at conception we should treat the aborted fetus as a death of one of our offspring, or at least fellow human being.

In all societies, humanity has been judged by how they treated the dead.

A certain amount of respect was always given whether the death occurred among the Native Americans, the Australian Aborigines, or in modern human behavior.

Archaeologist have found that the way a society treated it's dead was a good indicator of how they treated the living.

This whole subject seems to be surrounded by basically one unknown factor.

Where does life begin?

Is it at birth, or conception, or somewhere in between?

Funerals are held every day for those who have died.

Every day there are obituaries listed in our local paper for those who have died.

Every day thousands of embryos, fetuses, and unborn babies die from abortions and miscarriages.

Have you ever been to a funeral for a miscarriage of an embryo, fetus, or unborn?

You probably haven’t.

Neither have I.

Some people say that we sometimes make too big a deal of funerals, because the funeral is for the living.

We humans are not showing proper respect for the dead, and until we do, how can we possibly convince anyone that the miscarriage, or the aborted embryo, or fetus was actually a live human being?

I'm beginning to have flashbacks, as though I have already discussed this subject here before. If so, I apologize. .....popgun

[buckee]

Re: Abortion

Great posts popgun and Billygoat.

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Have you ever been to a funeral for a miscarriage of an embryo, fetus, or unborn?

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I was 35 years ago, when my Aunt had a miscarriage. That little guy was my cousin, who died before I got a chance to play with him. It was common-place back then to morn for the unborn.

OH How things change.

[Norm Sauceman]

Re: Abortion

Muggs, about the woman who is date raped..it is exactly my point that people should take responsibility and quit trying to hide and STAND UP.

[Norm Sauceman]

Re: Abortion

Na, I was not wanting to stir the pot today.. I have changed meds and about to go STIR CRAZY!!!!!!!!!

I can't wait to get the videos you guys are sending me..

[Norm Sauceman]

Re: Abortion

You folks are keeping this topic and my other one just right..No cussing or name calling..just plain old debating. I thank you all for that.

[IowaDeerHunter]

Re: Abortion

Ok guys I will give my opinion, or try to anyway with making some sense. i go to a Catholic school and this is a HUGE subject in our school. To start I believe that all life is sacred from conception to natural death. And quoted by George W. Bush, The right to life does not come from the government but from our creator. (Those words aren't exact but it was pretty much like that). i think that a woman can give a baby up for adoption. Even if they are raped, which would be one wrong(even thought not by the girl) and then having it aborted, would be another wrong, and two rights don't make a wrong. It was not the girls falt that she got pregnant from rape, or incest, but why make the situation worse by having an abortion and killing a living baby, who is breathing and heart is beating inside the mothers womb. So how can people say that when they abort a baby it is not a living human being, only a "glob of tissue". I am all pro-life!!! I can't think of much else to say besides the fact that All Life is sacred from womb to tomb.

[billygoat]

Re: Abortion

Popgun: The infant was released to the funeral home of the families choice. To my understanding, the family was planning a small private burial. It's always a very sad time around here when we encounter these situations. I come from a small community of about 8000 so we do not see a significant amount of fetal demise cases.

[horst]

Re: Abortion

Ive been on both sides of this and will offer my .03 cents, Im no expert on the subject but have had direct experience with it and can tell you its not always as cut and dried as youd like to think.

Some of you know Ive got a daughter from another relationship I was in.I was young, just outta high school and the mother was even younger.I used to party a lot, drinking, drugs, etc...and the relationship wasnt working out and we split up.Awhile later I heard through the grapevine that she was pregnant with my kid but was planning on having an abortion.I called and found out it was true, and she already had the date set.To condense the story a little I met with her, talked her out of it and my daughter was born.Eventually things didnt work out anyway and she took my kid outta state and I havent been able to see her for over 10 yrs.At one point I coulda signed custody over and never had to pay child support again.A lotta guys probably would have, the odds of me seeing that kid again are pretty non existant by this point.Its cost me a ton of money since then, put a strain on my present relationship and resulted in me being jailed, losing my hunting and driving licenses, going to court on more than one occasion, and more.But I couldnt sign that kid over anymore than I could have sat back and been part of her being aborted.I complain about the child support and the way the court system works but I wouldnt have done anything differently.

Ive told this other story before.Me and my wifes second pregnancy.The ultrasound showed some abnormal things.The baby didnt have one of his kidneys and the other wasnt functional because of a flap of skin that had grown over the opening.It was very much alive in the womb but wasnt going to survive after the birth.Since Ive told this one Im not gonna go into great detail again.I wanted to carry it to term, every part of me wanted to.But I also had my son and wife to think about.It wasnt fair to them either to put them through a full term pregnancy and deliever a baby that wasnt gonna make it.We discussed it and went back.They induced labor, my second son was born alive, we all got to hold him, and I was still holding him when his heart stopped beating.The autoposy showed more than just his kidneys werent right and he would have never stood a chance.And we buried him.

Sometimes abortions an easy out, my life would be a lot less complicated if Id have ignored the problem the first time and let her go ahead with it.But I couldnt do it.Other times it can be the hardest decision youll ever have to make.I dont think there can be any one set of laws to cover it, everyones situations different and every pregnancy can have its own ups and downs.Im sure some people can have an abortion and think nothing of it, but the majority I really believe have a hard time with it, its a decision you live with the rest of your life and I dont think many people can make the decision lightly.

[wtnhunt]

Re: Abortion

On popgun and billygoats responses here I myself have heard of funerals for unborn children due to miscarriages or other reasons where for some reason the baby never made it to term. It happens and is truly sad especially for those who lose their child they do in fact love.

On the issue of killing a fetus to save the life of a woman or the rare cases that do in fact occur with twins where one must be aborted to save the other, I think those are justifiable reasons that you have to just accept as hard as it may be. Yes killing one to save the other is wrong, but you have to ask yourself if it is really right to let both die? Again it seems hypocritical to say you have to make exceptions, but IMHO you really do for those situations out of the ordinary such as health issues and rape.

Back on the rape issue. I agree with what texan til i die says about the baby not being at fault, however the woman is not at fault either,and she should not have to carry inside of her part of what had been done to her out of hatred. That is just not right. Guess I may be a hypocrit to some degree in that I can see where the woman who has been raped should have the option of abortion only if she has had proper counseling and it is in fact confirmed to have been the result of a rape,in yet I am totally against abortion as a means of birth control after the fact by those too irresponsible to take responsibility for their actions.

This issue has come up in here a few times in the past. Been a pretty good civil discussion so far.

[Norm Sauceman]

Re: Abortion

Horst. You are one of the issues I discussed in my opening statement. YOU took responsibility. I salute that and I am sorry for you loss too. But if more people took responsibility and stepped up to the plate, we really would not have the problems we have today with abortion. Just think, if everyone used protection when they had sex, we would have MANY MANY less abortions that we have now. Even with the failure rate of birth control.

[OJR]

Re: Abortion

Norm, I agree with everyone taking responsibility! Not only with the sex issue but in every facet of life!

It seems that responsibility is something that is fast disappearing. All we get is finger pointing! Never say, "I screwed up or I did it"! Always accuse someone else!

[VermontHunter]

Re: Abortion

The dreded double edge sword that today's scociety has developed...dang if you do...dang if you don't...having a sister that was raped with the result of a pregnacey.

So just to be safe I think I'll keep my opinions on this subject to myself and say that you're all my friends no matter which side of the fence you are standing on...

[Norm Sauceman]

Re: Abortion

VH, if it is YOUR opinion there can't be anything held against you bud. Like the death penalty issue. I have personal feelings about it so I let it beknown and hold nothing against anyone who disagrees. These forums are not about popularity, but bonds that can be strong by those who do think alike. I do welcome your opinion. I too have personal feelings about th erape thing. A girl I was going to marry was raped...Now, NO, we did not break up because of it..She was raped before we got together...but I would have cut the throat of the SOB that did it if I could.

[bulldawg]

Re: Abortion

I believe a woman who has been raped has the option of ending the pregnancy, or keeping it going. She never gave anyone permission to start a life inside of her. Just because God gave her the necessary equipment to start a new life inside of her, doesn't mean that she should just give birth if the pregnancy is forced on her.

The costs associated with the birthing process are astronomical these days. Not to mention the physical and mental stress involved. A baby born under these conditions is not good for the baby, or the woman if taken to term, unwanted. It's my opinion, and I feel very strongly about it.

And about the miscarriage issue...my wife had a miscarriage on our first one. It was a boy(ultrasound said so), and the fetus just disappeared after the 5th month. It's still a mystery to this day. And, to tell the honest to God's truth, I almost started yelling at the nurse when she asked me about what I was going to do for the funeral arrangements.

I told her in a very sarcastic tone, that I would surely hold a funeral, if there was something there to hold one for! At that point in time, it just seemed like they were looking at a little monetary gain for the funeral parlor, or something. Call me cold, but I just couldn't see spending money on that. We still have the memories, and we talk to each other about it now and then.

Well, I'm rambling, so I'll shut up now...

[wtnhunt]

Re: Abortion

Try thinking of this in a little different light. Consider yourself in a situation.

Say your 14 or 15 year old daughter gets raped. The boy is caught and is a 21 year old predator who is not new to raping young women,he gets locked up and it is a good thing, because believe me he is safer in jail. Your daughter finds out she is pregnant as a result of the crime against her. She does not want any reminders of what happened to her and asks to have the pregnancy aborted. She is deeply depressed counselors worry she could be suicidal and they also suggest aborting the pregnancy. You guys who say that rape is never an option, how would you feel looking your own baby in the eyes and telling her she has to have this baby that she did not ask for because killing the baby inside her made from the hatred of some piece of crap is wrong. Me honestly I could not do it.

[buckee]

Re: Abortion

I agree Willy. A lot would depend on the victim's mental and physical state .

It's terrible that a rapist not only forces himself on a victim and leaves her pregnant, but also forces her to have to make a decision about another life inside her.

I would like to see rapists who have been convicted with overwhelming evidence castrated.

I think that might prevent a few of these "hard decision" abortions.

[Strut10]

Re: Abortion

[ QUOTE ]

I would like to see rapists who have been convicted with overwhelming evidence castrated.

I think that might prevent a few of these "hard decision" abortions.

[/ QUOTE ]

Well here's another can of worms. I'd have absolutely no problem having "rape" be a capital offense. I'd like to see them executed.

[VermontHunter]

Re: Abortion

Let me go here guys.....with first hand knowledge of this senario that wtnhunt has brought up, and then I'll let you go at it.....

This senario is all too real and happen's......Believe it or not the rapist as the father of this baby now has parental rights to this child and there's nothing that can prohibit him by LAW from interfering with the woman that was raped and any of her family members that may show intrest in this baby....This is fact and LAW, look it up..I don't have to I live with it on a dailey basis..... A SHOCKER ISN'T IT....

[buckee]

Re: Abortion

Now that right there Luke is ridiculous. Not you man, the law. There is no way a rapist should have any parental claims on the baby of his victim....NO WAY

Now there is one of them Human rights things that just don't make sense and belongs in the "Animal rights" category

[VermontHunter]

Re: Abortion

There ya go....there's always something behind door number three, that nobody get's to see or hear until it's too late....but it's true all he has to do is prove geniticaly that he is indeed the father and he has by LAW all the right's of a father that had consentual sex. Like it or not it's on the books and to this date has never been changed...so there is a factor that is never seen or heard that the woman and her family have to deal with that no-one gets to hear. This is because the father's right's are held mute in the media as to protect his so called rights.