muggs Posted April 8, 2008 Report Share Posted April 8, 2008 Joe Borowski stinks. He's gritty and that type of personality seems to jive in Ctown, but grit is about all he has. Tribe was down 2-1 in the 9th, they worked over K-Rod to take a 4-2 lead...in comes JoBo, quickly loads the bases and then gives up a slammy to Torii "I Spell My Name With Two 'I's' and Even Lame Tori Spelling Doesn't Do Something That Girly" Hunter. I realize the Dolan family doesn't have enough money to provide the Indians with top notch MLB talent...but you figure with the David Delucchi/Jason Michael's discount they're working out in LF they'd have enough cash to bring somebody else in. Hopefully they give their prospect Adam Miller a shot at the closer role. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MCH Posted April 8, 2008 Report Share Posted April 8, 2008 Saw him on our league. Had like a 108.00 ERA after that game. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
buckbuster11 Posted April 8, 2008 Report Share Posted April 8, 2008 Closer is the most overrated role in basball. Guys are blowing saves all over the league. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tominator Posted April 8, 2008 Report Share Posted April 8, 2008 I fell asleep watching that one. Kind of a boring game actually. Tribe is rarely out of a game, their youngsters are getting to the point of getting pretty savvy, they kind of remind me of the mid 90's teams. But we had a better closer back then. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
muggs Posted April 8, 2008 Author Report Share Posted April 8, 2008 Closer is the most overrated role in basball. Guys are blowing saves all over the league. You really don't know what you're talking about. I'll agree to a point that some teams take it way too far. But you at least need a guy who has good velocity, keeps the ball on the ground, and can throw strikes. Borowski has terrible stuff, walks too many guys, and gives up the gofer ball way, way, way too much for a closer. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michiganbowhunter_SQ2 Posted April 8, 2008 Report Share Posted April 8, 2008 Trade you for Jason Grilli How that guy still has a job is beyond me. you can almost guarantee at least one or 2 runs given up when he comes in. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
craig mack Posted April 8, 2008 Report Share Posted April 8, 2008 Trade you for Jason Grilli How that guy still has a job is beyond me. you can almost guarantee at least one or 2 runs given up when he comes in. Him and Matt Millen need to just go away. I dont know how Grilli is even in the majors. I dont care if he is a local, the guy is a BUM!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rhine16 Posted April 8, 2008 Report Share Posted April 8, 2008 I'll agree to a point that some teams take it way too far. But you at least need a guy who has good velocity, keeps the ball on the ground, and can throw strikes. . Isnt that what you need in a setup man also??? Or someone working the 7th? Closer role is way overrated. About the only difference a closer usually has from a setup man is (for lack of a better word) grit. Think of Eckersley, Gagne, Rocker(and yes, i considered him good), Wholers, Wagner, Smoltz, Hoffman, and I'm sure i'm leaving some good ones out. They all came in with an air about them. They knew/know they'd get the job done. That is the only difference i see between a setup man and a closer. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
buckbuster11 Posted April 8, 2008 Report Share Posted April 8, 2008 You really don't know what you're talking about. I'll agree to a point that some teams take it way too far. But you at least need a guy who has good velocity, keeps the ball on the ground, and can throw strikes. Borowski has terrible stuff, walks too many guys, and gives up the gofer ball way, way, way too much for a closer. I know what I'm talking about. I know enough to know when you have a guy in the 8th inning come in and blow through 3 hitters you should probably leave him in. But no, we have to put in the "Closer" so he can get his save. And then he'll come in and can't throw a strike to save his life. Ask Seattle. The other night Felix Hernandez is mowing through guys for 8 innings. He gives up 3 hits, no runs and has 7 or 8 K's.He's winning 2-0. They bring in some DB closer in the 9th and what do you know....they lose 3-2. I can give you a million examples of guys pitching great that get yanked for some "closer" just to get him a save and he ends of blowing it. My philosophy......the more guys you bring out of the bullpen the more risk you run of getting a guy that just doesn't have it on a particular night. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rhine16 Posted April 8, 2008 Report Share Posted April 8, 2008 I can give you a million examples of guys pitching great that get yanked for some "closer" just to get him a save and he ends of blowing it. My philosophy......the more guys you bring out of the bullpen the more risk you run of getting a guy that just doesn't have it on a particular night. My thoughts exactly. Why not have 2-3 guys that you will/can run out to throw the 8th and 9th??? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
muggs Posted April 8, 2008 Author Report Share Posted April 8, 2008 It's liking watching a hamster in one of those wheels when you guys come at me. Well you two DB's, you can say you need a good pitcher who can get guys out at every spot in your rotation and pen, not just only in your setup role or as your 7th inning guy. Obviously, if you have three dominant guys, that's a plus, but when you have one, he's your closer. Sometimes you guys really scare me when you try to think and rationalize things. What I'm saying, is if you have a guy that can close out a game with consistency...it's a very, very valuable piece of a good team. I'm also saying that when you have a guy like Borowski who's fastball rarely hits 90 mph on the gun, who struggles with control, and more often than not allows one or two baserunners on base when he comes in to close...it's not a good thing. Case-in-point. If you have a guy who throws 95 mph plus, has a hard biting sinker, and throws strikes and is hands down the most dominant pitcher in your bullpen...are you going to use him as a 7th inning guy, or your closer? What did I tell you about thinking John? It only gets you into trouble. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
buckbuster11 Posted April 8, 2008 Report Share Posted April 8, 2008 Well you are pretty much agreeing with me. If you've got a guy who is all jacked up on roids and can close 70 games in a row like Gagne did for the Dodgers then/than by all means use him as a closer. How many of those guys are in MLB right now? 2 or 3? Why in the world is Borowski a closer? Because every team feels the need to have a guy called a closer. Which is ridiculous. In Clevelands case and in alot of other teams case, they should bring guys in based on performance and individual game situations. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
muggs Posted April 8, 2008 Author Report Share Posted April 8, 2008 Well you are pretty much agreeing with me. If you've got a guy who is all jacked up on roids and can close 70 games in a row like Gagne did for the Dodgers then/than by all means use him as a closer. How many of those guys are in MLB right now? 2 or 3? Why in the world is Borowski a closer? Because every team feels the need to have a guy called a closer. Which is ridiculous. In Clevelands case and in alot of other teams case, they should bring guys in based on performance and individual game situations. Borowski has the experience and the mental toughness, just doesn't have the physical side of things. Then there are guys who have the stuff and the arm, but don't have the mental game to be a closer (see Fausto Carmona in '06). So, when you find a guy with both...he's your closer, and he's not "overrated." But I see where you're going with this (outside of the obvious attempt to rile Kev up with the Gagne roids reference- which is 100% accurate btw) but I don't think you can use several guys to fill that role. I think you need to designate one guy that's going to come into those types of pressure filled situations. That said, I hate seeing a guy blow through 3 batters for a 1-2-3 8th innning and then see him get pulled for the weak armed "closer." If a guy is dealing, let him come back out for the 9th too...unless you have a dominate guy you can count on. Long story short, a good closer is most definitely not "overrated.";) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MCH Posted April 8, 2008 Report Share Posted April 8, 2008 Hate to say, but both sides have valid points. That being said, I'm siding with Muggsy on this one. Being a closer requires a different sort of "mentality" than your average reliever. Sometimes this guy is like a JoBo and has relatively average stuff, but 100% of the mental part. Other guys like Saito, has above average stuff, yet not the full mentality. The Red Sox tried a closer by committee a year or so ago and it didn't work too well. BTW--if the closer role was overrated or unnecessary, then you'd see a lot of MLB teams doing away with it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
muggs Posted April 8, 2008 Author Report Share Posted April 8, 2008 BTW--if the closer role was overrated or unnecessary, then you'd see a lot of MLB teams doing away with it. Exactly. Not to mention the amount of $$ MLB clubs invest in closers, and how often you see teams dealing for experienced, effective closers. You ask Joe Torre who is most valuable player was during his time with the Yankees, I have a feeling he'd say Rivera, especialy considering that guy's impact during the post season. Plus, you look at the Brew Crew- I think they're really going to hit a snag with Gagne closing for them instead of Cordero. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rhine16 Posted April 8, 2008 Report Share Posted April 8, 2008 BTW--if the closer role was overrated or unnecessary, then you'd see a lot of MLB teams doing away with it. Agreed to a point, but disagree strongly (If that's possible ) I think a bunch of people get caught up in the save stat. Personally, I think it is stupid. Starter throws seven, leaves with one run lead. Guy comes in 8th and 3 up 3 down. Closer comes in 9th, 3 up 3 down. Why does the closer get the stat and not the set up guy :confused: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rhine16 Posted April 8, 2008 Report Share Posted April 8, 2008 You ask Joe Torre who is most valuable player was during his time with the Yankees, I have a feeling he'd say Rivera, especialy considering that guy's impact during the post season. *Ahem* Jeter *Ahem* :eek::eek: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
muggs Posted April 8, 2008 Author Report Share Posted April 8, 2008 *Ahem* Jeter *Ahem* :eek::eek: He's valuable, but Rivera is his guy...I think he's even said something to the effect before. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rhine16 Posted April 8, 2008 Report Share Posted April 8, 2008 He's valuable, but Rivera is his guy...I think he's even said something to the effect before. Jeter is Mr October. Remember the play he made against Oakland in 04 or 05? That is just inhuman Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MCH Posted April 8, 2008 Report Share Posted April 8, 2008 Agreed to a point, but disagree strongly (If that's possible ) I think a bunch of people get caught up in the save stat. Personally, I think it is stupid. Starter throws seven, leaves with one run lead. Guy comes in 8th and 3 up 3 down. Closer comes in 9th, 3 up 3 down. Why does the closer get the stat and not the set up guy :confused: They rate non-closer relievers, rhine. They call them "holds". We don't hear about them much because they're relatively useless for fantasy purposes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
muggs Posted April 8, 2008 Author Report Share Posted April 8, 2008 Jeter is Mr October. Remember the play he made against Oakland in 04 or 05? That is just inhuman Yeah, he's a gamer. But look up Rivera's post season numbers. He was huge every year they won the WS too. Jeter is huge as well, but like I said, Rivera has always been the one underlying staple of that team. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rhine16 Posted April 8, 2008 Report Share Posted April 8, 2008 They rate non-closer relievers, rhine. They call them "holds". We don't hear about them much because they're relatively useless for fantasy purposes. I knew you were going to bring up holds I know it is a stat for it. Just saying it is not brought to the attention of anyone. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rhine16 Posted April 8, 2008 Report Share Posted April 8, 2008 Yeah, he's a gamer. But look up Rivera's post season numbers. He was huge every year they won the WS too. Jeter is huge as well, but like I said, Rivera has always been the one underlying staple of that team. I'm joking muggsy I believe that they've both been called Mr October at one point or another. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MCH Posted April 8, 2008 Report Share Posted April 8, 2008 I'm joking muggsy I believe that they've both been called Mr October at one point or another. Mr. October is Reggie Jackson. Derek Jeter was dubbed Mr. November, due to the extended date of that year's series. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rhine16 Posted April 8, 2008 Report Share Posted April 8, 2008 Mr. October is Reggie Jackson. Derek Jeter was dubbed Mr. November, due to the extended date of that year's series. My rights to post in the sports room have now been removed Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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