Agree or disagree??

[ccwhitey]

  buckee said:

Agree?? - because, "IT IS YOUR RESPONSIBILITY TO PROTECT THAT CHILD AT ALL COSTS!!"

Disagree?? - because, Losing a child because of your own stupidness, would be punishment enough, for most, but sadly, not for all.

I agree. I had a friend that was in the same situation and I know that he still takes it hard.

[dogdoc]

i agree the parents should be help responsible. That is something that can easily be avoided.

[stevebeilgard]

lots of cars now, mine included, tell me when anyone is not wearing a seatbelt. i hate lights on my dash, so all belts are on. always.

[nativetexan]

How about we take the personal responsibility that we have to others route on this one. I wonder how many of you can look around the room, your homes, or even pick up the phone and speak to someone who would be deeply effected by the loss of you. All of these argumentative posts and not one person said point blank: I would wear my seat belt because my child, wife, family, co-workers, etc. need me to take such precautions so I can be there for them when they need me. Especially my wife and kids.

I cannot believe that we have gotten so wound up in politics and are so quick to throw out the "rights violation" card (some bull **** Al Sharpton would do) that we cannot acknowledge one simple truth. If you don't wear your seat belt, or buckle your kids in, the chances of you or them dying are pretty good. So here is where the personal responsibility comes in. Yes, had the mother not buckled her children in intentionally, then she must pay the price both mentally and legally. That's the breaks isn't it? I certainly wouldn't want my children growing up without me because I wanted to prove an irresponsible point about civil rights violations. Even if it were legal to not wear one, I would still wear it, as would everyone else in my car. In fact, it doesn't move until everyone has done so. Your rights, or whatever glorious risks you feel entitled to take, be damned.

[wtnhunt]

  Norm Sauceman said:

Although I feel sorry for her and all, I do not feel sorry enough that she should not be brought up on charges of vehicular homicide and child endangerment and cited for what was her responsibility. Why were those children not in safety belts?

I agree that she is and should be held responsible Norm, however I do not think I could go along with the idea that vehicular homicide is a fitting charge. jmo.

[Guest Finn]

It seems differing opinions are not wanted....so I'll not voice mine.

[Dawg]

  OJR said:

I agree with this! The parents should be held responsible!

Ditto.

[muggs]

  Norm Sauceman said:

So, the expressed freedom of the mother to not make her children wear seat belts led to the death of one child and the near death of another. Her expressed freedom CAUSED the death of a child so now since the child is dead and someone caused it because it was their freedom choice not to restrain her or her children and no one is responsible... Thinking like this is why we HAVE laws in the first place. Folks seem to put in their own definition of freedom and do not care if it infringes on another person or not.

Exactly. It was her choice, and they were her children. It's unfortunate this woman didn't make the proper and responsible choice, but that is life.

People choose to do a lot of things that are irresponsible and bad for their children. They take them to McDonald's and allow them to eat mass amount of sodium and trans fats that are starting them off with poor eating habits and could definitely lead to lives stuck suffering from high blood pressure and high cholesterol rates.

People choose to allow their children to be inactive and hand them a Game Boy during car rides so they're not bothersome.

People ignore their children or don't handle discpline properly during their fundamental stages of development and it leads their kids to have many character flaws and personality disorders.

At the end of the day, it's their choice how they raise and manage their children. In all hope, they do it right, but I'd bet in the majority of most cases all parents fail in some areas. This just happens to be a blantant case which resulted in loss of life. A very sad story.

I'd listen to the agruement that tickets should be handed out for failure to wear a safety belt and she should receive the maximum penalty that law provides. But to charge her with manslaughter or anything more serious than that? Please.

[Ohiobucks]

Very sad situation.

Let me ask you guys and gals this - How many of you wore seatbelts as kids growing up in your parents car? I know we never did, 2 parents and 4 kids in a station wagon, sometimes 2 of us free floating in the back.......

Now, my kids all wear their belts, so do my wife and I. Everytime we get in the vehicle.

If the kids were wearing their belts and still died, do you think vehicular manslaughter charges should still be filed? How about if a child falls from the top of a bunk bed and dies, manslaughter charges for the parent? I don't see this.

I was going to say something about the "make them watch the autopsy" comment, but I'll bite my tongue on this one..... :confused:

[wtnhunt]

  muggs said:

Exactly. It was her choice, and they were her children. It's unfortunate this woman didn't make the proper and responsible choice, but that is life.

People choose to do a lot of things that are irresponsible and bad for their children. They take them to McDonald's and allow them to eat mass amount of sodium and trans fats that are starting them off with poor eating habits and could definitely lead to lives stuck suffering from high blood pressure and high cholesterol rates.

People choose to allow their children to be inactive and hand them a Game Boy during car rides so they're not bothersome.

People ignore their children or don't handle discpline properly during their fundamental stages of development and it leads their kids to have many character flaws and personality disorders.

At the end of the day, it's their choice how they raise and manage their children. In all hope, they do it right, but I'd bet in the majority of most cases all parents fail in some areas. This just happens to be a blantant case which resulted in loss of life. A very sad story.

I'd listen to the agruement that tickets should be handed out for failure to wear a safety belt and she should receive the maximum penalty that law provides. But to charge her with manslaughter or anything more serious than that? Please.

  Ohiobucks said:

Very sad situation.

Let me ask you guys and gals this - How many of you wore seatbelts as kids growing up in your parents car? I know we never did, 2 parents and 4 kids in a station wagon, sometimes 2 of us free floating in the back.......

Now, my kids all wear their belts, so do my wife and I. Everytime we get in the vehicle.

If the kids were wearing their belts and still died, do you think vehicular manslaughter charges should still be filed? How about if a child falls from the top of a bunk bed and dies, manslaughter charges for the parent? I don't see this.

I was going to say something about the "make them watch the autopsy" comment, but I'll bite my tongue on this one..... :confused:

It was not until I had kids and had to lead by example that I ever started wearing a seatbelt myself. No seat belts when I was a kid, I can remember riding in vehicles and even driving vehicles that did not have seat belts not even lap belts before the seat belt laws ever started going into effect. Used to ride down the highway in the beds of open trucks at highway speeds, can even remember driving my own truck and having several passengers riding in the back, fortunately no accidents, and fortunately never anyone hurt. To think looking back if somehow an accident happened I would have been responsible, somehow I may have come up on charges even if it was not intentional and at no direct fault of my own, I just don't know about that.

Think it is probably pretty safe to say most of us have done something at one time or another that was probably pretty stupid and irresponsible, and probably in most cases no one was hurt. The poll I posted in the driving with kids thread, my intentions were to show that most of us do at times take our attention off the road especially with kids in the back seat, possibly putting our own kids as well as other drivers and their kids at risk, stopping immediately is not always an option. Driving my kids back and forth to school every day, I have become used to seeing minivans swerving, occasionally getting off the road, can kind of assume it is for reasons related to the kids in the backseats.

Something as simple as fiddling with a cell phone or looking at a map at the wrong time while driving, putting a dvd into that dvd player for the kids to watch to keep them appeased, or changing a cd, or changing the radio, or reaching over in the passenger seat to grab your sandwhich or fries while in a hurry on your lunch break; any excuses for taking your attention off the road can lead to an increase in potential risks and can lead to an unfortunate accident. Probably happens fairly frequently that someone takes their attention off driving for whatever reason, and it is also unfortunate that probably in some of instances accidents result and probably in some of those accidents there are fatalities, but does that mean that those responsible are always without any question guilty of manslaughter because they knowingly took a risk? What really is the difference or is there, after all irresponsibility is irresponsibility, right?

  Quote

Originally Posted by stevebeilgard

lots of cars now, mine included, tell me when anyone is not wearing a seatbelt. i hate lights on my dash, so all belts are on. always.

Have lights on our dash, and chimes too, but most carseats for young children are aftermarket equipment not built into the vehicles computer system and therefore when a kid takes off their belts from their carseat, no light or chimes go off.

[Mirage]

  RangerClay said:

Make the parents watch the autopsy.

I think this is a very distastefull comment. I think they are suffuring enough dont you? To loose a child is just horrible!! I always buckle up my child, but i remeber growing up nobody used seat belts and if somebiody died because of it, it was very sad but no charges were pressed.

[Hoosierbuck]

I have made this decison before. The charges should be filed, and this is not the same as feeding kids McD's or letting them watch R-rated movies, etc. We are not talking about the risk of warping a mind or making them fat, we are talking about killing your kids, RIGHT NOW. The seatblet laws have all been challenged on Constitiutional grounds and stood up to the scrutiny, in part because of the compelling nature of the harm that can result. You have to balance the privacy interest and intrusion into your life against the harm to be avoided. Your kids' safety wins out over your right to raise them poorly in this limited circustance. PERIOD! Don't give me the BigBrother line. People are stupid, and most of the stupid ones don't have good insurance. Who is going to pay for your life support when you have exercised your right to NOT wear your seatbelt or buckle up your child? ME! Thaks for being such a strong believer in your rights that you are willing to spend my money on keeping your feeble butt alive, I really appreciate the opportunity.

Now, I have stated that the parent should be charged. The level of culpability and remorse can certainly impact the disposition of the case, but the law is there and must be followed. If you don't like the law, there is a process for changing it, use it.

HB

[muggs]

  Hoosierbuck said:

we are talking about killing your kids, RIGHT NOW.

What if they were wearing seatbelts and still did not survive? This happens everyday.

Then who do we prosecute?

Accidents happen. It's an unfortunate reality.

  Quote

If you don't like the law, there is a process for changing it, use it.

There's no law stating a parent who wrecks a car and kills their children can be tried for manslaughter. Absolutely not.

There is however a process you could pursue to direct where your tax dollars go. How many of us are using it?

That's the problem with finger pointing. Those fingers never meet the proper target because everyone is too narrow-minded to see it should be pointing directly at themselves. I'm not saying you personally Hoosier, but those who are always pointing out everyone else's mistakes while overlooking their own.

[Hoosierbuck]

I am not pointing fingers. I am not saying I am perfect, I am not hired because I am perfect. I did not swear an oath to be perfect, I swore to uphold the laws and Constitutions of Indiana and the United States. That's my job, sometimes it does, in fact, involve accusing others of committing crimes, but that is part of the burden I bear. All I said was, if you don't like the laws, lobby to get them changed. You have two choices, abide by the law, or risk the consequnces of getting caught.

If someone dies in an accident, and nobody BROKE ANY LAWS, then it is just a sad accident. If laws were broken, then we have an issue like the one at hand. There are laws stating that if you cause the death of another person due to your reckless conduct, then you can be held to answer for that death. What woulde you characterize this lady's conduct as, if not "engaging in conduct in plain, conscious and unjustifiable disregard for the harm that might result, and the disregard involves a substantial deviation from acceptable standards of conduct." I.C. 35-41-2-2

Theory and debate are nice, but I am answering the question as it was put, in the real world.

HB

[muggs]

  Hoosierbuck said:

You have two choices, abide by the law, or risk the consequnces of getting caught. HB

The consequences of violating the seat belt law don't carry a manslaughter charge if they're not followed.

[Hoosierbuck]

Praytell, what is the harm that the seatbelt law seeks to avoid? HMMMM, death and dismemberment, perhaps...when you disregard a law that TELLS you what the standard of care is, and you break that law resulting in death, then I wopuld expect you to be held criminally liable for that. Fo sho.

HB

[wtnhunt]

Shame is that cases like this probably do go forward in some places where common sense may go out the window and it is possible that when they do that the person who had no intention of causing any harm may actually serve jail time as a result of an irresponsible mistake, in yet there are those out there who intentionally kill or intend to kill others who in many situations serve little or no time at all. I see no justice in putting a mother who lost one child behind bars when she has other children still to care for if what happened was through no intentional act.

Personally I have to agree with Eric here. To the best of my knowledge seatbelt law infractions carry a fine here in Tennessee, they do not carry charges for manslaughter. If there are other charges involved with the accident such as reckless driving, those would carry more serious penalties and might possibly qualify for the manslaughter charges, but a seatbelt violation alone does not.

Do not think anyone here is arguing that the parent is responsible, it is the idea of charging them with manslaughter that seems to be the point of the argument here. Manslaughter just seems too harsh to me and that is an opinion that I am not going to change. I maintain that most of us have done irresponsible or stupid things that have risks at some point in our lives, we just have not been caught or have not had the results of anyone being hurt. In saying that I am in no way condoning this or excusing it, but saying I can maybe be a little understanding as opposed to being quick to be judgemental.

On a bit of a side note, my father was crushed to death when his jeep rolled over on him in West Virginia in in the middle of a foggy night in 1971 when he went off the shoulder of the road in a curve where no guard rail was installed, I was only 2 years old at that time. Have never known for certain whether he was wearing a lap belt or not, but from what family members had told me, had he been thrown clear, he probably would still be here today. One thing for certain, had there been a guard rail in that curve he would not have had that accident, so in a sense then, could it be viewed that the state of West Virginia is responsible?

[muggs]

  Hoosierbuck said:

Praytell, what is the harm that the seatbelt law seeks to avoid? HMMMM, death and dismemberment, perhaps...when you disregard a law that TELLS you what the standard of care is, and you break that law resulting in death, then I wopuld expect you to be held criminally liable for that. Fo sho.

HB

So, if I get pulled over and I'm not wearing a seat belt, do I get charged with attempted vehicular manslaughter?

[MCH]

  Quote

People choose to allow their children to be inactive and hand them a Game Boy during car rides so they're not bothersome.

You can tell you don't have kids, because while that may be a "choice" for short distances, once you reach an hour it becomes mandantory.

[Ethan Givan]

I think that this is an extremely sad accident that could have been prevented, but to press charges for vehicular manslaughter is rediculous. Dont you think the parents of these children are in enough pain and sadness already? There is nothing you could legally do to punish them that would make them regret their choices more than they already do. To try to do that would be uncaring and cruel IMO.

[Hoosierbuck]

  muggs said:

So, if I get pulled over and I'm not wearing a seat belt, do I get charged with attempted vehicular manslaughter?

No, you get a puny fine. Are you not getting it, or are you deliberately changing the premise? We are mainly talking about the kids here. When your kid dies because you did not buckle them in, THEN you get charged with the big crime. Attempt is charged when, acting with the culpability required to commit the underlying offense you take a substantial step toward the commission of the offense. How is that germane here?

"Personally I have to agree with Eric here. To the best of my knowledge seatbelt law infractions carry a fine here in Tennessee, they do not carry charges for manslaughter. If there are other charges involved with the accident such as reckless driving, those would carry more serious penalties and might possibly qualify for the manslaughter charges, but a seatbelt violation alone does not."

Right! It's the death of the kids that occasions the charge, not the lack of the seatbelt. The lack of seatbelt is the evidence of the recklessness of the parent.

HB

[MCH]

  muggs said:

So, if I get pulled over and I'm not wearing a seat belt, do I get charged with attempted vehicular manslaughter?

No. That would be "attempted suicide".

[Hoosierbuck]

Look, I realize that I am being picky here with legal definitions and all that, but if you are going to debate a serious legal topic, there has to be a fundamental understanding of certain notions and terms that just aren't used the same in everyday vernacular. Lots of times people think the system is so ridiculous and this or that is so unreasonable, and many times that opinion is based on misunderstandings or tunnel vision. Example: You are at your dear friend's house and pick up his new semi-automatic pistol. You pull the mag and then start drawing it and messing around, chambering rounds, putting the mag back, etc. You are standing at the foot of the bed and your friend and his girlfriend are laying there watching tv, you fumble the gun and catch it right at bed level, it goes off and kills the girl. You are distraught. Should you be charged with a crime? You didn't intend to fire the weapon (or crash the car) it was an accident. You are sad, she was your friend, too and your best buddies girlfriend (he was your child in the car). Sure, in retrospect you should have put the gun down (buckled your kid up.)

We all know all the rules about gun safety, but up to the time when that gun went off, the guy had not committed a crime, while the parent had, by not buckling up the kid. I bet most people would be more than willing to charge the kid with recklessly shooting the girl, but still have the issues with the seatbelt thing. You need to remember that these charging decisions set policies and precedents which will be applied to fact scenarios you can't even imagine when you make that decision, which is why I said they should be charged, but then you can adjust the disposition.

HB

[aksheephuntress]

  Hoosierbuck said:

Look, I realize that I am being picky here with legal definitions and all that, but if you are going to debate a serious legal topic, there has to be a fundamental understanding of certain notions and terms that just aren't used the same in everyday vernacular. Lots of times people think the system is so ridiculous and this or that is so unreasonable, and many times that opinion is based on misunderstandings or tunnel vision. Example: You are at your dear friend's house and pick up his new semi-automatic pistol. You pull the mag and then start drawing it and messing around, chambering rounds, putting the mag back, etc. You are standing at the foot of the bed and your friend and his girlfriend are laying there watching tv, you fumble the gun and catch it right at bed level, it goes off and kills the girl. You are distraught. Should you be charged with a crime? You didn't intend to fire the weapon (or crash the car) it was an accident. You are sad, she was your friend, too and your best buddies girlfriend (he was your child in the car). Sure, in retrospect you should have put the gun down (buckled your kid up.)

We all know all the rules about gun safety, but up to the time when that gun went off, the guy had not committed a crime, while the parent had, by not buckling up the kid. I bet most people would be more than willing to charge the kid with recklessly shooting the girl, but still have the issues with the seatbelt thing. You need to remember that these charging decisions set policies and precedents which will be applied to fact scenarios you can't even imagine when you make that decision, which is why I said they should be charged, but then you can adjust the disposition.

HB

.....Chris...I have seen the back-and -forth posts on this issue..and they have really caused me to do a lot of thinking on this whole thing...

-While I really agree with Wtnhunt the most...I can see yours and Mugg's (different)points..

-Also...what you have to share and add here on this issue is extremely valuable...especially with your legal background...

-Gee..this does get really convoluted...

but...you know, your last sentence in this post..."that policies and procedures will be applied in fact to scenarios that you can't even imagine.."-(I think I quoted it right..correct me if I'm wrong..)- is exactly what we want to avoid..

-Once they are set-(stautes), " adjusting the disposition" is not always an option; especially for someone who can't afford to hire a really good attorney.....am I understanding you to say that the laws should be set stricter then what should be called for...and then you "litigate"...or "bargain" down??

-Also...the statutes set at this level, will just cost the taxpayers more for the legal machine..and not do any good, as Wtnhunt said in one of his posts, for the parent to be thrown in jail;with possibly other kids who need to be taken care of...

[Ravin R10 man]

  Andrea said:

I think I need to hear more details before I pass judgment on this one. Many times I have seen kids that age put their seat belts on only to remove them later and the parent never noticed. And I can see this happening very easily in a vehicle like a mini-van where the parent can't really see the kids as easily as they would in a car.

If that were the case, the death of that child alone is punishment enough. Very sad.........

that was my first thought...