Guest SavageTaylor Posted January 26, 2005 Report Share Posted January 26, 2005 Re: Self Defense Pistol [ QUOTE ] Not enough ammo....lol. [/ QUOTE ] With two speedloaders I am good for 18 rounds of .44 Mag before I have to slow down much... but if the perp's are cut'n loose with 30 round mags, then retreat or at least keeping one's head down sounds like a good plan. Sounds like Buckfever7 needs a better class of neibors... . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest ronin Posted January 29, 2005 Report Share Posted January 29, 2005 Re: Self Defense Pistol Your the first person I met that has the Cougar...what's it like? I haven't even had a chance to shoot one. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Big_Game_Hunter_64 Posted February 4, 2005 Report Share Posted February 4, 2005 Re: Self Defense Pistol id reccomend the M16 or the AK-47 lol jk (i dont know anything about pistols) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Strut10 Posted February 4, 2005 Report Share Posted February 4, 2005 Re: Self Defense Pistol [ QUOTE ] Some of them are a bit pricey, but when your life is threatened money is not an issue. [/ QUOTE ] EXACTLY!! I don't wanna stake my life on the cheapest tool I can find. Heaven forbid I ever have to use one of my defense guns against another human being. I hope I never have to. But I am certain............absolutely certain............if I do, the gun will hold up its end of the deal. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Orion_70 Posted February 4, 2005 Report Share Posted February 4, 2005 Re: Self Defense Pistol When I was a police officer I carried a Sig.. Still carry one too. They're a little pricey but well worth it.(Texas Rangers and SEALS carry the sigs also) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest RkyMtn Posted February 6, 2005 Report Share Posted February 6, 2005 Re: Self Defense Pistol Please, please, please, do not trust your life to a pistol of minor caliber!! .40 or larger is necessary for one stop shots!! This is your primary concern in a gunfight, knife v. gun, knife v. club etc! Most confrontations are within arms reach, and even a pistol of major caliber may not prevent you from being injured or killed after shots are fired. Also, fewer shots to stop forward progress looks a lot better in court. I have a .380, but I would not carry it. My 5'11" 165 pound frame (READ SKINNY!) can conceal a 4" XD .40 very well, even during competive archery shoots. DON'T GET A SMALLER GUN, GET A BIGGER SHIRT! Also, the ideal self defense gun will penetrate 13.5", overpowered guns such as the .357 sig, 44 mag, 10mm dump energy BEHIND the target, such as into a wall, your neighbor, the cat, into a store, a child, etc. Feel free to explain that to the law. Good luck and stay safe!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ZooBear Posted February 6, 2005 Report Share Posted February 6, 2005 Re: Self Defense Pistol If you get shot in the head with a 380 you are stopped. Where did the 13.5 inches come from? Why would that be the "ideal" vs 14.5 or 12.5 ?? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest ronin Posted February 6, 2005 Report Share Posted February 6, 2005 Re: Self Defense Pistol "One shot stops", "stopping power", etc. are phrases that give the wrong impression to new and old self defense gun owners. Hollywood has the average person believing that when a bad guy gets shot he's thrown back against a wall 2-3' and expires with little more than a twitch. Any hunter who has shot a deer in the vitals with a "high power" rifle should know that doesn't happen much. I've shot coyotes with an 8mm in the chest cavity that still ran 100 yards. I don't know how many actual shootings you have seen but there are rarely "one shot stops". (I'm not trying to be a jerk, I just don't know your background, thus the statement. ) It doesn't mean one shot won't kill eventually but eventually is not what a person trying to save their own or others lives is worried about. When an attackers' blood is flowing or worse yet, its coupled with drugs, he or she can be capable of amazing things in a relatively short period of time. To include killing a home owner who just shot him in a vital area with a big handgun bullet. As I mentioned before, big bullets from big cartiridges have a better chance of doing more damage as they create a larger wound channel and often penetrate deeper. But...a well placed little bullet can kill just as well. As a matter of fact, numerous well placed little bullets can be even more effective. Some people just can' take the recoil or noise of larger guns, simple as that. They should shoot a smaller gun that they handle in a more effective manner. IMO, self defense shooters should be more concerned with proper training for defensive shooting situations. Training that includes stress, timing, barriers, darkeness, multiple targets, holsters, etc. There are several highly qualified schools that fit that bill. Personally, I prefer a method called zipline shooting. I put bullets down range until the threat is stopped. One bullet is not the answer. Lastly, if a phrase has to be used I would prefer one like "stopping the threat", "stopping target" or "terminal point of impact". The only place that I know that works for sure is in the old brain bucket. Triple tap to the chest, if that doesn't work two more to the head. It only take a second or two. This may sound brutal but it is the truth. IMO, look, handle, feel, and shoot until your comfortable. Only then are your truly ready for the threat. A brand or bullet isn't necessarily the answer. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
snapper Posted February 6, 2005 Report Share Posted February 6, 2005 Re: Self Defense Pistol 1. Any gun is better than NO gun! 2. Reliable is more important than size of bullet! 3. Know how to shoot it! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest ronin Posted February 7, 2005 Report Share Posted February 7, 2005 Re: Self Defense Pistol Amen, brother... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest RkyMtn Posted February 7, 2005 Report Share Posted February 7, 2005 Re: Self Defense Pistol If you're planning on a head shot you are not being realistic. Good luck, I hope it works for you. The old failure drill is great practice, but there is a reason you put two in the chest BEFORE you put one in the head. 13.5 inches is the average adult torso, give or take. Thus, if a bullet looses it's energy at or around this depth it can be assumed that all kinetic energy from the bullet has been transferred to the target and not behind it. This is a good thing. (Some of the aforementioned would include not hitting a friendly behind the threat. See above.) A one shot stop, for those who don't know, indicates one shot to stop forward progress. Evan Marshall and a handful of others have done much research on this. Data is readily available from police, military, and civilian encounters. Although the experts don’t always agree on the exact numbers they do always agree that some calibers are consistently better than others. Don’t take it personally, that’s just what the experts say. You can check for yourself. It seems logical that someone looking for a self-defense piece would be interested in one that statistically has better results in the real world. Stopping power has nothing to do with Hollywood movies, it's a term used in the real world by real tacticians. Any fool can see the difference between a .380 and a .45 with their eyeballs. I understand that caliber choice is a very personal one. Ronin, I mean no disrespect. Facts are facts. If the fact is, for example, that you can only conceal a .32 ACP, that’s fine. Even a .22 lr is certainly much better than nothing. However, many things come into play when making that choice, and everyone needs as much information as possible. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Strut10 Posted February 8, 2005 Report Share Posted February 8, 2005 Re: Self Defense Pistol [ QUOTE ] If you're planning on a head shot you are not being realistic. Good luck, I hope it works for you. The old failure drill is great practice, but there is a reason you put two in the chest BEFORE you put one in the head. [/ QUOTE ] Bingo!! 2 shots center mass..........then maybe you get creative. The head's a darn small target to hit. Add in poor lighting, movement, obstacles, return fire, and more adrenaline/panic than you could imagine and you have a very low-percentage proposition. 2 shots center mass Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest ronin Posted February 8, 2005 Report Share Posted February 8, 2005 Re: Self Defense Pistol You missed what I just wrote...triple tap, (or more), to the chest...FIRST It appears you missed what I originally wrote about a preference for the .45. You also seem to have missed what I wrote about wound channel, penetration, large bullets, etc. FWIW, I've done the research and everything I wrote is based on scientific research for the military and police. And, unlike most...from personal experience. Lastly, I think I've been saying all along what you summed up in your last paragraph about personal choice. I think you've been selective about what I've wrote or perhaps, simply want to argue. We seem to have the same information about large bullets v. smaller ones. I've simply tried to say that sometimes you have to know HOW to employ the smaller ones when that is what you have. I have also tried to dispell the myth that one shot stops are the norm and should be expected. They should not. Reliance on that notion is dangerous. Anyway, I've obviously irritated you somewhat. I am sorry for that as it was not my intention. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WNY_Whitetailer Posted February 9, 2005 Report Share Posted February 9, 2005 Re: Self Defense Pistol I'm back to the motto that any gun is better than no gun...Sure I would like to be able to conceal an XD 40 Sub-Compact or Glock model 27 when it is 90 out during the summer but that is not going to happen with a t-shirt and shorts on. I need something that I can stick in my pocket in a pocket holster...That's where the "little" guns come into play. 32ACP, 380 Auto, etc etc etc...May not be a 40, 357 Sig or a 45 but those calibers are better than nothing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Strut_Buster Posted February 9, 2005 Report Share Posted February 9, 2005 Re: Self Defense Pistol Maybe You should Consider the 500 S&W. Imagine the Shear terror you could strike into the heart of a target without even fireing a shot. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest ronin Posted February 9, 2005 Report Share Posted February 9, 2005 Re: Self Defense Pistol Actually, the sheer terror your lower back will complain of after one day of toting that big boy around...I still deperately want one, though! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest ronin Posted February 9, 2005 Report Share Posted February 9, 2005 Re: Self Defense Pistol Actually, the sheer terror your lower back will complain of after one day of toting that big boy around...I still deperately want one, though! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Strut10 Posted February 9, 2005 Report Share Posted February 9, 2005 Re: Self Defense Pistol [ QUOTE ] Sure I would like to be able to conceal an XD 40 Sub-Compact or Glock model 27 when it is 90 out during the summer but that is not going to happen with a t-shirt and shorts on. [/ QUOTE ] I guess I'll beg to differ on this opinion. I'm not huge or stocky or fat. I'm 6'2" and 195 lbs. My "constant companion" is a Glock 29 10MM in a $7.00 #15 Uncle Mike's nylon ITP holster. Shorts and a T-shirt and a 10MM...............nobody could look at me and tell you I was packing. If you told them I was packing, they couldn't tell you where I had it. As carry guns go, the Glock 29 is not a particularly dainty one. I also have carried a Glock 23, a Glock 27 and a Browning Hi-Power in the same manner with the same ease. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Orion_70 Posted February 9, 2005 Report Share Posted February 9, 2005 Re: Self Defense Pistol If it's a little gun you're looking for that's easily concealable, why not look at a derringer? Get a .357 or .44 mag derringer. You only get 2 shots, but they get the job done. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest ronin Posted February 9, 2005 Report Share Posted February 9, 2005 Re: Self Defense Pistol Actually, that can be a great idea and I know acouple of guys that do just that. But, they are very, very good. The most recent, up to date, studies of gunfights show what RkyMtn said in regards to a gunfight beginning and the proximity to the threat, roughly arms length. But, they also show that even practiced, professional shooters often miss...sometimes with an entire magazine! Why does that happen? The answer does not come down to a single factor but several of the most important seem to be as follows: The fight starts close but becomes fluid with both parties separating for distance, cover, or both. The blood pressure is going through the roof and that front sight post is often ignored. Even after tens of thousands of rounds down range. Tunnel vision occurs instantly. The shooters' realm sphere of awareness is narrowed down to a tiny fraction of what it once was. There are more but I think these three acount for most of the misses. I don't completely trust myself to just two bullets...but thats me. I choose to have a minimum of 6-7 with a spare mag or speed loader, (revolver), close by. It also comes down to what WNY Whitetailer said and that is any gun is better than no gun. Geez, I know I'm long winded and I'm sorry for that! This is just one of those topics that I am deeply concerned about. Practice the stressful situations that might come about during a gun fight and choose your weapon accordingly. I rarely, if ever, target practice with a pistol. I practice using combat techniques only. Those techniques that I want muscle memory to take over if I get into a fight. That is the only reason I have a handgun to begin with. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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