What causes a faster, more humane kill?

[johnf]

That makes sense to me. That would explain why a deer might drop on the spot and then get up a minute later. Most deer that I've shot have ran 20-45 yards and dropped. If they received a "stinger" from what your talking about they would be dead by the time they got over it. So, I guess by default, they wouldn't ever get over it, but wouldn't really have been killed on impact like one my think.

[OJR]

I've shot a lot of deer and elk with my 270 and never had a problem with it at all! The furthest any one of them went was about 35 yards! Most of them went straight down!

I have also shot animals with the 308 and the 30-06 and had the same results!

[elkoholic]

It comes down to bullet placement and bullet construction. In theory, a fast traveling bullet that expands rapidly and stops just under the skin on the off side will kill faster than a slower traveling bullet that exits the off side expending most of it's energy in the ground or tree behind the critter you shot. That being said, there are no guarantees in the real world and if solid bone is hit or the shot is at a steep angle you surely want a larger bullet with slower expansion. My personal favorite for the past 25 years has been a .300 Weatherby Mag. on both deer and elk. Overkill? Maybe, but shooting 180 grain Nosler partitions it will reach out and have the punch to get the job done at ranges well beyond my ability and I haven't "overkilled" anything yet.

[TexasDeerHunter]

How bout "Knock Down Power" , there is no such thing when it comes to hunting large animals. An impact from any bullet will not knock down deer sized game. Smaller animals, maybe. I saw this explained very well in a class years ago. A guy who invented a type of body armor demonstrated on himself. He stood on one leg with his body armor on and placed a phone book as a cushion between him and the vest to keep from brusing himself. His buddy shot him in the chest at 25yds with a .308 and again with a .44 mag. He never lost balance . The theory is that for a bullet to exert enough energy to knock down a 200 pound animal then it would knock down the 200 pound guy shooting the gun. The reason an animal falls , flips, tumbles , rolls, collapses is due to a direct shock to the central nervous system. I think a well placed bullet is the best way to drop animals. I have seen big animals drop from a .223 and the same size animal run a mile after three hits from a .300 mag. I would suggest the high shoulder shot to drop a deer or elk in their tracks, it shocks the nervous system and causes the deer to drop and become immobilized. Anyway, thats my two cents.

[johnf]

I would suggest the high shoulder shot to drop a deer or elk in their tracks, it shocks the nervous system and causes the deer to drop and become immobilized. Anyway, thats my two cents.

Unless of course you miss the spine. Then you have a very high lung shot with no blood trail and you search for the deer for 4 days never recovering it. 4 months later you'll still be having dreams about that big 10 that you never saw again and kicking yourself in the butt for taking advice on a shot that your not 100% sure on when a low double lung shot would have been easier, and if it didn't drop in it's tracks you would have had an easy trail to follow and your friends wouldn't still be giving you grief about missing a deer when you know you hit it.

Or at least I've heard that somewhere:cool:

[TexasDeerHunter]

Unless of course you miss the spine. Then you have a very high lung shot with no blood trail and you search for the deer for 4 days never recovering it. 4 months later you'll still be having dreams about that big 10 that you never saw again and kicking yourself in the butt for taking advice on a shot that your not 100% sure on when a low double lung shot would have been easier, and if it didn't drop in it's tracks you would have had an easy trail to follow and your friends wouldn't still be giving you grief about missing a deer when you know you hit it.

Or at least I've heard that somewhere:cool:

The high shoulder shot does not have to break the spine, there are alot of nerve endings in this area and the shock delivered by the bullets impact will cause the nervous system to fail and drop the animal. Look at a video called "Beyond Belief" by John Burns. He has mastered the art of long range shooting and one shot drops. This is the only shot he takes and drops elk out past 700 yards. It is a great video. I know the feeling oh so well when you have nightmares about a big ol buck that you wounded and he got away. I made a bad shot on a deer a few years ago in Kansas, a brisket shot that dropped him. I was busy celebrating and high fiving my buddy when the big boy gets up and runs off . I actually think the would was non fatal.

[FSU_Seminole]

The high shoulder shot does not have to break the spine, there are alot of nerve endings in this area and the shock delivered by the bullets impact will cause the nervous system to fail and drop the animal. Look at a video called "Beyond Belief" by John Burns. He has mastered the art of long range shooting and one shot drops. This is the only shot he takes and drops elk out past 700 yards. It is a great video. I know the feeling oh so well when you have nightmares about a big ol buck that you wounded and he got away. I made a bad shot on a deer a few years ago in Kansas, a brisket shot that dropped him. I was busy celebrating and high fiving my buddy when the big boy gets up and runs off . I actually think the would was non fatal.

Yes the high shoulder shot does it every single time. I learned this by accident of flinching when I was younger in my early 20s. I'd flinch a little right before I'd pull the trigger because I wasn't controlling my breathing. This happend one afternoon & I shot a big doe high in the shoulder & she dropped. Every deer I've ever shot high in the shoulder has dropped like a sack of potatos. When I shoot them behind the shoulder they run off, no matter what calibur 06, .270 7mm. The shock to the nervous system is what makes them drop so quickly.

[johnf]

Yes the high shoulder shot does it every single time. I learned this by accident of flinching when I was younger in my early 20s. I'd flinch a little right before I'd pull the trigger because I wasn't controlling my breathing. This happend one afternoon & I shot a big doe high in the shoulder & she dropped. Every deer I've ever shot high in the shoulder has dropped like a sack of potatos. When I shoot them behind the shoulder they run off, no matter what calibur 06, .270 7mm. The shock to the nervous system is what makes them drop so quickly.

It don't happen every time. I've been there and lost a deer. I would much rather have the low double lung/heart shot.

[wtnhunt]

Some of this topic has been pretty interesting. No such thing as knock down power kind of has me a bit curious though. When a bullet carrying over 1500 ft lbs of energy or more hits something solid, something is going to give. If it hits solid, hard heavy bone, what it hits(deer, coyote, elk, whatever) will get pushed, no question in my mind about it. A heavier animal will have more resistance, but there still will be a transfer of energy and a push.

[iron buck]

There is not as much "push" as you might think. M.E. is a vastly overrated number. I read once where a guy stood behind a thick plate of steel...thick enough that a 500 grain 458 win mag solid would not go through it......and let someone shoot it (yes there are some nuts in this world!!) Anyway, not only did he live, but he hardly budged. Point being, you will not Bowl any animal over with FPE. If you want to kill something, a bullet that will not blow up placed through the heart/lung reagion will kill anything alive as long as it penetrates enough. Or hit the spine, brain area & have a bang/flop.

On lighter animals, say deer size. I do thing that velocity & shock come into play. But get up to elk & bigger, you had better place your shots correctly.

[wtnhunt]

There is not as much "push" as you might think. M.E. is a vastly overrated number. I read once where a guy stood behind a thick plate of steel...thick enough that a 500 grain 458 win mag solid would not go through it......and let someone shoot it (yes there are some nuts in this world!!) Anyway, not only did he live, but he hardly budged. Point being, you will not Bowl any animal over with FPE. If you want to kill something, a bullet that will not blow up placed through the heart/lung reagion will kill anything alive as long as it penetrates enough. Or hit the spine, brain area & have a bang/flop.

On lighter animals, say deer size. I do thing that velocity & shock come into play. But get up to elk & bigger, you had better place your shots correctly.

Not disagreeing with you, but out of curiosity how much does such a steel plate weigh? Seems like the plate heay enough to safely shoot a round like that at would be a buffer of sorts and would absorb some of the energy. Wish I knew more about physics.

Have seen first hand what a 150 grain bullet from a .270 can do to a 50 lb animal when it hits bone solid in the shoulder and does not exit, and yes it can not only push, but throw an animal. If it was carrying enough energy to throw a 50 lb animal 3 feet would seem to me that a higher energy round could potentially "knock down" deer sized game, at least knock them off balance enough to cause them to fall. But still I agree that it is best to place your shots well and be comfortable with the shots you take. You do not have to be a physicist to know that a good well placed shot to the heart and lungs will result in a dead deer.

[johnf]

Not disagreeing with you, but out of curiosity how much does such a steel plate weigh? Seems like the plate heay enough to safely shoot a round like that at would be a buffer of sorts and would absorb some of the energy. Wish I knew more about physics.

Whatever energy was transferred into the plate would then be transferred directly into you with no lost energy. Therefore you would indirectly absorb all the energy from the bullet. The only factor would be that you would weigh more because your mass would be increased by the weight of the plate. It would be like adding weight to a gun to lower the recoil, just on the other end of the shot.

This was done on Mythbusters a few months back. They shot a dummy with a 12 ga. slug and it barely moved.

[Randy]

Whatever energy was transferred into the plate would then be transferred directly into you with no lost energy. Therefore you would indirectly absorb all the energy from the bullet. The only factor would be that you would weigh more because your mass would be increased by the weight of the plate. It would be like adding weight to a gun to lower the recoil, just on the other end of the shot.

This was done on Mythbusters a few months back. They shot a dummy with a 12 ga. slug and it barely moved.

Huh,.....interesting.

What I'm getting out of this thread so far is, it really doesn't matter how big or small of a gun you use. It's a matter of shot placement and bullet construction. Am I correct? A bigger gun won't necessarily put them on their butt any faster than a smaller one with the same shot placement......

[wtnhunt]

Here is some pretty good information even I can understand Randy http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Physics_of_firearms.

Couple more that also relate to this topic http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stopping_power and http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Terminal_ballistics

[johnf]

I don't think there is a magic bullet or caliber that will do it every time, but there are limit at both ends of the spectrum. A small caliber gun like 223,22-250 simply won't do enough damage to take a deer sized animal down if the bullet selection and shot placement aren't right. If a gun is not controllable by the person shooting it then you may have bad shot placement and loose a deer with even the biggest calibers. With smaller calibers, I would guess 243 down, the bullet design would probably be more important. They have less energy and if a bullet doesn't expand at all the wound channel may not be big enough to dispatch it in time and you may not get a blood trail. With an explosive bullet the bullet may fragment on impact and simply not do any damage in the body cavity, then you have an animal that has a bad wound and could die a slow and painful death.

With larger magnum guns the only real problem I see is "pilot error". The inability to control the weapon for whatever reason can put a lot of hurt on an animal that could leave them going a long way without dying fast enough to find them. I've had guys tell me they will shoot at the ham and just trail the deer. I just don't see that as an ethical shot.

Given the right circumstances I wouldn't hesitate to shoot out to 300 yards with my 243, but I try make my shots as short as possible.

I think it all boils down to using the right bullet for the situation and knowing your own and your guns limitations.

[johnf]

A bigger gun won't necessarily put them on their butt any faster than a smaller one with the same shot placement......

I think that depends on the shot placement. I shot a buck 2 years ago coming straight at me. I was using a 117gr. bullet out of a 25-06 and he dropped in his tracks. I don't think I would have tried that shot with my 243 and I know I wouldn't with my 223. A good bullet going into the heart lung on a broadside shot I would think would take a deer down rather quickly using any gun that could muster more than 800lbs of energy.

[Guest ckcranch]

"Killing Power"

Here is a great article on "Killing Power" or "Knock Power". It is kind of long, but you can kind of skim though it and still get a good idea of what he is saying. There are a lot of articles in his website with good info.

http://www.chuckhawks.com/rifle_killing_power.htm

[elkoholic]

The thought that a bullet leaving the muzzle with 2 tons of energy (my Weatherby .300 Mag.) imparts the same amount of energy upon the shooter is absurd. Now if the cartridge fired but the bullet did not move and the weapon did not blow up the shooter would be in a world of hurt. I have personally shot three deer that were flipped over, end to end, when hit. Two of them with the Weatherby .300 Mag., one of which was bedded down, and one with a 12 gauge slug. None of the bullets exited, although the .300 mag bullets were lodged just under the skin in the deers' butts. As for the high shoulder shot, much like the neck shot, it may drop'em in their tracks but they may get up and run, and never be recovered. The high shoulder shot is also not always a killing shot and may require a follow-up shot. Bullet placement (I prefer heart/lung), bullet construction, and a caliber that will penetrate enough to get the job done on steep quartering shots are what you need. There are a lot of choices out there, but there is one thing I am very sure of, you can not overkill anything, but you can destroy a lot of good, edible meat in the process.

[Strut10]

As for the high shoulder shot, much like the neck shot, it may drop'em in their tracks but they may get up and run, and never be recovered. The high shoulder shot is also not always a killing shot and may require a follow-up shot.

High shoulder shots are risky IMHO. There's a chance of hitting what a lot of bowhunters refer to as the "empty spot".............that area above the lungs but under the spine. The double lung, behind-the-shoulder shot offers the biggest target on most any game animal and will be your highest percentage shot. So what if the animal runs 50 or 100 yards?? It'll be pouring a blood trail Stevie Wonder could follow and it may just run toward the truck.

Bullet placement (I prefer heart/lung), bullet construction, and a caliber that will penetrate enough to get the job done on steep quartering shots are what you need. There are a lot of choices out there, but there is one thing I am very sure of, you can not overkill anything, but you can destroy a lot of good, edible meat in the process.

Well said. I've yet to shoot a critter "too dead". although I have, on occasion, seen them shot "not dead enough". Meat damage is a function of matching bullet type and shot placement to the critter you're shooting at. A well placed 500 gr. .458 caliber bullet at 7000 ft/lbs will most definitely destroy less meat than a 100 gr. 6mm bullet at 1500 ft/lbs placed poorly.

[woodshed]

I lost a buck this year to a high shoulder shot. I had frothy blood where I must have clipped a lung. Some bone fragments but no deer. I trailed him for 350 yards for 10 hours on a very thin blood trail. It stopped and I never found him.

The only thing I can come up with, is that I heard a shot 15 minutes after mine. It sounded far enough away that I didn't worry that it was at my deer.

He ran that direction but that many hours later, I never found anything. I can only assume some guy shot the deer any probobaly wondered where the other hole came from. UGHHH!

[johnf]

Simplest answer-Taking a good shot in the vitals with the legal caliber of your choice with a bullet designed for the job at hand.

[TexasDeerHunter]

The thought that a bullet leaving the muzzle with 2 tons of energy (my Weatherby .300 Mag.) imparts the same amount of energy upon the shooter is absurd. Now if the cartridge fired but the bullet did not move and the weapon did not blow up the shooter would be in a world of hurt. I have personally shot three deer that were flipped over, end to end, when hit. Two of them with the Weatherby .300 Mag., one of which was bedded down, and one with a 12 gauge slug. None of the bullets exited, although the .300 mag bullets were lodged just under the skin in the deers' butts. As for the high shoulder shot, much like the neck shot, it may drop'em in their tracks but they may get up and run, and never be recovered. The high shoulder shot is also not always a killing shot and may require a follow-up shot. Bullet placement (I prefer heart/lung), bullet construction, and a caliber that will penetrate enough to get the job done on steep quartering shots are what you need. There are a lot of choices out there, but there is one thing I am very sure of, you can not overkill anything, but you can destroy a lot of good, edible meat in the process.

Those animals that flipped did not do so because of bullet impact, it is the shock to the nervous system that causes that. I have seen this demonstrated first hand , also several gun writers with far more experience than you and I have proven and written about the same thing. Heck, even Myth Busters proved it. A modern big game rifle of any caliber will not flip or knoch over deer sized game due to the impact of the bullet. Despite what you may beleive, this has been proven by ballistic experts. I will say that the more energy you deliver to the target the greater chance of nervous system shock that can and will make an animal jump, flip, tumble, hop , skip and etc....

[Strut10]

A modern big game rifle of any caliber will not flip or knoch over deer sized game due to the impact of the bullet.

Tis true.

It's one of them things that make ya go "hmmm........." It would seem that a bullet carrying 2 or 3 tons of energy (and especially on a non-exiting shot) should knock a 150 lb. animal for a flip. But it won't...........and that's the truth.

[elkoholic]

I firmly disagree on this one. Myth Busters aside (I have watched several of their shows where the results were sketchy), a deer bedded down, sleeping (buck's eyes were closed, due too a rough night of rutting I suppose) shot in the shoulder and flipped length wise would not have ended up in the position it did had the legs extended violently due to a shock to the nervous system. Although the eyes may have been deceived, and with no tape to replay in slow motion, I am still sure about what I saw. I have seen two other deer shot by hunting partners that were literally knocked over, as they did not drop straight down and they were not kicking after the shot. As for the expert gun writers, I have experienced things first hand that so called experts, with all their "knowledge", would contradict. Forty plus years of hunting and crawling around in the woods making observations holds more weight in my mind. Again, I will say that you can not overkill and any properly constructed bullet traveling at a sufficient velocity will get it done.

[wtnhunt]

I am with Dave on this one, just because mythbusters proves or is unable to prove something does not mean it is a fact.

One time shot a large yote with a .270, the 150 grain core lokt bullet did not exit. Granted it was a probably 55 lb animal and not a 175 lb deer, but the yote was thrown off its feet about 3 feet from where it was hit, and a .270 does not have quite the energy on impact of a .300 win. It was dead where it lay, the shot was right behind the shoulder, hit bone, no shock to the nervous system.

I am not buying into taking what mythbusters says as being factual just because their experiment says so.