Dawg Posted April 30, 2008 Report Share Posted April 30, 2008 This may belong in the political room.............. What's the deal with the US justice system? I was just listening to the radio and a fella who broke into a house and stole a few things got 8 years in the pin. Then I heard that a woman who was pulled over for speeding, was found to be under the influence of alcohol with a child in the car only got 2 years probation. Weird. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
terry264 Posted April 30, 2008 Report Share Posted April 30, 2008 That is the difference between a court appointed lawyer and one you pay for,,,, Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeramie Posted April 30, 2008 Report Share Posted April 30, 2008 Oh yeah. I hear stuff like that on the radio a lot. Fairly recently a guy broke into several homes and stole a bunch of stuff. He stashed it at a buddies. The thief got nothing.... His buddy that stored the stuff got 8-years. Both deserved jail time but something doesnt quite add up here. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hoosierbuck Posted May 1, 2008 Report Share Posted May 1, 2008 It's the laws, partly. If you don't like them, talk to your legislators. In Indiana, by state statute residential burglary is a B Felony, 2-8 years. OWI with child under 18 in the car is a D Felony, 6 mo. to 3 years. Within that range you have to look at priors, and other aggravating and mitigating circumstances that help you determine what actual punishment fits this defendant and this crime. Say perhaps the burglar was armed or the residence was occupied and the people were scared to death, and he has done this before and been to prison...boom-8 years prison. He is a hard core career criminal, and the only thing you can do is take him out of circulation for as long as possible. Now, maybe the woman was driving drunk, just over the legal limit. She got stopped because she had a taillight burnt out (are yours working right now, are you sure?) and she was 5 over the limit, in town. Maybe she has never been arrested or even ticketed before. She is a single mother with no family in the area, and she was over at her girlfriend's house and had 3-4 glasses of wine, but did not eat. She weighs maybe a buck-o-five soaking wet so it put her over the limit. What are you going to do, put her in the penitentiary and put the child in foster care? Do you know how much that will cost the state? Or would a fraction of those dollars be better spent putting her through rehab and parenting skills classes and monitoring her on probation for two whole years when she knows she has to toe the mark and change her ways or she loses her kid? Is that so utterly preposterous? Under those circumstances which we, and likely you don't know, I would say those sentences are entirely appropriate. Never trust the newspaper, etc. to get it right, either. Think on it and get more facts before you assume the system totally sucks. Sometimes errors are made, but by and large, it's not too shabby. HB PS- and the thief/burglar who got away with it while the storage unit boy got slammed. Who says he is the thief/burglar? The guy who got caught with the stuff? I believe THAT guy. (NOT!) The fact is the case against mope B is rock solid, and there might not be a darn thing more solid than mope B's word on the alleged mope A. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stevebeilgard Posted May 1, 2008 Report Share Posted May 1, 2008 i think the judges have got a lot to do with these injustices. they just make up their own rules. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
buckee Posted May 1, 2008 Report Share Posted May 1, 2008 It used to be called Justice mixed with mercy, but no-a-days it's more like stupid, mixed with stupid. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hoosierbuck Posted May 1, 2008 Report Share Posted May 1, 2008 Guess I am the minority on this one, hmmm. HB Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bowtech_archer07 Posted May 1, 2008 Report Share Posted May 1, 2008 HB, I agree with you, there are mitigating and aggravating circumstances, but what Terry said is also true. If you can hire a lawyer, you are much more likely to get a more lenient sentence.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hoosierbuck Posted May 1, 2008 Report Share Posted May 1, 2008 Maybe...in the county I work for, the public defenders are just about all the members of the defense bar who have paid and pd clients at the same time, and do the same job for both of them. I know that a lot of jurisdictions they have the new guys as pd's and when they get good, they quit that and go private. Don't know what to say about that. By and large, people only know of the system what the news tells them, and REALLY, the news boogers it up awful bad a lot of the time. Injustice sells newspapers, so they shine it up and put it out there, whether it is real or not. True story there. HB Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wtnhunt Posted May 1, 2008 Report Share Posted May 1, 2008 It's the laws, partly. If you don't like them, talk to your legislators. In Indiana, by state statute residential burglary is a B Felony, 2-8 years. OWI with child under 18 in the car is a D Felony, 6 mo. to 3 years. Within that range you have to look at priors, and other aggravating and mitigating circumstances that help you determine what actual punishment fits this defendant and this crime. Say perhaps the burglar was armed or the residence was occupied and the people were scared to death, and he has done this before and been to prison...boom-8 years prison. He is a hard core career criminal, and the only thing you can do is take him out of circulation for as long as possible. Now, maybe the woman was driving drunk, just over the legal limit. She got stopped because she had a taillight burnt out (are yours working right now, are you sure?) and she was 5 over the limit, in town. Maybe she has never been arrested or even ticketed before. She is a single mother with no family in the area, and she was over at her girlfriend's house and had 3-4 glasses of wine, but did not eat. She weighs maybe a buck-o-five soaking wet so it put her over the limit. What are you going to do, put her in the penitentiary and put the child in foster care? Do you know how much that will cost the state? Or would a fraction of those dollars be better spent putting her through rehab and parenting skills classes and monitoring her on probation for two whole years when she knows she has to toe the mark and change her ways or she loses her kid? Is that so utterly preposterous? Under those circumstances which we, and likely you don't know, I would say those sentences are entirely appropriate. Never trust the newspaper, etc. to get it right, either. Think on it and get more facts before you assume the system totally sucks. Sometimes errors are made, but by and large, it's not too shabby. HB PS- and the thief/burglar who got away with it while the storage unit boy got slammed. Who says he is the thief/burglar? The guy who got caught with the stuff? I believe THAT guy. (NOT!) The fact is the case against mope B is rock solid, and there might not be a darn thing more solid than mope B's word on the alleged mope A. Guess I am the minority on this one, hmmm. HB Nope, I got to agree with you HB. Makes perfect sense to me. Think lumping all same type crimes within a category without knowing the details is not really just. The circumstances as you describe seem pretty realistic to me and it makes good sense. That is why there is some allowable discretion in sentencing. With all that said though I do believe the justice system has several flaws. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dawg Posted May 1, 2008 Author Report Share Posted May 1, 2008 She got stopped because she had a taillight burnt out (are yours working right now, are you sure?) and she was 5 over the limit, in town. She was pulled over for speeding. Maybe she has never been arrested or even ticketed before. She is a single mother with no family in the area, and she was over at her girlfriend's house and had 3-4 glasses of wine, but did not eat. Dude, we live in the sticks.........almost every body is related here! Is that so utterly preposterous? Sort of. Under those circumstances which we, and likely you don't know, I would say those sentences are entirely appropriate. Negative. Think on it and get more facts before you assume the system totally sucks. Most of it does. My problem here is she had a CHILD in the car with her. Someone who was under the sole responsibility of this woman, maybe she was just over the limit......but she was still under the influence. She could have wrecked and the child could have died........for no reason. I have no tolerence when it comes to protecting children. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wtnhunt Posted May 1, 2008 Report Share Posted May 1, 2008 My problem here is she had a CHILD in the car with her. Someone who was under the sole responsibility of this woman, maybe she was just over the limit......but she was still under the influence. She could have wrecked and the child could have died........for no reason. I have no tolerence when it comes to protecting children. ANYBODY driving under the influence has the potential to hurt innocent people including children. Guess in this case the judge must have had reason for his punishment. People get dui's all over this country everyday, don't know the laws everywhere, but many never serve any jail time other than when they get pulled over/arrested. Think too as mentioned the severity of "under the influence" can go from barely over to extremely intoxicated, which there is a huge difference. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hoosierbuck Posted May 1, 2008 Report Share Posted May 1, 2008 That part about having a child in the car is why a first time OWI is a FELONY as opposed to a misdemeanor with a max of 1 year, which is were it would be without the child in the car. I noted that she was speeding by 5 over in my scenario, btw. If you already have your mind made up and don't want to be confused with the facts and realities as they often appear, then don't worry about replying. I am not talking out of some theoretical pie-hole, I know whereof I speak. I have been trying decide where justice lies in the middle of this mess for over a decade. The simple fact is that even the people who do these stupid, wrong, and illegal things have families and dependents, and rights, so you can't just hammer everyone with the max on the crimes you feel are bad (OWI) and not others (burglars). I do understand about kids, I have 3 and I love them dearly. I love the kids I have never met, but read about in police reports, too. My particular hard-line issue is child molesters. I have to work within the framework of the laws and constitutions, but I really think they should be shot. That's just me. HB Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dawg Posted May 1, 2008 Author Report Share Posted May 1, 2008 If you already have your mind made up and don't want to be confused with the facts and realities as they often appear, then don't worry about replying. Confused?? Dude, what facts and realities are you talking about? Just because you feel the sentencing is right and I don't, doesn't mean I'm the one who is confused. I am not talking out of some theoretical pie-hole, I know whereof I speak. Matter of opinion. Calm down, just joshin' ya. I have been trying decide where justice lies in the middle of this mess for over a decade. The simple fact is that even the people who do these stupid, wrong, and illegal things have families and dependents, and rights, so you can't just hammer everyone with the max on the crimes you feel are bad (OWI) and not others (burglars). Why not? Crime is crime in my eyes, they should be the one's who think about their dependants and families before they make a stupid decision. I do understand about kids, I have 3 and I love them dearly. I love the kids I have never met, but read about in police reports, too. My particular hard-line issue is child molesters. I have to work within the framework of the laws and constitutions, but I really think they should be shot. That's just me. Wow, something we can agree on! HB Opinions are like excuses..........everybody has one at some point in time. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dubie Posted May 1, 2008 Report Share Posted May 1, 2008 Well, if crimes are crimes and everybody should have the book thrown at them, there wouldn't be much of a country left. Have you ever been pulled over for speeding? MAybe get just a warning? Or did they throw the book at you, give you the max fine/penalty for speeding, dangerous driving, participating in an acceleration contest (racing. There's almost always someone else you just passed). Or does the county come by every week, fine you $200 and charge you $20/hr to cut your lawn because noxious weeds keep growing? Don't tell me you've never had at least one dandilion in your lawn.... Or how about the laws the justice system breaks? I know its still on the books alot of places up here that criminals are to be given a horse, one week of food, and a pistol with ammunition so they can ride out of town when released from jail. Some people should have the book thrown at them, especialy those that should know better (like the NRO caught poaching in another thread), or those that have had the chance to learn from thier mistake already. Some people should be cut a little slack now and then. Who realy knows when they blow over on a breathalizer test? Anybody actualy test this on themselves? You can register as impaired before being visibly impaired in any way. You've never stopped in for a beer or two after work? With some of the low numbers they come up with to determine impaired, you could easily get a DUI for that. Some common sense still has to be used to determin the severity of the actual infraction. Maybe a fine, driving suspension and few weeks AA will scare them straight without destroying an entire family. If everyone had the book thown at them for the most minor of infractions, we'd all be spending all our money on fines and have criminal records that have to be stored in thier own volumes... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dawg Posted May 1, 2008 Author Report Share Posted May 1, 2008 I don't think driving drunk with a child in the car, while speeding, is a minor infraction........regardless of how much she was over the limit. You make a good point with the rest of your post. I just can't seem to understand why folk, molestors, rapists, drunk drivers etc., who put others in danger can get away with the simplist of punishment. Like these nuts who have been in the news lately with molesting, raping and murdering innocent girls, do they get the death penalty (and yes I do FIRMLY believe in the death penalty)? No, they get a slap on the wrist and our tax dollars are spent housing and feeding these morons. JMHO. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wtnhunt Posted May 1, 2008 Report Share Posted May 1, 2008 Well Ken, what do you think about the elderly driving? Think there has been some controversy on the elderly here lately on the rising number of accidents they are involved in. Not to get off topic here, but to be quite honest, look at someone who drinks three beers who is kind of lightweight and had nothing to eat that day. The driver who is possibly legally over the limit, goes out and is involved in an accident someone dieing as a result, the accident probably had nothing to do with an impairment. Should that person be any less accountable than an elderly person who probably is worse off without being impaired going out and plowing through a crowded restaurant, killing several? You say a crime is a crime, both cases innocent people get killed, so vehicular homicide should be the charges for both cases without any questions right? Are the elderly negligent for not being competent enough to know their ability? Really getting down to it, a "crime is a crime" just as mentioned is probably not the best perspective, and I am not in any way condoning any illegal activity, but I cannot agree with your opinion here. My point is there are situations that discern the differences, kind of hard for us to judge on opinions especially with not knowing all the details. That is where decisions should be made within a guidelines. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dubie Posted May 1, 2008 Report Share Posted May 1, 2008 Kind of what I was trying to get at. Laws exist to give us a framework to work within. Sometimes the system abuses things, and true criminals get out on the streets again. But if you tried to throw someone in jail just for being .05, kid or no kid, I think your being a little harsh. Now, if said person was driving reclessly with a kid in the car, drugs or no drugs in thier system, then they should have the book thrown at them... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dawg Posted May 1, 2008 Author Report Share Posted May 1, 2008 I believe that a person should have to retake a drivers education course and a physical when they become a "senior". If they can't drive and do it anyway and then hurt some innocent folk, your darn right they are just as guilty as the person driving drunk. By the way.................who's Ken?? And I'm not asking anyone to agree with me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hoosierbuck Posted May 2, 2008 Report Share Posted May 2, 2008 For every complex problem facing us today, there is a simple answer...and it's wrong. One-size fits all justice is neither justice nor workable. I have seen lots of guys take that stand, and they stick to it right up to the point of one of their family members (son, brother) or buddies is getting spanked, and then all of a sudden it's, "Wait a minute, that's different. He's a real person and a basically good dude, he should get something that fits him." I don't expect you to admit that you are glad there is room for latitude, but when push comes to shove for someone you care about, I think you may be glad there is some discretion built in to the system. HB Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wtnhunt Posted May 2, 2008 Report Share Posted May 2, 2008 By the way.................who's Ken?? And I'm not asking anyone to agree with me. LOL, think I got your user name and real name mixed up with someone elses. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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