popgun Posted January 20, 2005 Report Share Posted January 20, 2005 To my knowledge the Savage 10ML is the only production model muzzeloader that will shoot smokeless powder safely. There is a lot more to going smokeless than simply changing the breach plug. Most muzzeloader barrels are not made to withstand the pressures of Smokeless. I love shooting my smokeless Savage, but it is designed for the task. I would not shoot smokeless in any other front-stuffer. .....popgun Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David_218 Posted January 20, 2005 Report Share Posted January 20, 2005 Re: Smokeless Shooting Technology Rises I would seriously question the safety factor in using Smokeless Powders in a regular M/L. Also I would think this system would be too close to a "Breech loader" instead of a M/L system. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
too_pointer Posted January 20, 2005 Report Share Posted January 20, 2005 Re: Smokeless Shooting Technology Rises It is certainly interesting.Thanks for the info trip 7 ! I don't see the accuracy as something huge. I won't try it in my Encore, at least not yet till I see something from people who have shot and tested it. too_pointer Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
horst Posted January 21, 2005 Report Share Posted January 21, 2005 Re: Smokeless Shooting Technology Rises One of the regulations here in Iowa is the gun must be loaded from the front of the barrel, cant help but think this would be awfull close to illegal in that regard.Other than that they didnt have a whole lot of information about how the gun worked so I cant say much about it, interesting looking design anyway. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AaronS Posted January 21, 2005 Report Share Posted January 21, 2005 Re: Smokeless Shooting Technology Rises Another concern I would have is all ML barrels I've seen are stamped with "Use black powder only". With that I would assume using smokeless powder will void any warranty and release the gunmaker from any liabilities if the shooter was harmed from a damaged gun. In other words "try at your own risk". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest RandyWakeman Posted January 21, 2005 Report Share Posted January 21, 2005 Re: Smokeless Shooting Technology Rises [ QUOTE ] Another concern I would have is all ML barrels I've seen are stamped with "Use black powder only". With that I would assume using smokeless powder will void any warranty and release the gunmaker from any liabilities if the shooter was harmed from a damaged gun. In other words "try at your own risk". [/ QUOTE ] That is Thompson's stance-- a change of a breechplug in no way changes their owner's manual and related warnings Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DannoBoone1 Posted January 21, 2005 Report Share Posted January 21, 2005 Re: Smokeless Shooting Technology Rises It may or may not be "safe". I inquired of VVCG about making a smokeless barrel for the Encore. Steve Stratton told me there was just not enough diameter in the bridge of the receiver to allow a barrel with enough diameter to be safe for .50 muzzleloader, in their opinion. This Modernmuzzleloading site is none too specific, other than getting 2100 fps with a 250gr XTP. With some powders, that could be less pressure than that developed by 777, yet with other powders, it could be more. This is an area that is hardly explored. They would have to do some serious pressure testing and make the results public before I would attempt it in my rifle. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AJ Posted January 21, 2005 Report Share Posted January 21, 2005 Re: Smokeless Shooting Technology Rises Very true DB1! Using their setup, the breechplug is acting like a chamber. It can be hardened and made to withstand moderate pressures. They are using 39 gr of powder (which one, I dunno) to get 2100 fps. This is a moderate load and probably produces about the same peak pressure as the 150 gr pyrodex loads or the 777 loads. The pressure peak for the stinky stuff is drawn out longer than smokeless powder is. I have had a similar idea for standard muzzleloaders. Grated it will not be as stout as the Savage but you should be able to duplicate standard Pyrodex or 777 ballistics safely. Where it gets nasty is some yahoo sees some of the loads we shoot in the Savage and decides to try these in the converted barrel and it comes apart. That kept me from proceeding forwards with the idea. I think when used with some common sence, it will work just fine. If the shooter gets velocity hungry and wants to see what it will do, all bets are off. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Rod Posted January 23, 2005 Report Share Posted January 23, 2005 Re: Smokeless Shooting Technology Rises Interesting design, but it would not be legal to use for deer hunting here. Muzzleloaders used with smokeless powder are illegal in Illinois. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest RandyWakeman Posted January 23, 2005 Report Share Posted January 23, 2005 Re: Smokeless Shooting Technology Rises [ QUOTE ] Interesting design, but it would not be legal to use for deer hunting here. Muzzleloaders used with smokeless powder are illegal in Illinois. [/ QUOTE ] That was last year. It would not seem to be a muzzleloader. After all, the grenade launcher on an M1 Garand shoots .30-06 blanks to lob grenades. This hybrid is a cartridge gun, with solely a frontloaded projectile. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Rod Posted January 23, 2005 Report Share Posted January 23, 2005 Re: Smokeless Shooting Technology Rises Illinois Digest of Hunting & Trapping Regulations - 2004/2005 states on page 11: "Only black powder or a "black powder substitute" such as Pyrodex may be used. Modern smokeless powders do not qualify as a "black powder substitute". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hangunnr Posted January 23, 2005 Report Share Posted January 23, 2005 Re: Smokeless Shooting Technology Rises "This hybrid is a cartridge gun, with solely a frontloaded projectile. " Completely agree.... A gun with this system may well test the sense of humor of a DNR officer. I gotta wonder if you couldn't take a .45-70 Encore barrel and accomplish the same thing. Load up some primed cases with a proper powder charge and wadding then stuff a .45 cal bullet down the bore on top of it. hangunnr Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest RandyWakeman Posted January 23, 2005 Report Share Posted January 23, 2005 Re: Smokeless Shooting Technology Rises [ QUOTE ] Illinois Digest of Hunting & Trapping Regulations - 2004/2005 states on page 11: "Only black powder or a "black powder substitute" such as Pyrodex may be used. Modern smokeless powders do not qualify as a "black powder substitute". [/ QUOTE ] As I said-- that was for last year. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest RandyWakeman Posted January 23, 2005 Report Share Posted January 23, 2005 Re: Smokeless Shooting Technology Rises [ QUOTE ] I gotta wonder if you couldn't take a .45-70 Encore barrel and accomplish the same thing. Load up some primed cases with a proper powder charge and wadding then stuff a .45 cal bullet down the bore on top of it. hangunnr [/ QUOTE ] Or any straight case load within reason. When Tony Knight came up with "Modern Muzzleloading," he was still pouring powder down the muzzle. Don't know the powder used either-- but would bet a cup of coffee it is 5744. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Rod Posted January 23, 2005 Report Share Posted January 23, 2005 Re: Smokeless Shooting Technology Rises Well since the 2004/2005 book is good thru 7/31/05 and covers the season that just ended, I guess we'll just have to see about "this" year won't we? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest RandyWakeman Posted January 23, 2005 Report Share Posted January 23, 2005 Re: Smokeless Shooting Technology Rises There is nothing to debate-- if you really are not aware that I have been working with DNR's for some time, now you should be. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
popgun Posted January 23, 2005 Author Report Share Posted January 23, 2005 Re: Smokeless Shooting Technology Rises RandyWakeman, I thank you. My son and I did not get drawn for ML tags this year in Ill. I was afraid I was going to be forced to use 777 or Pyrodex in my Savage 10MLII, and I have not yet worked up a load for it with either of these choices. My Savage has never smoked and I am glad to hear that if we finally are lucky enough to get drawn for tags this coming season that I can use what the rifle was designed for.(Smokeless) 43 grns. VVN110 w/250SST.(my present deer load) I have no reason to doubt your word. Thanks again. .....popgun Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest RandyWakeman Posted April 21, 2005 Report Share Posted April 21, 2005 Re: Smokeless Shooting Technology Rises [ QUOTE ] RandyWakeman, I thank you. My son and I did not get drawn for ML tags this year in Ill. I was afraid I was going to be forced to use 777 or Pyrodex in my Savage 10MLII, and I have not yet worked up a load for it with either of these choices. My Savage has never smoked and I am glad to hear that if we finally are lucky enough to get drawn for tags this coming season that I can use what the rifle was designed for.(Smokeless) 43 grns. VVN110 w/250SST.(my present deer load) I have no reason to doubt your word. Thanks again. .....popgun [/ QUOTE ] Smokeless muzzleloading is now legal in all firearm seasons in Illinois. You are quite welcome. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest RandyWakeman Posted April 21, 2005 Report Share Posted April 21, 2005 Re: Smokeless Shooting Technology Rises The administrative rule change has been posted for a long time-- the time for public comment expired 4/11/2005. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AJ Posted April 26, 2005 Report Share Posted April 26, 2005 Re: Smokeless Shooting Technology Rises [ QUOTE ] I would assume that after one loads the cartridge into the chamber, he would then push a projectile down the barrel with the ramrod. Sounds like fun, ramming a bullet down the barrel while a primed charge sits in the chamber. [/ QUOTE ] Why couldn't you seat the bullet against the breechplug, then insert the primed and charged cartridge in the breechplug? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest RandyWakeman Posted April 26, 2005 Report Share Posted April 26, 2005 Re: Smokeless Shooting Technology Rises [ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] I would assume that after one loads the cartridge into the chamber, he would then push a projectile down the barrel with the ramrod. Sounds like fun, ramming a bullet down the barrel while a primed charge sits in the chamber. [/ QUOTE ] Why couldn't you seat the bullet against the breechplug, then insert the primed and charged cartridge in the breechplug? [/ QUOTE ] Of course-- ignition source is always inserted last. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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