What causes a faster, more humane kill?

[Randy]

I already know which direction this is going to head but, I need to ask anyways. Today at work a guy was telling me that a 110 gr. bullet fired at 3300 fps will kill a deer faster than a 200 gr. bullet fired at 2200 fps. He explained that by killing a deer with a gun, they will die one of two ways. The first way, hemmoraging. (this would be like shooting a deer with a bow). The second way, (and I forgot what he called it) was something to do with the speed in which a bullet passes through the body and causes "shock waves" through the fluid in the body. This usually results in them dropping where they stand? Is this true? I think it makes sense. :rolleyes:

[huntinguide]

I think you need a mix of both. You dont want your bullet making a nice neat hole through and through with no wound channel, this will not have enough blood loss. But on the other hand you dont want the bullet fragmenting quickly before it penetrates into the chest cavity. A controlled expansion bullet like noslers partition gives you controlled expansion.

The word you are looking for is what i call hydrolic shock, much like when you shoot the water and the fish are stunned or paralized. A bullet is designed to do what they wanted it too do, no matter if its at 2200 or 3200, but some bullets at high speeds that are not made for high speeds and will fragments to quick. A soft point will hold together and penetrate but is still soft enough to fragment when inside and will usaually exit unless you hit bone.

someone else can add to this that is just how i look at it.

[Rhino]

Shock will definately have an effect but I'm honestly not sure if you would see much of a difference between the 2 rounds you mentioned.

I can certainly tell the shock effect difference between deer hit with my .308 and my 30-378. However, they don't always drop right where they were standing when hit with my 30-378 even though it delivers a 165 gr. bullet at ~900 fps faster than my .308 load using a 150 gr. bullet shot from my Rem. Model 7. Some drop in their tracks and some don't but the ones that don't drop in their tracks don't go far due to the shock effect. Some drop in their tracks with my .308 too but the percentage is lower. In either case though a lot more depends on where they are hit regarding dropping them in their tracks IMHO.

I've also dropped a higher percentage of deer and pigs in their tracks using my 45-70 firing a 300 gr. bullet at ~2000 fps than I have with my .308 load.

Anyway...overall the faster humane kill is the round that is put in the right spot.

[wtnhunt]

Good question really Randy. Think the energies that are expended to the deer by the rounds would be the biggest factor and I could see looking at ballistics tables where some heavier rounds would not hold as much energy over distances as do lighter rounds that are moving faster. I know that a 100 grain core lokt from a .243 will carry about as much energy as a 150 grain core lokt from a .270 at around 300 yards. Think both would be effective at killing deer at that distance. Ironically of the deer my wife has shot with her .243, granted she has not killed all that many yet, but she has had yet to have to track one. I have had a few with the .270 that have made it a little ways.

Another potential side of the argument to this with shooting the faster smaller rounds that I seem to hear a lot around here is that deer do not bleed well from the small calibers. Have heard some that suggest a min of a .30 caliber is needed on deer to get good blood trails, which I totally disagree with.

[Randy]

Thanks guys, this is a cool discussion! He stated that depending on the bullet and how it is made would make a big difference. A bullet that would open faster would transfer more energry to the deer versus one that would open slowly. He explained it as "wasted energy". He told me to get a 130gr bullet versus a 150, as they have been produced for a longer period of time. I think he was trying to tell me that they are "better perfected"?

[JJL]

110 grains @ 3300 fps = 2660 ft. lbs

220 grains @ 2200 fps = 2364 ft. lbs

296 ft. lbs towards a 175 lb whitetail is negligable energy. Assuming the bullets are of the same design, I'd choose the larger caliber. It has more frontal area and would transmit more of its energy into the deer. Thus causing more internal damage and a larger wound channel.

[johnf]

I've heard several different theories. I've got one friend that shoot 257 Roberts that believes any exit wound is wasted energy. He loads ballistics tips in it and says the perfect shot leaves what remains of the bullet just under the far side skin. With this the bullet uses 100% of it's energy in the wound channel. It's easy to see that if there is a gaping hole on the other side that the bullet did not do all of the damage that it could have.

The only problem I see with this theory is in tracking for obvious reasons. I have had that scenario shooting Winchester supreme 243 on a deer, but there wasn't much of a tracking job. She jumped twice and dropped. You couldn't really see a wound channel, everything was like red jello.

I would rather have an exit hole and a blood trail to follow just in case.

To answer your question, I don't think it can be answered. I think shot placement matters more than anything else regardless of what bullet or caliber you choose to shoot.

[johnf]

110 grains @ 3300 fps = 2660 ft. lbs

220 grains @ 2200 fps = 2364 ft. lbs

296 ft. lbs towards a 175 lb whitetail is negligable energy. Assuming the bullets are of the same design, I'd choose the larger caliber. It has more frontal area and would transmit more of its energy into the deer. Thus causing more internal damage and a larger wound channel.

To paraphrase: All things being equal, a bigger hole is better. The bullet that transferred the most energy to the deer would more effectively kill it.

I think the bigger slower bullet would transfer more energy, because of the drag it would create after impact.

[Strut10]

First of all......I think your buddy needs to do a little more researcing on his facts rather than extolling his external ballistics theory in a Cliff Clavenesque manner.

I know of no 110 gr. .30 caliber bullet that is suitably designed to hunt whitetails. The 110's are desingned as thin-jacketed varmint type bullets. I shot a whitetail with one from a .308 Win. once. ONCE.

Secondly........this is the 21st century. It mattereth not how many years one grain bullet's been in production versus another. Seniority has nothing to do with it.

I am not nuch of a believer in the "hydraulic shock" theory. The areas that are affected by the bullet's displacement of body fluids are the bruised areas you see around the the wound channel. Supposedly hydraulic shock puts terrific pressure on the critter's brain and it dies. I have yet to shoot a deer behind the shoulder and find (upon inpection) that it had a bruised brain. Generally there's a 6" or so area of hematoma surroundiong the wound. If the theory that ultra-high velocity killed best due to hydraulic shock, then one would surmise that my best option for deer hunting would be 35 gr. Hornady V-Max bullets loaded in my .220 Swift to about 4600 fps........right???

What kills deer-sized critters is a properly constructed bullet of sufficient mass placed correctly. A 510 gr. at 2500 fps from a .460 Weatherby through the guts will not kill as effectively as a 117 gr. at 2500 fps from a .257 Roberts tucked behind the front leg. Larger calibers, higher velocities and heavier bullets enable the shooter to reach vitals from longer distances and poorer angles. Shot placement and sound bullet construction being

constants......the more "horsepower" the round develops (velolcity, energy and bullet diameter) should increase one's chances of making a successful kill.

[aksheephuntress]

.........Yes, I like this thread....and I agree, shot placement is probably the most critical!

...and, the way a bullet is made.

...the foot-per pounds of energy as the principal guide to killing power has been used for years, especially before newer advances in bullet construction technology.

The formula : energy=bullet weight(grains) x velocity(fps)sq Divided by 450,400

Considered the best known formula for calculating bullet effectiveness is the "knock out power" formula.....Multiply the weight of the bullet by velocity,then multiplying the result by bullet diameter, and dividing the product by 7,000.

BUT: This formula was developrd at a time when nearly all hunting bullets were jacketed, lead-core designs.Hence- we enter the point of bullet construction....the amazing results from an extremely tough, small-diameter bullet traveling at an extremely high speed.

...It seems that maximum penetration delivers more tissue destruction and SHOCK.-and, as a couple of you mentioned before, a useful blood trail.

....This month's RIFLE- SPORTING FIREARMS JOURNAL....has an excellent comprehensive article on this very subject....entitled "Forget Foot Pounds".-I have been familiar with this "newer" school of thought ,but never has it been explained to me this clearly, and thoroughly ,until I read this article just the other day....and this convinced me that the argument that "fully penetrating bullets waste their energy on the exit"doesn't hold water.

....Also, Most of what I have posted here is from this article....I thought it important to include some of the content,and main points, instead of merely pasting the link....(I have to find the web link, first....give me a minute)....I didn't want to take the chance of some people not bothering to click on the link.

.....PS....a recent thread on the .25 cal WSSM , in my opinion, is a prime example of this argument....exemplifying superior penetrating bullet construction.

...Here it is!....Highly recomend reading this...nice pic of a Cape Buffalo on the cover, anyway:D....also, good articles on the .257 Weatherby Vanguard, and nosler .48.

....Heck , the whole magazine was hard to put down!-enjoy.

http://www.riflemagazine.com/magazine/PDF/ri236partial.pdf

[Dubie]

I think there is something to be said for bullet diameter here. This year alone, I shot a buck with my .50 cal black-powder, and another buck with my 7mm Rem Mag. The 7mm deer took it behind the front sholder, through one lung, the top of the ouside lung, and out the neck. It was a pretty good shot, yet the deer still made it a good 50 yards into the bush, with no blood trail to speak of. My theory was, since it was such a close shot, the little bullet wizzed through faster then it could expand, producing the unusual result. Now compare that to the muzzle loader deer, who took a nossler through both lungs broadside at 200+ yards. The deer died about 6 feet back from where I shot it (tumbled into the ditch). When I got there, it looked like a murder scene there was so much blood. If I did have to trail him, it would be like following a highway.

Oh, and that word was Hydrostatic Shock. Its dammage isn't always visible, but it can be devistating on the hollow organs. Its the reason your deer lungs probably look like a cavity full of blood with pink flecks in it rather then lungs with a .30 inch hole through them.

[Randy]

Thanks now I'm thoroughly confused!! :rolleyes:

Ok, I'll just get to the point. I'm looking for a flat shooting, low recoil, rifle that will knock there butts in the dirt!! I'm torn between the 270, 270WSM, and the 7mm mag. I've probably killed in the neighborhood of 75-85 deer with the 270 but, I wouldn't mind reaching out just a little bit more with less adjustment, and cut down on the 40 yards that they usually run. From what I've read, the balistics on the 270 WSM and the 7mm mag with a 150 gr bullet are nearly identical. I've also heard that the wider and shorter casing on the WSM's is better because the powder burns faster and cleaner? Can we keep this to "stupid mans terms" (that's me ) and just throw out the numbers?

Just so you OTPG members know, I'm scared of anything bigger than the calibers I've listed!! :D:D

BTW, I am learning and I DO thank everybody for there insight!

[Dubie]

Well, I'd go with the 7mm myself. Almost every deer I shoot with it drops belly up, and is done, and the ones that do run, don't run very far. I'm sure you'll notice much the same with the 270 WSM. If you don't reload, however, 7mm Rem Mag ammo is everywhere, and not to pricey.

[johnf]

Here's a page from winchester.com showing the difference with 150gr. bullet in all 3 cal. The 7mm outperforms the 270 wsm slightly down range and the wsm outperforms the 7 at shorter ranges (doesn't make sence to me). Both considerably outperform the 270 but I don't see that you could really tell the difference until you got out past 300 yards.

http://winchester.com/products/catalog/comparerifle.aspx?multiadd=WDI3MFdTTS0xLTE=&action=3&ctype=1&atype=1

Personally I would stick with the 270. If your just itching for a new gun and you don't reload I would go with the one that shoots cheaper, I'm guessing that would be the 7mm.

[Randy]

I don't see that you could really tell the difference until you got out past 300 yards.

That's the difference I'm looking for. It's after 300 yards that I'm wondering about.

[Strut10]

I'm looking for a flat shooting, low recoil, rifle that will knock there butts in the dirt!! I'm torn between the 270, 270WSM, and the 7mm mag. I've probably killed in the neighborhood of 75-85 deer with the 270 but, I wouldn't mind reaching out just a little bit more with less adjustment, and cut down on the 40 yards that they usually run. From what I've read, the balistics on the 270 WSM and the 7mm mag with a 150 gr bullet are nearly identical. I've also heard that the wider and shorter casing on the WSM's is better because the powder burns faster and cleaner? Can we keep this to "stupid mans terms" (that's me ) and just throw out the numbers?

How about the new Remington 700 in .257 Weatherby. Flatter shooting than just about anything else out there.......pretty easy on the shoulder............ and quite sufficient for deer-sized game.

Just so you OTPG members know, I'm scared of anything bigger than the calibers I've listed!! :D:D

Just curious.............do you know you are scared of the bigger stuff from firsthand experience........or have you just been told that a "so & so magnum" will rip your head off?? I'd hazard a guess that with a little instruction on shooting form I could have you shooting and enjoying some right stout calibers.

[aksheephuntress]

How about the new Remington 700 in .257 Weatherby. Flatter shooting than just about anything else out there.......pretty easy on the shoulder............ and quite sufficient for deer-sized game.

Just curious.............do you know you are scared of the bigger stuff from firsthand experience........or have you just been told that a "so & so magnum" will rip your head off?? I'd hazard a guess that with a little instruction on shooting form I could have you shooting and enjoying some right stout calibers.

.........Yes, I was wondering that when I read that part he had posted.....or, maybe he's been "scoped" a few times (AND NO I AM NOT REFERING TO ANY PAST "RIVAL" GROUP).

...It took me a while to get over that incident, when it happened to me.....with a nice stream of blood flowing down my forehead.

....Yes, I think Strut is right....it CAN be do-able, and enjoyable , given the right set-up.

I even enjoy shooting my .375 H&H ....but, I don't need to hunt with it( unless I get a Kodiak Brn bear permit).-The recoil is not as bad as you might think.

.....I, also, feel .257 Weatherby would be something you will like.-Just more superior overall, over 300 yds, as you are looking for..........Then, you get into bullet selection, again.

Rule of thumb, again....

1. Shot placement and

2. Bullet construction:)

[johnf]

Ballistics look great on that. I didn't think it could be possible to get that kind of power out of a 25 cal bullet. Then I looked at the price. OUCH!!

http://www.weatherby.com/products/ammo.asp?prd_id=3

[JJL]

Thanks now I'm thoroughly confused!! :rolleyes:

Ok, I'll just get to the point. I'm looking for a flat shooting, low recoil, rifle that will knock there butts in the dirt.

.308 win.

It's what my 11 yr. old daughter will be using this fall to harvest her first elk. NOW, come in off the ledge, I'm not refering to the 308 as a girls cartridge, I'm making the point that if you really want a "flat shooting- low recoil-butt in the dirt cartridge" it's the kitty.

Oftentimes we perceive the whitetail deer to be tougher than they really are, they're not. They're thin skinned and light boned as far as Large Game in North America go. You could kill one with a pool cue if given the opportunity. Elk-Bear-Moose-Bison, compare their structural make-up to a whitetail and you'll realize what a small framed animal we're talking about. They're not much bigger than a goat.

The 308 has plenty of punch and will reach out and touch them without the costly ammo and extensive recoil.

[woodshed]

I've got a 270 WSM and love it. I have dropped them in their tracks. One buck a couple years ago actually flipped over! He was standing on a hill side though,, but he still flipped.

I caution you with this one,,, it's expensive. I would love to shoot my gun more, but I can't,,,I'm too cheap.

I was at Bass Pro today. I was thinking. If I shot 15 boxes of these things, I'd be spending as much as a new rifle!!

[bowana]

First of all I want to say this is a great thread. I have been searching for the answer for some 25 years. I hunt Michigan, Indiana, Ohio, Illinois, Montana and Wyoming. I have killed some 180 Whitetails, Mulies, Bears and Pronghorns combined. Here are 3 things I have learned thus far:

1. If you can't see them you can't shoot them:

I know...this is suppose to be about energy and velocity etc., but if you do not posses the best optics, you don't get to plan B. keep this in mind. Buy the best optics you can afford before you buy that rifle.

2. Bullet placement far exceeds any other factor:

Know the anatomy of the game that you are hunting. Bears seldom leave a blood trail. Therefore I always use a big gun. In Canada where shots are close its a 450 Marlin. In Montana where shots can be 300+ I use a 300 Win Mag. Anything in the 7mm or 30 cal class will suffice for most Whitetails SHOULD BULLET PLACEMENT BE PERFECT. More on this. (JohnF you said it first)

3. Energy, Velocity and Accuracy do KILL!:

If you look at the 270 Mags (270 WSM, 270 Weatherby mag etc) you will see that the energy factors for 140 grain bullets are more than adequate for whitetails out to 400 yards. But, look at ballistic coefficient. When you do, you will notice that the 180 grain bullet..30 cal (Nosler Accubond, Hordandy Interbond, etc) hover around .460. The 338 Magnums....the 250 grain bullets from Nosler and Swift are around .475. If you were to place all on a bell shaped curve, I would rate the magnum 338 calibers as the best of the best whitetail killers. This would include the 338 mag, 340 Weatherby mag, 338 Remington Ultra Mag and the mighty 338-378 Weatherby Mag. My mighty 338-378 drives a 250 grain Nosler Partition around 3040 feet per second......about 5000 foot pounds at the muzzle.

4. Overkill:

I have never heard of a whitetail complain.

5. Shoot what you shoot best:

If you shoot a 280 Remington better than you shoot a Weatherby Vanguard in 300 win Mag......well forget about the mag label. Back to point number 2. If you can't put it in the boiler room....its not worth hunting with. Enough said.

6. We can talk, but deer do not listen:

I have shot a 200lb buck in Indiana with a 308 Savage Super Stryker (150 gr Nosler ballistic tip) and the 140 class buck traveled 25 yards. I shot a 330 lb mule deer at 70 yards with a Browning short trac 300 WSM 3 times center mass and the deer traveled 150+ yards.....I shot a doe with a 338 win mag that went 300 + yards....high in the shoulder. I shot a pronghorn at over 450 yards with a custom 30-06. 0 yards to recovery. I shot a doe in Michigan with a 475 Wildey Super Mag and I had to follow a looooong way to recover her. The point is this..............regardless of Cal, shot placement or situation......be prepared for anything. Its why we live for the hunt for whitetails, the unknown is always present.

7. Keep writing, asking questions and starting threads:

Keeps us all intrigued and interested........GREAT JOB!

Its like the center of a tootsie pop.......the world may never know!!

[Randy]

Just curious.............do you know you are scared of the bigger stuff from firsthand experience........or have you just been told that a "so & so magnum" will rip your head off?? I'd hazard a guess that with a little instruction on shooting form I could have you shooting and enjoying some right stout calibers.

LMBO!!

I'm not really afraid of them, it's just that two of my best friends have been shooting 300 Win Mags for as long as I can remember and if I actually went to one of them or bigger, I'd have a whole lot of words to eat!!! They'd never let me live it down!! :D

[Strut10]

LMBO!!

I'm not really afraid of them, it's just that two of my best friends have been shooting 300 Win Mags for as long as I can remember and if I actually went to one of them or bigger, I'd have a whole lot of words to eat!!! They'd never let me live it down!! :D

Ummmmmmmmm............O.K. It's definitely your prerogative. But if ya gotta eat a little crow to get into some serious upgrade.....hey.......the taste doesn't last that long and then you move on. The .300 Win Mag is one of the most incredible long range whitetail rounds going.

[wtnhunt]

Would agree with jjl here Randy. Take a look at the .308 win, or even a .30-06.

[RangerClay]

Here is my little spin on the hydraulic shock theory. With the ribs attached to the spine, it has been my theory that when a rib is hit with a bullet it causes a shock to the spine of the deer. That shock can temporarily immobilize a deer, causing them to drop in their tracks.