pass through question?

[ohiobuckhunter]

i was wondering if i could get some info on why i'm not getting pass throughs. so far this year i have shot 2 does 1 recovered and 1 not recovered the shots were at 33 yards and 12 yards neither one passed through the doe i found it went through the ribs then the lungs and even busted through the other side of her ribs but stopped just before breaking the skin on the other side so i'm only getting entrance holes. it's not even getting enough penetration to make an exit hole any ideas why? i am shooting a fred bear code set at 63 pounds with a 26 1/2" draw with gold tip hunter arrows and rage 3 blade 100 grain heads. any info as to what i can do to get more penetration would be great thanks. oh and another thing is both shots i have made this year the arrow has broke off inside them. why do my arrows keep breaking i don't even use the same arrows to hunt and practice with. the arrows i hunt with are on their first flight so it can't be because there weak from being shot so much .

[Guest Mark_85]

not enough speed most likely.

[atthewall]

Might want to consider the Rage 2 blade or switch to a fixed 2 blade design like the Magnus Stingers or Buzzcuts. As mentioned, you might be a little on the low side in speed for the 3 blade Rage to really punch through after impact? As long as it's working and your keeping your shots in the boiler room, it's all good.

[artisticwhitetails]

Your arrows are breaking because the fletched side sticking out of the the body cavity is getting caught on trees and brush while the deer is running. Nothing strange about that.

As to you not getting pass thrus, not enough ke with your short draw and poundage. Change heads first and see what happens, that would be the cheapest fix. I would lose the rage and go with a good fixed blade head for your set up. A 100gr Slick Trick magnum or Muzzy comes to mind.

[Big12Eric]

i would try a 2 blade rage. If you are putting your shots in the lungs a 2 blade rage will tear up that deer inside. Even if it doesn't go all the way through the deer shouldn't go more than 75 yds tops. These broadheads do the job and are a little more forgiving if the shot is not quite where you wanted it. Just my opinion. Most guys i have talked with that used the 3 blade have went to the 2 blade.

[backwoods07]

Yup, everyone here is right. Alright, this may get boring, but here's a lesson in physics dealing with potential and kinetic energy. The blades on a pre deployed Rage 3 have a ton of potential energy, which obviously means when the arrow is in flight, the blades haven't moved, and have all of their energy stored up waiting to explode. When they hit the animal, the blades deploy and turn into kinetic energy, or energy that is being used. It takes a certain amount of energy to actually deploy the blades. This energy is taken away from the energy that would otherwise be used to pass through the animal. Each part of the broadhead and the animal acts as a brake and uses up kinetic energy, causing the arrow to slow down. The Rage 3 has a ton of drag as it passes through the animal and continually is slowed down. In your case, all of the kinetic energy is used up before the arrow gets through the other side. If you want to add more energy, increase poundage, increase draw length (pretty much impossible if your draw length fits you), or use fixed blades so energy isn't used to open the broadhead up.

Yup! And you all thought you'd never see physics in your life after school!!!

[Adjam5]

As to you not getting pass thrus, not enough ke with your short draw and poundage. Change heads first and see what happens, that would be the cheapest fix. I would lose the rage and go with a good fixed blade head for your set up. A 100gr Slick Trick magnum or Muzzy comes to mind.

I agree completely.

[WHISKEYSWAMP]

I use the rage 3 blade as well... bow is max out at around 70lbs with 28" draw... I shot a doe at 5 yards and it did not pass thru... I also had a quartering to me shot and had to aim right through top of her shoulder... It made a big entrance hole and logged in the other side rib cage... she only ran about 60 yards and died. My arrow also broke... think it was from it being logged in her shoulder bone and got torqued while she was running.

My antelope I shot in Wyoming had a complete rib cage pass through at 48 yards... probably depends on how much bone you hit.

[ohiobuckhunter]

i really don't think it could be the poundage or the draw because i used my son's bow a few times last year while my bow was in the shop and it was a browning micro adrenaline set at 42 pounds and i changed the draw to fit me and i blew clean through a button buck at 25 yards and i was using scorpion xt 100 gr. mechanical head and as far as my bow lacks the speed i need when i put it through the chrono. it was shooting 308 fps. so i think the speed is there i just can't see why the doe at 12 yards didn't go clean through her? the set up worked and did a great job huge entrance hole and a double lung shot. she only went about 40 yards and there was a great blood trail but i would like to get pass throughs so i can do as much damage as possible and to have better blood trails.

[BowtechTurkeyHunter]

If you want pass throughs go to a fixed blade broad head with a cut on contact point. If you want to consistantly kill deer fast with a mechanical blade go to the Rage 2 blade .... they each do different things as described above. But in my experience the only Rage I have ever heard of blowing through on a pass through is the Rage 2 blade I have never heard of the 3 blade and a pass through Not saying it cant happen just not as common.

Steve

[hutchies]

Heavier arrows is the key............Speed can only do so much if you are shooting a light arrow. It's kind of like this..........if you hit a brick wall with a motorcycle and a eighteen wheeler which is more likely gonna make it thru.

[GWSmith]

I use the rage 3 blade as well... bow is max out at around 70lbs with 28" draw... I shot a doe at 5 yards and it did not pass thru... I also had a quartering to me shot and had to aim right through top of her shoulder... It made a big entrance hole and logged in the other side rib cage... she only ran about 60 yards and died. My arrow also broke... think it was from it being logged in her shoulder bone and got torqued while she was running.

My antelope I shot in Wyoming had a complete rib cage pass through at 48 yards... probably depends on how much bone you hit.

Thats the problem right there...

Opening weekend of Bow season here I watched my friend stick a beautiful Doe, broadside, right behind the shoulder 2/3 of the way up the body. The other side must have caught enough of the shoulder blade and slowed the arrows penetration. The fletching stopped right as it touched the hair of the deer...then just as the deer started to run off the fletching turned sideways! We found the back half of the arrow 60-75yds away. Enough of the arrow had penetrated well enough to kill the deer...but did not pass through and got chopped off by the offside shoulder as the deer ran.

I COMPLETELY DISAGREE with those who believe that 63lbs of draw weight is not enough to get a pass through!

The closer you try to sneak it towards the back of those front legs...the more likely you are to hit the shoulder on the offside. Most of the time the deer is starting to react to the sound it heard by the time your arrow gets there. It may be a slight change because of the speed of the arrow...but even a perfectly broadside deer will begin to turn away(Exposing the Offside Shoulder).

People shooting draw weights in the 40's are getting pass throughs! Double Lung Shot Placement and they get lucky and hit few ribs on the way through.

Remember...Not every Bullet fired from a rifle makes it through a deer either...hit bone of any kind and it changes everything.

[artisticwhitetails]

I COMPLETELY DISAGREE with those who believe that 63lbs of draw weight is not enough to get a pass through!

The closer you try to sneak it towards the back of those front legs...the more likely you are to hit the shoulder on the offside. Most of the time the deer is starting to react to the sound it heard by the time your arrow gets there. It may be a slight change because of the speed of the arrow...but even a perfectly broadside deer will begin to turn away(Exposing the Offside Shoulder).

People shooting draw weights in the 40's are getting pass throughs! Double Lung Shot Placement and they get lucky and hit few ribs on the way through.

Remember...Not every Bullet fired from a rifle makes it through a deer either...hit bone of any kind and it changes everything.

"Heavier arrows is the key............Speed can only do so much if you are shooting a light arrow. It's kind of like this..........if you hit a brick wall with a motorcycle and a eighteen wheeler which is more likely gonna make it thru."- hutchies

Bingo! Good analogy!

GW,

No one is saying 63lbs isnt good enough, what they are saying is it's not good enough for short, light arrows tipped with Rage 3 blades. Im shooting short draw, low poundage myself, a 27" Outback maxed out at 60lbs. With 27" GT XT's and Slick Tricks it blows through deer. However, when hunting hogs I want more KE, so I change the WB disk and replace the GT's with 26" XX75 2213's tipped with 125gr Muzzy's or Stingers. This heavier, slower arrow has no problems getting through the thick sheild of hogs when the GT's get stopped well short.

[Leo]

Thats the problem right there...

Opening weekend of Bow season here I watched my friend stick a beautiful Doe, broadside, right behind the shoulder 2/3 of the way up the body. The other side must have caught enough of the shoulder blade and slowed the arrows penetration. The fletching stopped right as it touched the hair of the deer...then just as the deer started to run off the fletching turned sideways! We found the back half of the arrow 60-75yds away. Enough of the arrow had penetrated well enough to kill the deer...but did not pass through and got chopped off by the offside shoulder as the deer ran.

I COMPLETELY DISAGREE with those who believe that 63lbs of draw weight is not enough to get a pass through!

The closer you try to sneak it towards the back of those front legs...the more likely you are to hit the shoulder on the offside. Most of the time the deer is starting to react to the sound it heard by the time your arrow gets there. It may be a slight change because of the speed of the arrow...but even a perfectly broadside deer will begin to turn away(Exposing the Offside Shoulder).

People shooting draw weights in the 40's are getting pass throughs! Double Lung Shot Placement and they get lucky and hit few ribs on the way through.

Remember...Not every Bullet fired from a rifle makes it through a deer either...hit bone of any kind and it changes everything.

Whiskyswamp and GWSmith have a valid point. The toughest bone in a whitetail can stop ANY arrow and many kinds of bullets from various cartridges COLD.

A couple key stoppers are the spine itself, the shoulder blade and pelvis.

I've gotten complete pass throughs with 55lbs and had it stopped cold shooting 92lbs. Both cases were with the same fixed blade (very popular brand) broadhead.

63lbs should be plenty of gas to drive through whitetail road. Even with mechanicals. Though many mechs tend to hang on the fletching on the exit side and then drop. Technically, with an entry and exit hole it's still a pass through.

A perfectly broadside shot that avoids the heavy bones should zip right through. In my experience, quartering shots have a tendency to "funnel" the arrow towards a solid piece of bone.

[HUNTINGMAN]

There are to many factors to mention.I think the first thing would be to switch to a fixed blade head such as muzzy or a cut on contact head like the magnus.You should have plenty of poundage for a pass through,shot placement is the most important thing to me.The arrow weight does play a part in penetration but you dont want to go to heavy so that it slowes down your speed to much though.

[Tominator]

If you want pass throughs go to a fixed blade broad head with a cut on contact point. If you want to consistantly kill deer fast with a mechanical blade go to the Rage 2 blade .... they each do different things as described above. But in my experience the only Rage I have ever heard of blowing through on a pass through is the Rage 2 blade I have never heard of the 3 blade and a pass through Not saying it cant happen just not as common.

Steve

Ditto. I've heard penetration issues with the Rage 3 blade. As far as the 2 blade, I can attest that the little blade on the point of that head is not sharp at all. I think a butter knife is sharper. Of the 4 deer I've shot with the Rage, only 1 passed through, and that was a fawn at 12 yards. 1 deer was lost with a washed away blood trail, 1 got an exit wound, and the buck I shot this year had the head lodged in the offside ribcage. The doe I shot Sunday with a Muzzy 3 blade blew right through the deer exiting the off shoulder.

[GWSmith]

Arrows: Kinetic Energy vs. Momentum

Blayne Kesse, Cummings, Kansas: "I shoot a Hoyt MT Sport bow set at 70 lbs. and 28 inches. I'm currently shooting Easton Carbon Epic arrows weighing 8.17 GPI with a 100 grain tip. I previously shot Carbon Express Terminator arrows weighing 10.7 GPI, however, after shooting through a chronograph I noticed that the heavy arrows were lobbing along at only 250 feet per second (fps), and the lighter ones are up around 270-275 fps. Should I shoot a heavier arrow that flies slower but carries more kinetic energy or shoot a lighter arrow that flies much faster but carries less kinetic energy? Which aspect of arrow flight is more important? Or, should I try the best of both worlds and shoot a 8-9 GPI arrow? Thanks for the help."

This is always a debate among archers. In part it depends on what you're hunting and I'm assuming it's probably whitetailed deer. In that case either arrow will give you good results and the faster set-up might help with the problem of string jumping provided you can shoot it accurately. If you were going after elk where two-hole penetration is paramount, I'd suggest the heavier arrow. That's because kinetic energy it not the only indicator. That formula is only a reference. Momentum it probably a larger factor. A light arrow will slow down, or lose its initial energy quicker than a heavier arrow. That's why bowhunters who pursue dangerous game such as large bears and cape buffalo, go with very heavy arrows. However they don't have to deal with the problem of string jumping. If you're hunting antelope or nervous whitetails a little extra speed doesn't hurt as long as you don't go too light.

In the overall scheme of things the 20 to 25 fps you gain with the lighter arrow is probably not enough to make a difference. A bow shooting a heavier arrow will be quieter also. Like most things, either extreme is not the way to go. A compromise would certainly work but I wouldn't go buy new arrows as you'll be fine with the setup you have.

Curt Wells, Equipment Editor

http://preview.bowhunter.com/bn_askbowhunter/BHM0510_ask/

This is the point I was trying to make!

The Kinetic Energy is there to get pass throughs...but the Momentum is not.

Assuming that the arrow weight will probably not change with the original posters setup...the only way to get a pass through would be from shot placement that decreases the chance of bone contact.

With heavier arrows the likelyhood of pass throughs increase.

I agree with Hutchies analogy about the motorcycle and the 18 wheeler.

The motorcycle can be blazing fast when it hits the wall and do little damage...the 18wheeler can coast into the wall and push it over. A perfect example of how kinetic energy decreases rapidly as the weight of the object is lighter.

[Jeramie]

I COMPLETELY DISAGREE with those who believe that 63lbs of draw weight is not enough to get a pass through!

I agree 100%. That is plenty of energy to get through a deer.

Make sure youre using a NEW head when hunting. A dull blade is going to hinder a pass through. A new head will make all the difference in the world. Also, get away from the mechanical with a light weight draw. A fixed head will serve you much better.

And lastley, broken arrows can be from the deer rolling. I have seen a deer roll and break an arrow off. Its pretty common. However, it sounds like the bh was probably in bone in order for that deer to break that arrow off. That could be a HUGE reason for the lack of Pass Through. A good fixed blade like a Muzzy could potentially pass through the bone too.

[ohiobuckhunter]

well thanks for all the info i think i may try a diffrent head the next time i go out i like the magnus heads. the only issue i have had with fixed blades is that i get alot more arrow play and sometimes even an erratic shot where it will be right on line and then kick way out to the left. compared to the rage heads are dead on every time

[Missilelock]

It only stands to reason, that no matter how much kenetic energy your setup puts out, that there is some point where you just have too much broadhead to achieve the penetration you need. it sounds to me like a rage 3 blade expandable may be past that point for you & the setup you are currently shooting. Either pick up the KE or drop the head size.

[GWSmith]

well thanks for all the info i think i may try a diffrent head the next time i go out i like the magnus heads. the only issue i have had with fixed blades is that i get alot more arrow play and sometimes even an erratic shot where it will be right on line and then kick way out to the left. compared to the rage heads are dead on every time

Errant flight from a fixed blade broadhead can be easily fixed! Just get your arrow shafts to a good archery shop and have someone who knows what thier doing use a G5-ASD on them. It will square the insert evenly to the long axis of the arrow shaft and thus when they are installed properly align the broadhead;)

[Hoyt03]

I would hardly never get pass throughs usings mechanicals, maybe like 25%. So far with slick tricks i'm 2 for 2 on pass throughs. One of the shots was exactly like one from last year, same stand, same yardage, same sized buck and my spitfire only penetrated 18 or so inches and my slicktricks blew right though. Mechaniclas open a nice hole but are not great when it comes to penetration, especially on angled shots.

[Swamphunter]

I agree that 63 lbs is enough, but also feel you are lacking KE, in the event of tickling a rib or a shoulder plate. Heavier broadhead/ arrow combinations, and you will likely see a better chance of a pass through though.

[Straight Shooter]

I COMPLETELY DISAGREE with those who believe that 63lbs of draw weight is not enough to get a pass through!

People shooting draw weights in the 40's are getting pass throughs!

quote]

I'm not one to bash other products and this isn't a bash session, but watching video's and hunting shows I always pay close attention to shot placement, passthrough or not, and EQUIPMENT. I have been totally amazed the amount of shows using Rage broadheads and these guys not getting pass throughs. There was even a discussion with my neighbor about this and after bringing it to his attention he stated paying attention to this as well. I couldn't tell you how many deer I've watched and heard about running off without a pass through.

I have no doubt that these arrows kill deer and leave a big hole, but for the money and celebrity cliental selling this product; it's not all its cracked up to be. JMHO Kind of reminds me about when the Crimson Talons hit the market.

[Tony]

the last 3 does i have shot have all been passthroughs at 62 lbs.

im using a Muzzy 75 gr 3 blade and the total arrow weight is only 363 grs. this last doe was quartering away at 31 yards and i got a complete passthrough. but i had to aim just behind her last rib on her right side so the arrow would come out where it did. this is why i consider pinpoint accuracy with broadheads very critical and dont worry about arrow weight or bow poundage. arrow weight and bow poundage are only set to get the best broadhead flight and i dont go hunting unless its perfect.

too many guys think they have to shoot 70 lbs and a 500 gr arrow to kill a deer. but i have brought down a few 200+lb midwest bucks and lots of does with comeplete passthroughs and im only shooting a 360 gr arrow and 62 lbs draw weight. its all about where you place your arrow.

heres the exit wound.

heres my doe from 2007 this doe was perfectly broadside at 18 yards. this is the entrance hole. exit was low behind the front leg.

Tony