johnf Posted March 6, 2008 Report Share Posted March 6, 2008 I've been having a discussion with a guy here in Arkansas about the "Will of God". I believe that not everything that happens is the will of God. If it was then everyone would be saved and nothing bad would happen. Sure God can take something bad and make good out of it, but is the bad thing His will. Does he want a 10 year old girl to be raped? I don't think so. Can he use that and make something good come of it? Sure he can, and does. I believe the phrase "the rain will fall on the just and the unjust" means that some things just happen. What say you all? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
muggs Posted March 6, 2008 Report Share Posted March 6, 2008 Interesting point. I agree with you, but I think I view it slightly different. I believe that God's will is in us all, it's that part of us that is sometimes referred to as the Holy Spirit or Holy Ghost. Now, whether or not we realize this, and develop our own spirit is up to the individual. The bad that happens in the world is the evil, and created by evil people- like a man who would rape a 10-year old. In other words, these people choose to ignore, or even fight against this part of our minds. So, I guess what I'm saying is that I don't think God's will is something that controls the events that happen, but I do believe that God has placed his will in all of us, but it's up to us to realize and accept the responsibility to follow that will. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dawg Posted March 6, 2008 Report Share Posted March 6, 2008 Would have to agree with you on this one John. I preached a message about this very subject once and actually had some folk question what I was saying. My thoughts are this: We here people say that God is on control, right? Well if God were in control of everyhthing, then everything would be under control, right? We know that not everything is under control in this world, therefore God isn't in control of everthing. For example, you mentioned a 10 year old girl being raped. God is not in control of that, but as you said He can make some good out of it. We just had a lady that was in a car accident in the church I attend now. While in the hospital the doctors found some blood clots that were not related to the accident. Now what if she would have never been in that accident, would she have known that she had blood clots? I think not, but God in His soverign knowledge, made something good out of something bad. I think you and I are on the same page on this one John. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest SuperKirby Posted March 6, 2008 Report Share Posted March 6, 2008 I agree with muggs. To say that God is not in control of everything limits God. God is all-powerful, all-knowing, all-everything. His will and his control are different. If God isn't in control of my life, then I might as well give up now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnf Posted March 6, 2008 Author Report Share Posted March 6, 2008 I don't mean that God is unable to control things, but that he chooses not to sometimes. In his infinite wisdom and knowledge he knows the outcome, but dosn't necessarily causes it, but lets it happen. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
muggs Posted March 6, 2008 Report Share Posted March 6, 2008 I agree with muggs. To say that God is not in control of everything limits God. God is all-powerful, all-knowing, all-everything. His will and his control are different. If God isn't in control of my life, then I might as well give up now. Actually, that's not really what I'm saying. I'm saying that you are in control of your life. God has put inside everyone what they need to follow him, but it's up to the individual to be aware enough to choose to follow him. Once they do, he'll lead you, but you first have to be aware enough to develop your own spirituality. I guess a Baptist would call this level of awareness as one being "saved" through "grace." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnf Posted March 6, 2008 Author Report Share Posted March 6, 2008 So then what about those who have been turned over to their "reprobate" minds? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aksheephuntress Posted March 6, 2008 Report Share Posted March 6, 2008 .......I feel Muggs has a powerful understanding .......and each of you have really insightful points.Thanks for this thread,Johnf... God knows all, and is inside of us. I truly believe his will IS the Holy Spirit .It is His hope and love and understanding that exceeds our understanding. We were given the gift and responsibility of our own free will. It is what we choose to do with this will, and the obedience and harmony between this, and Gods will,that we will be held accountable for. And yes, I agree with John, too in that sometimes God chooses not to interfere. Yes, maybe before the Fall...in the Garden of Eden, God was in control of everything.......Adam and Eve were innocent ,like children. ....But when we took from the Tree of Knowledge....that bittersweet moment when we then realized right from wrong,and gained a different sight....maybe that was God's plan, too....He knew we would take that step, and be granted the gift of Free Will.We did not have Free Will before that point...so that had to have been God's plan, and Will.We had to have fallen from innocence and gained free will in order to later fully see and partake in the awesome , eternal gift of Salvation that He sacrificed for us, through His Son. ....With this responsibility and choice....and knowledge and understanding of right and wrong....we have the opportunity to actively,consciously accept Jesus in our heart. With God's Grace, and Understanding, and especially His Timing,He helps guide us in our choices. ...With the Father, and the Son, and the Holy Ghost. Father, help guide us through these times. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wtnhunt Posted March 6, 2008 Report Share Posted March 6, 2008 Have had many similar discussions, and have to agree with some of what is said above, and yes this is a very good topic John. Simply put in my opinion or in my understanding, God allows man to have the control over his own choices that ultimately He knows we will make. You can call it "free will" or call it whatever you like, God does allow man to make the choices in his life that are right or wrong and then also allows us to turn to Him when we do make those wrong decisions that we all make. Often times through making wrong decisions in life, some of us actually strengthen our faith. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
muggs Posted March 6, 2008 Report Share Posted March 6, 2008 So then what about those who have been turned over to their "reprobate" minds? Well, after I looked up "reprobate" in the dictionary (), I'd say those people have choosen (whether they realize this consciously or not) to follow evil, or rather, ignore God. People like Hitler, serial killers etc... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aksheephuntress Posted March 6, 2008 Report Share Posted March 6, 2008 Well, after I looked up "reprobate" in the dictionary (), I'd say those people have choosen (whether they realize this consciously or not) to follow evil, or rather, ignore God. People like Hitler, serial killers etc... ......... I laughed when you said you looked reprobate up in the dictionary!!-I admire you for saying that- I didn't have the guts to admit in my post,that I had to look it up, too! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Missilelock Posted March 6, 2008 Report Share Posted March 6, 2008 i have a bit of a question with muggs theory. I do believe we have a inate sense of right & wrong, but I question that it is the holy spirit. poeple clearly didnt recieve the Holy Spirit till the day of pentecost, & even since then we dont recieve the Holy Spirit untill we come to Christ for forgiveness. I think that whatever direction we choose for our lives before we are saved has more to do with outside influences than the Holy Spirit. I agree that God is in ultimate control of everything, but he mostly takes a "hands off" approach & lets us have our own free will. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aksheephuntress Posted March 6, 2008 Report Share Posted March 6, 2008 i have a bit of a question with muggs theory. I do believe we have a inate sense of right & wrong, but I question that it is the holy spirit. poeple clearly didnt recieve the Holy Spirit till the day of pentecost, & even since then we dont recieve the Holy Spirit untill we come to Christ for forgiveness. I think that whatever direction we choose for our lives before we are saved has more to do with outside influences than the Holy Spirit. I agree that God is in ultimate control of everything, but he mostly takes a "hands off" approach & lets us have our own free will. ........Remember the "Footprints" poem?.... .....I feel the Holy Spirit is there, available to us always, intervening at times. Receiving the Holy Spirit is up to our individual understanding,submission, and acceptance of it in our hearts. The Holy Spirit is always there-in us, and for us, regardless. Perhaps Pentacost is that moment of acceptance, and truly understanding Jesus' sacrifice for us. http://www.llerrah.com/footprints.htm Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dawg Posted March 6, 2008 Report Share Posted March 6, 2008 Like the folk that questioned my message, I feel a few of you have misunderstood what I am saying. I firmly believe that God is not in control of rapes, murders, robberies, etc. He can't be. Therefore, He is not in control of everything. Yes, He does allow us to make our own choices. That is where rapes, murders, etc. come from. The Holy Spirit is not the will of God. The Holy Spirit is the one who imputes the will of God into our lives. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnf Posted March 7, 2008 Author Report Share Posted March 7, 2008 Sorry about the big word, I'll try to use smaller ones so's the masses can understand. Just kidding, that's a fairly common word around here and I didn't even think about it when I was writing that. I think the whole Holy Spirit thing may be misunderstood by some of us. I am a true believer that when you accept Christ as your personal saviour that the holy spirit comes into your heart, soul whatever and dwells there forever. I think before then it is able to influence and guide us, but without that personal relationship with Christ it is strictly an outside force. Only with that personal relationship does the spirit dwell within. If you look at the baptism of Christ the Holy Spirit came to him. This is Christ I'm talking about, God in the flesh, and the holy spirit came to Him. It seems awfully presumptuous to believe that we can possess something that the living son of God had to be given. Doesn't it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aksheephuntress Posted March 7, 2008 Report Share Posted March 7, 2008 Like the folk that questioned my message, I feel a few of you have misunderstood what I am saying. I firmly believe that God is not in control of rapes, murders, robberies, etc. He can't be. Therefore, He is not in control of everything. Yes, He does allow us to make our own choices. That is where rapes, murders, etc. come from. The Holy Spirit is not the will of God. The Holy Spirit is the one who imputes the will of God into our lives. ........Yes, that actually helps me understand this better....Thankyou,Hogdawg... ....Hey....Johnf.....but I thought that this was the ultimate gift that Christ gave to us-he paid that price,for our sins....and we are to sin,no more? -This is why it is so humbling to me to think about his crucifiction,and ascension. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
buckee Posted March 7, 2008 Report Share Posted March 7, 2008 Like the folk that questioned my message, I feel a few of you have misunderstood what I am saying. I firmly believe that God is not in control of rapes, murders, robberies, etc. He can't be. Therefore, He is not in control of everything. Yes, He does allow us to make our own choices. That is where rapes, murders, etc. come from. The Holy Spirit is not the will of God. The Holy Spirit is the one who imputes the will of God into our lives.I agree. God made a divine, sovereign and omnipotent choice, to make us with a free will, and a divine, sovereign and omnipotent choice to provide us with his saving grace, through his Son, from our own demise(sinfulness). If you look up the word's " God's will", or "God's sovereign will" in the dictionary, all you get is "the omnipotence of a divine being". Doesn't tell you much about God's nature, does it ..LOL. If you look up just the word "Will" you will get all the different uses of the term. When we apply those definitions to a divine, sovereign and omnipotent God, we get a little more loving and caring definition of what "God's will", actually means in many different passages and uses of the term in the bible. I believe the word "will" in the Bible, means the same in the dictionary, only divine, sovereign and omnipotent. God's sovereign ..... Will: 1. - a. The mental faculty by which one deliberately chooses or decides upon a course of action: ( God's sovereign or predetermined action.) b. The act of exercising the will. ( God's sovereign exorcise of his choice ) 2. - a. Diligent purposefulness; determination: ( God's sovereign purpose and preordained determination for mankind ) b. Self-control; self-discipline: (leave out self ..... God's sovereign control and sovereign discipline.) 3. A desire, purpose, or determination, especially of one in authority: ( It is God's sovereign will (desire, purpose and determination) that all mankind be saved.) 4. Deliberate intention or wish: ( God's sovereign intention or wish for mankind) 5. Free discretion; inclination or pleasure: ( God's sovereign discretion, inclination, or pleasure) 6. Bearing or attitude toward others; disposition: ( God's sovereign attitude and disposition toward mankind) 7. a. A legal declaration of how a person wishes his or her possessions to be disposed of after death. ( God's sovereign will to give us eternal life through the blood and death of Jesus. Our inheritance, if we believe) b. A legally executed document containing this declaration. ( God's sovereign word ) When people talk about God's will, they are often referring to a variety of different things. The disciples once asked Christ: "What must we do to do the works God requires?" In response, Jesus said, "The work of God is this: to believe in the one he has sent" (John 6:28-29). In other words, God's sovereign will (desire) is that we believe in the one (Jesus) whom he has sent. Sometimes, God makes His "will" very obvious. It is clearly God's "will"( desire, purpose, or determination ) that we need to work at loving and serving others, becoming more like Christ, telling others about God, and valuing the things that God values. Jesus said in Mark 3:35, "Whoever does God's will is my brother and sister and mother." In John 7:17, Jesus reiterated: "If anyone chooses to do God's will, he will find out whether my teaching comes from God or whether I speak on my own." I could go on and on about how the definition of the words "God's Will" changes meanings, throughout the bible, and yet still stays divine, sovereign and omnipotent. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnf Posted March 7, 2008 Author Report Share Posted March 7, 2008 ........Yes, that actually helps me understand this better....Thankyou,Hogdawg... ....Hey....Johnf.....but I thought that this was the ultimate gift that Christ gave to us-he paid that price,for our sins....and we are to sin,no more? -This is why it is so humbling to me to think about his crucifiction,and ascension. Not really sure where your coming from on that? I'm just guessing here, but if your referring to my last post. Let me make it clear that I do think when you accept Christ as your saviour that the Holy Spirit dwells in you from that point onward. Until you do though the Holy Spirit is only an outside force that influences. I don't believe anyone carries any semblance of the Holy Spirit until they have that belief and relationship with Christ. I think that is a biblicaly sound statement. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
muggs Posted March 7, 2008 Report Share Posted March 7, 2008 I think the whole Holy Spirit thing may be misunderstood by some of us. I am a true believer that when you accept Christ as your personal saviour that the holy spirit comes into your heart, soul whatever and dwells there forever. I think it's always there, but most don't realize it until their awareness increases to a level that allows them to realize it's been there. This event can be labeled in all sorts of ways, whether a group refers to it as "accepting Christ" or being "saved through grace" or "reaching spiritual enlightenment"...whatever. But John, if you believe that one has to "accept Christ as their personal savior" I'm understanding that to mean that you believe a person must make a conscious decision to accept God into their lives. So, wouldn't that mean you beleive that man is in control of their lives? I think we agree. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wtnhunt Posted March 7, 2008 Report Share Posted March 7, 2008 Eric, Ephesians discusses the will of God, and from my interpretation is pretty clear on this. Start with Ephesians 1:2 and read on to Ephesians 4. Think the answers are right there. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
muggs Posted March 7, 2008 Report Share Posted March 7, 2008 William, I'm not sure if you're saying I should read that to confirm my point or to rethink my point. Because, after reading that, I think that supports what I'm saying. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnf Posted March 7, 2008 Author Report Share Posted March 7, 2008 Eric, Ephesians discusses the will of God, and from my interpretation is pretty clear on this. Start with Ephesians 1:2 and read on to Ephesians 4. Think the answers are right there. That supports predestination, but does not support whether or not the Holy Spirit abides in us before we are saved. Eph 2.22And in him you too are being built together to become a dwelling in which God lives by his Spirit. How can one "Become" a dwelling for the spirit if the spirit is already within? Eph 3:16 I pray that out of his glorious riches he may strengthen you with power through his Spirit in your inner being, 17so that Christ may dwell in your hearts through faith. And I pray that you, being rooted and established in love, 18may have power, together with all the saints, to grasp how wide and long and high and deep is the love of Christ, 19and to know this love that surpasses knowledge—that you may be filled to the measure of all the fullness of God. Again the way I see this is something that will happen after receiving Christ. It say "may dwell", "may have power","may be filled" I think this clearly demonstrates that you must get the spirit first, then those things happen. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wtnhunt Posted March 7, 2008 Report Share Posted March 7, 2008 William, I'm not sure if you're saying I should read that to confirm my point or to rethink my point. Because, after reading that, I think that supports what I'm saying. Guess it is all a matter of interpretation Eric, I am not arguing your view, but saying that Ephesians might help with understanding, possibly reinforcing your view for your interpretation. That supports predstination, but does not support whether or not the Holy Spirit abides in us before we are saved. Ephesians 1: "4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love 5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will, 6 To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved" LOL, you edited before I was done typing John. In my view really looks like it kind of does. Guess it is all a matter of how you take the words. God is here/there whether we accept him or not, right? It is after we accept Christ that our relationship with Him grows. All a matter of interpretation. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnf Posted March 7, 2008 Author Report Share Posted March 7, 2008 Then what of those who are not chosen or predestined to be saved? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnf Posted March 7, 2008 Author Report Share Posted March 7, 2008 Sorry, I'll try to finish a thought before hitting submit next time. That's my ADD in action. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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