Yo, union members. I have a question.

[Leo]

I've been thinking about this and watching it.

The union guys claim management makes too much money for what they do. OK.

The management claim the union guys make too much for what they do. OK.

They both say each other makes this $XXX much and that's ridiculous.

The conclusion EVERYONE should be reaching is that they are ALL to blame and ALL overpaid. BOTH sides need to take a pay cut across the entire company and leave the government out of this. Will it happen? Nope. Neither side wants to give up anything.

[LifeNRA]

So, now the auto company bailout bill has failed in Congress. Want to know why? Part of the deal was that the UAW had to immediately restructure their contracts with GM and Chrysler to bring their wage and benefits package into parity with non-union autoworkers at the Toyota, Nissan and Volkswagen plants. This would have once again made the U.S. auto industry competitive and put them on the road to long term recovery.

But of course the UAW said NO WAY.

And just how big of a hardship would these cuts have imposed on auto workers?

The current UAW contract, which doesn't expire until 2011, pays workers $73 an hour in wages and benefits.

The proposed contract would have paid workers $48 per hour.

Yo, auto workers - Can you say "Chapter 11?" Can you say "No more jobs?"

Are you people freakin' crazy?

WOW! If they want to pay me $48 an hour Ill move!!! Un-believable! $73 per hour!

:rolleyes:

[Texan_Til_I_Die]

>>>Trumpet Fanfare<<< Bush to the rescue!

I watched the President's news conference this morning. $17.4 Billion to GM and Chrysler. Of course, if they don't show a plan for profitability by March 31, all the loans will be recalled. Yeah, right. Couple of problems with that. 1 - It will be an Obama administration that decides whether or not the auto company plans are viable, and 2 - If not, how are they supposed to pay back the loans after they've already blown the money?

This is exactly how I wanted to end my year, with 17.4 billion of my tax dollars continuing to pay uncompetitive wages to the UAW.

[PotashRLS]

I retired from the Air Force and now am in the Steelworkers union in a paper mill.

A couple things I can see the union doing is:

they stand up for substandard workers to keep their jobs, no matter the circumstances (doesn't exactly make people more productive)

they ensure promotions are based on seniority, not ability or performance (there's no incentive to work harder, doing just enough to get by is fine)

As the new guy, this stinks like you wouldn't believe. Watching near worthless people keep jobs and knowing I can never pass them for positions bites.

The days of what the unions were created for are over. They are greedy and it finally caught up to them. Why is it now someone elses fault. Lay in the bed you made. They don't even know how good they had it.

Let them go bankrupt and rehire workers who want to work hard. This obviously will make some folks mad, but I beleive its the sad, sad truth.

[EKYhunter]

I heard on the Radio Factor that the UAW wasn't accepting the President bail out plan because of some of the conditions and they wanted to wait for Obama to take office. Anyone else hear this.

Oh, my opinion is that Bush's announcement today is just another example of elected officials not doing the will of the people.

[nativetexan]

Wait a minute...Bush not doing the will of the people? But the people are waiting on Obama to take office to see what he will do? That makes no sense to me. Obama would probably give them more.

As far as unions go, they can KMA. It's not the government that got them in this mess, it was them. Both the company and the unions. I would suggest beggars not be choosers.

I'm just about sick of the whole thing. Lots of finger pointing, nothing getting done, nobody taking responsibility. Let the whole dang thing fail and allow the people to learn the hard way. "We are going out of business, you have just lost your job, Merry Christmas. Give the missus a kiss for us k?" Arrogant..Arrogant...Arrogant. Would you go to your buddy and ask to borrow money and then demand that he allow you to make the stipulations in which it is paid back? Um no. This whole country is thinking backwards.

[EKYhunter]

Good points nativetexan!

[goodnottygy]

Unions

The next time you complain about a union... think about this. Why do I have vacation time, sick leave, maternity leave, health insurance, paid holidays? The answer is "organized labor." A.K.A. as "unions".

Let us not forget, without unions, we would have NEVER had many fringe benefits that we have today at our jobs. Are unions perfect? No. At least we have some standards to go by, unlike many other countries in this world that have none. We can get a decent wage, instead of pennies a day.

Our fringe benefits are not given to us by the "goodness of their hearts" by any company or state. I don't know about you, but I am glad that we have them or we would not have any benefits at our jobs. If you don't believe that unions have their place, I suggest you to work on "Labor Day", just to make a statement.

[wtnhunt]

The next time you complain about a union... think about this. Why do I have vacation time, sick leave, maternity leave, health insurance, paid holidays? The answer is "organized labor." A.K.A. as "unions".

Let us not forget, without unions, we would have NEVER had many fringe benefits that we have today at our jobs. Are unions perfect? No. At least we have some standards to go by, unlike many other countries in this world that have none. We can get a decent wage, instead of pennies a day.

Our fringe benefits are not given to us by the "goodness of their hearts" by any company or state. I don't know about you, but I am glad that we have them or we would not have any benefits at our jobs. If you don't believe that unions have their place, I suggest you to work on "Labor Day", just to make a statement.

Think the problem and what this topic is concerning is with union greed which has been well displayed of late, and not with what unions had once established for their employees.

Believe it or not there are some good small businesses with good owners still out there too who do have the interest of their employees at heart.

[Gator]

The next time you complain about a union... think about this. Why do I have vacation time, sick leave, maternity leave, health insurance, paid holidays? The answer is "organized labor." A.K.A. as "unions".

Let us not forget, without unions, we would have NEVER had many fringe benefits that we have today at our jobs. Are unions perfect? No. At least we have some standards to go by, unlike many other countries in this world that have none. We can get a decent wage, instead of pennies a day.

Our fringe benefits are not given to us by the "goodness of their hearts" by any company or state. I don't know about you, but I am glad that we have them or we would not have any benefits at our jobs. If you don't believe that unions have their place, I suggest you to work on "Labor Day", just to make a statement.

Geez, I got all that and I don't work for a union:rolleyes:

[craig mack]

Geez, I got all that and I don't work for a union:rolleyes:

Do you think that you would have got it if there was no such thing as a union?

[wtnhunt]

Do you think that you would have got it if there was no such thing as a union?

Given history, think it would be rather difficult to speculate and really give an answer to that Craig. If you look at where some job markets are and the broad diversity of jobs both union and non union in this country, I guess in my opinion I would see that unions may have had little or no effect in some places where others it might possibly have had some effect on non union occupations.

[nativetexan]

Do you think that you would have got it if there was no such thing as a union?

Yep. He just said that he has it...without a union. My mother and father both have high paying jobs (which they worked their way up) and have never worked with a union and have all of the same bennies. My best friend earned his Masters in Sports Medicine, his wife-a nurse. Both of them have a great benefits package at their jobs. High pay, no union. My sisters, one a nurse, the other a receptionist. Great bennies, good pay, no union. I could go on. Nowadays, benefits packages "lure" people to work at companies. Unions are a thing of the past. Hyundai and Kia both use non-union labor here in the States and they give their employees the same benefits that were mentioned above.

You also have to take into account that when unions first became prevalent, working conditions were poor, people were paid squat, and were supervised by fear and long hours. Unions did help protect people from such things at that time. Now the law (OSHA, EPA, etc.) says working conditions must be a certain standard, and if companies don't simply offer some sort of benefits package then they know people won't work for them. So it is not smart nowadays NOT to offer a benefits package.

The American Auto Industry allowed its employees to take them down. Why, because the unions used the same tactics that companies did when the need for unions first arised. Fear. "Give us this, or we quit, all at once." That is the plain truth. How about all of those great union members that chastise those who are non-union when the non-union member wants nothing more than to keep collecting a paycheck and feeding his family? Don't tell me that doesn't happen. Great bunch of people union members...Most everyone I know goes a different route when they want more. Like getting more education, learning company policies, management, etc. If you want it, go get it. Unions nowadays are a bunch of people waiting on a handout. Sure did backfire this time, and now WE are paying for it.

[goodnottygy]

unions

It is me again... I don't belong to a union either. It seems many of you must think that I do. I just said that, Unions (A.K.A. organized labor) was responsible for the many job benefits that we now have. These companies do not give us benefits just because they are nice. Health insurance, paid holidays, sick leave, death leave, retirement, maternity leave, FMLA (Family Leave and Medical Act) which protects your job if you have a prolonged illness, overtime pay, healthy, safe working are the benefits for workers uniting for all of us. Again, I am not union, but without them, I think we could be just like any other 3rd world country, working at poverty wages for a dollar a day, and kids sent to work at sweatshops. If you don't think so , look at some other countries and see what they do. Unions are not perfect, but I am glad we have them.

[Tink]

You cannot py $48 an hour to build cars that will be purchased bya man making 410.00 an hour

math doesnt work.

I dont see the automakers coming out of this in one piece

Sad case both labor and Mgmt have to give equally

I see the overpaid GMC Engineers are paid the same as line assembly people????

[wtnhunt]

It is me again... I don't belong to a union either. It seems many of you must think that I do. I just said that, Unions (A.K.A. organized labor) was responsible for the many job benefits that we now have. These companies do not give us benefits just because they are nice. Health insurance, paid holidays, sick leave, death leave, retirement, maternity leave, FMLA (Family Leave and Medical Act) which protects your job if you have a prolonged illness, overtime pay, healthy, safe working are the benefits for workers uniting for all of us. Again, I am not union, but without them, I think we could be just like any other 3rd world country, working at poverty wages for a dollar a day, and kids sent to work at sweatshops. If you don't think so , look at some other countries and see what they do. Unions are not perfect, but I am glad we have them.

Good, bad, or otherwise; unions have had some sort of influence in some occupations or lines of work in history that led way to where they are today, do not think anyone can deny that, however I do not really think it safe to assume or speculate that there would be nothing but sweatshops and child labor in this country had there never been labor unions. I like to think the American people really do not compare to 3rd world country laborers, but again that is just my opinion.

[The_Kat]

As I've stated numerous times, I am union, and I'm pro union. Unions protect our jobs, they keep illegal aliens from taking american jobs, the benefits are top notch, and the pay scale works out great. But as I have said, not all unions are equal or the same, so don't judge one union as how they all operate.

Also, being pro union, I do see the UAW making a huge mistake. Theres a time to stand and unite, and theres a time to stand, unite, and think. It's your job/industry, or a AFFORDABLE paycut. I researched the 30$ decrease I thought was drastic a few weeks ago, and learned it isn't even their base pay ( what the see on their checks ) thats being cut, it's their training fund, very small deducation in pension, and they wanna cut the health and welfare fund down. After researching further, I found their health and welfare is the best health package of any company in the states, so they can afford to lose some ground.

[stevebeilgard]

Do you think that you would have got it if there was no such thing as a union?

yes, i do. wyoming has never had a union. they are allowed, of course, but are voted down every time. yet, the labor force here (mines, oil field, and more) are paying great wages, with excellent benefits and insurance packages, retirement and all, without unions. so do the southern states where the foreign cars are made (honda, suzuki, mercedes, volvo, nissan and more). and if you notice the bottom lines, they are all making profits, not suffering losses.

here's the real problem. the big 3 auto makers in detroit are losing money. in total, 98,000 workers reported for work daily. yet, their payroll was over 1 million. why? because those laid off got a check for 95%of their wages for staying home. the spouse of those who died get paid until they die.

the retired get their wages. and oh so much more. the newer foreign care makers purposely moved where there are no unions to avoid all that extra baggage. and folks, it is that baggage that killed detroit. and i'll not even touch the "quality of construction" issue;). by the way, i drive a chevy, but i do have to swallow deeply.

[Gator]

Geez, I got all that and I don't work for a union:rolleyes:

Do you think that you would have got it if there was no such thing as a union?

Um, Yes, seeing as I do have that without a union now. Unions may have had their place 50-60yrs ago, but like someone else said, not today, and definately not in the capacity some are. Now I know The Kat is in one, and it benefited him recently, but look how many times the UAW has gone on strike for more money and beenefits. Total BS CRAP is what that is. I am very thankful to have a job, and think its stupid to strike like that, it nothing more that mutiny basically.

[goodnottygy]

Remember me? I don't belong to a Union... and I know that a few of you thought that we could not be like a 3d world country... and we are not. However, remember when I said that we would have sweat shops with children working and poverty wages if it were not for Unions? I wanted to enlighten you of an article in the paper in fact, this happened. An kosher meatpacking company in northeast Iowa has been charged for 954 child labor violations in addition to 9000 more violations. I know that this may be an isolated case. There are good companies that are non union and union alike. But I think organized labor also helps all American workers from things such as this happen. I thank unions every day for what they have done for workers on their behalf, although they are not perfect by any means.

[TuffnufOutdoors]

I feel for anyone losing their job. I work as a Engineering Manager for a corporation that supplies parts to many auto manufacturers. I don't like my money going to support bad decisions by companies. People in our company are losing their jobs even the ones that support our Toyota plants. What I see out of our management they are taking time off across the board without pay to help keep some employed just a little bit longer. Sending people to help in the community and paying them for it. We are non union and I think they are thinking of our employees better then the Detroit 3. This is just not the union workers fault, those contracts where also agreed upon by the auto makers. Be careful to judge some need to look that even Toyota who is being talked about being so efficient had to take a loan from their government in their time. They just made the changes to get better after wards. We need to change as a whole but all this spending may not be the way.

[TBow]

The Union/Management Consultaion process, or UMC, is supposed to be a cooperative effort to improve both communication in the workplace and the security for all. It is supposed to improve working conditions, reduce harrassment, promote fairness and improve job security.

Too many unions (and I have been a Local Chief Shop Steward for over 17 years) and union members, see Labor and Management as opponents to one another. That mentality is OH so 50s and 60s! Confrontation is counterproductive in today's marketplace.

If the security of the workplace, and that can mean both from abuse and job security, is at risk, then both sides of the table must work cooperatively to improve things. If management is claiming hard times, then they'd better be prepared to open their books to the union if concessions are being asked. And the unions had better be prepared to consider concessions if it's the only way to manage job security.

Share in the goods times, share in the bad. And if union leaders (and management) are too stubborn to contemplate the thought that Labor and management are partners in todays fiscal mess, then it's time for the membership to vote in a new executive and for the CEOs to be fired.

Just IMHO!

TBow