fly Posted December 30, 2008 Report Share Posted December 30, 2008 I was filling out my fair chase affidavit and read the part that states no electronic equipment was used. I was going to use an Illuminock next year, but now I will not. I haven't asked Pope & Young, but I Googled it and found others stating the same. Anyone else know more about this? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
backwoods07 Posted December 30, 2008 Report Share Posted December 30, 2008 Pulled this of another forum. Apparently the guy contacted Lumenok... "Pope and Young has disallowed animals taken using our lighted arrow nocks. I have spoken to the president of the P&Y club recently and he assures me that this has been discussed and change could come in the future, but for now, no animals taken using our product will be allowed." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KirkV Posted December 30, 2008 Report Share Posted December 30, 2008 Wow was not aware of that, I am glad I have not used them! Although none of my pope and young deer have ever been actually registered. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fly Posted December 30, 2008 Author Report Share Posted December 30, 2008 Seems like an out dated rule. The main goal is to harvest the animal. I don't see a lighted knock giving the hunter an unfair advantage of shooting the animal, only helping with the harvest. What do you all think? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tominator Posted December 30, 2008 Report Share Posted December 30, 2008 That's weird. I can see where projecting a beam of light would be illegal, but don't see how a lighted nock would be considered unfair. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flintlock1776 Posted December 30, 2008 Report Share Posted December 30, 2008 I never had any luck with Luenok in my Carbon Express carbon arrows. They did not light many times; were hard to re-set after they went off and even stayed on the sting after the arrow flew off. Maybe they have to build in a fudge factor to be somewhat usable in a broad array of arrow shafts out there. For the cost, I've decided to not use them anymore. That will help if I ever see a P&Y in my neck of the woods! Also, whatever I get is a trophy in my mind I don't need some association that can't keep up with the times telling me different! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
backwoods07 Posted December 31, 2008 Report Share Posted December 31, 2008 Seems like an out dated rule. The main goal is to harvest the animal. I don't see a lighted knock giving the hunter an unfair advantage of shooting the animal, only helping with the harvest. What do you all think? I don't think the rule is so much outdated as it is P&Y saving themselves time and headaches. I'm sure the rule will be amended sometime in the near future as lighted nocks become more and more popular. The nock doesn't give the shooter an unfair advantage at all. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hoosierhunter Posted December 31, 2008 Report Share Posted December 31, 2008 I'm sure they will change this just like they changed the letoff rule from 65%. With technology moving forward they also have to adapt with the changes. If they are so concerned about it helping hunters why don't they just raise the inch limit higher???? Anyway yes I killed my first buck for P&Y this year and plan on entering him, but I don't plan on entering again unless I make B&C status for the next one..... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HUNTINGMAN Posted December 31, 2008 Report Share Posted December 31, 2008 I have never used the luminok but did think about it,I dont have to worry much about the P & Y thing in the area I hunt for there are no big deer there.I use all white fletching to help see the arrow fly but would like to be able to find those lost arrows from passthroughs or misses. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tink Posted December 31, 2008 Report Share Posted December 31, 2008 In Ill & Wisc where we hope to see P & Y Deer we did not carry tracer Nock arrow When shootign hogs or at our lease where we have lions hogs beer etc we carry soemof each they do help you find deer you have alredy shot they do not help you kill more or larger deer TINK Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
okiedog Posted December 31, 2008 Report Share Posted December 31, 2008 or at our lease where we have lions hogs beer etc Minus the lions... that sounds like my lease:D Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tominator Posted December 31, 2008 Report Share Posted December 31, 2008 When shootign hogs or at our lease where we have lions hogs beer etc we carry soemof each Minus the lions... that sounds like my lease:D Yeah, I'd like to shoot some beer too. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stryder Posted December 31, 2008 Report Share Posted December 31, 2008 I looked up the exact rule, and it states; "By the use of electronic devices for attracting, locating or pursuing game or guiding the hunter to such game, or by the use of a bow or arrow to which any electronic device is attached." I can see why they wont allow the nocks as-is, the way the rule is stated. However, I dont think simple lighted nocks were even thought of when this was written. I can see them being allowed in the future as there is no unfair advantage in using them. What gets me is the number of record bucks that are recognized even though the majority of them were unfairly tracked by trail cameras. To me this is a much bigger offense that seems to be widely accepted amoung hunters. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
elkoholic Posted January 1, 2009 Report Share Posted January 1, 2009 On this issue I will take the hard line and say that they should not change the rule as written. I also feel that the use of trail cameras to locate game for the purpose of hunting them should also disqualify the hunter from entering the animal taken from entry into the record book. My reasoning for these opinions lies in the idea that a hunter should be able to hunt/locate the animal, or animals travel patterns, by him/herself and possess the skills to recover the animal once the shot is taken. While the purpose of hunting to most of us is to regain (or for some, to maintain) that contact with the natural world, it appears that the use of products that further deteriorate our natural senses has become the norm. "Success at any cost" has eroded the true meaning of success. If you cheated in any phase of the hunt, well then, whether legal or not, you did not really succeed. Yes, I know all the excuses, but they are, after all, just excuses. Knowing that I will get chewed up on this one, let me add one more opinion. If your sole goal of hunting is to put one in the "book" then you are hunting for the wrong reason. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Illinois59 Posted January 1, 2009 Report Share Posted January 1, 2009 Knowing that I will get chewed up on this one, let me add one more opinion. If your sole goal of hunting is to put one in the "book" then you are hunting for the wrong reason. Amen. Forget the "book". Write your own book. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stryder Posted January 1, 2009 Report Share Posted January 1, 2009 I also feel that the use of trail cameras to locate game for the purpose of hunting them should also disqualify the hunter from entering the animal taken from entry into the record book. My reasoning for these opinions lies in the idea that a hunter should be able to hunt/locate the animal, or animals travel patterns, by him/herself and possess the skills to recover the animal once the shot is taken. I couldnt agree more! Using cameras is not hunting. Spending hours on the ground and in the trees watching your prey is hunting. If your sole goal of hunting is to put one in the "book" then you are hunting for the wrong reason. Same here. The deer I've hunted the hardest this year is actually a doe. She is the size of a small cow and is probably more elusive than most bucks I've hunted. If by some miracle I get the chance to make a shot, I'd be willing to be she would dress over 150lbs. Yeah I could use cameras to pattern her, but that would be cheating and defeat the definition of hunting! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tominator Posted January 1, 2009 Report Share Posted January 1, 2009 I looked up the exact rule, and it states; "By the use of electronic devices for attracting, locating or pursuing game or guiding the hunter to such game, or by the use of a bow or arrow to which any electronic device is attached." I can see why they wont allow the nocks as-is, the way the rule is stated. However, I dont think simple lighted nocks were even thought of when this was written. I can see them being allowed in the future as there is no unfair advantage in using them. OK, back on track here, ... Before the actual bulleted list of Fair Chase rules Pope and Young states: Simply defined, fair chase is the ethical, sportsmanlike, and lawful pursuit of free-ranging wild game animals in a manner which does not give the hunter an improper or unfair advantage over the animal. My argument with a lighted nock would be that it doesn't give the hunter an improper or unfair advantage over the animal. It's just designed to help the hunter find his or her arrow after the shot. Right? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wtnhunt Posted January 1, 2009 Report Share Posted January 1, 2009 My argument with a lighted nock would be that it doesn't give the hunter an improper or unfair advantage over the animal. It's just designed to help the hunter find his or her arrow after the shot. Right? That makes a lot of sense to me and I agree with it, not a luminock user either. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ruttinbuc Posted January 1, 2009 Report Share Posted January 1, 2009 Simply defined, fair chase is the ethical, sportsmanlike, and lawful pursuit of free-ranging wild game animals in a manner which does not give the hunter an improper or unfair advantage over the animal. Like anything else it is how one might interpret the rules. These words were written in a time when there were such things as ethics, sportsmanlike, fairness, and propriety. The laws in many states also have confused those words. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wtnhunt Posted January 1, 2009 Report Share Posted January 1, 2009 On this issue I will take the hard line and say that they should not change the rule as written. I also feel that the use of trail cameras to locate game for the purpose of hunting them should also disqualify the hunter from entering the animal taken from entry into the record book. My reasoning for these opinions lies in the idea that a hunter should be able to hunt/locate the animal, or animals travel patterns, by him/herself and possess the skills to recover the animal once the shot is taken. While the purpose of hunting to most of us is to regain (or for some, to maintain) that contact with the natural world, it appears that the use of products that further deteriorate our natural senses has become the norm. "Success at any cost" has eroded the true meaning of success. If you cheated in any phase of the hunt, well then, whether legal or not, you did not really succeed. Yes, I know all the excuses, but they are, after all, just excuses. Knowing that I will get chewed up on this one, let me add one more opinion. If your sole goal of hunting is to put one in the "book" then you are hunting for the wrong reason. It is really all a matter of opinion Dave. Don't think anyone will chew you over this, but some may simply disagree. Lot of things may seem fair or unfair to different people. Guess the way I see it, unless the arrow is still in the animal and the nock lighted leading a path to the deer for the hunter to find it, it really is not going to aid so much in finding the animal and since most bow setups nowadays will give complete pass throughs I would imagine that the lighted nocks probably are more often than not probably not as useful at finding the animal as it may seem. No doubt it helps finding the arrow, but so do arrow wraps. I simply see the nocks as another tool that may help the hunter, if it helps them find the arrow and they can determine the need to back out by the blood, what difference really is there in that and the hunter playing back what they recorded in the way of a shot from a camera, or is that yet another one of those technological advances that should not be used or should disqualify a deer from making the books? And what about arrow wraps that may stand out under certain lights, I mean if the deer has a nock that is showing up, would an arrow wrap that reflects light not also show up, what difference really is there other than the nock requiring the use of a battery versus the wrap reflecting, both may give an advantage but is it an unfair advantage? On trail/"scouting" cams, that is another topic all together and probably a pretty good one that could be debated/discussed in the deer room. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stryder Posted January 1, 2009 Report Share Posted January 1, 2009 OK, back on track here, ... My argument with a lighted nock would be that it doesn't give the hunter an improper or unfair advantage over the animal. It's just designed to help the hunter find his or her arrow after the shot. Right? Sorry, I guess I did sorta take the thread on a different tangent. I did agree that the rule should be changed to allow a lighted nock. I was simply trying to show that P&Y has bigger problems with the "use of electronic devices" than lighted nocks. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RangerClay Posted January 1, 2009 Report Share Posted January 1, 2009 My argument with a lighted nock would be that it doesn't give the hunter an improper or unfair advantage over the animal. It's just designed to help the hunter find his or her arrow after the shot. Right? That and to see where the arrow entered the animal. I have not killed a deer with my bow yet. But if there is a pass through, I want to know exactly where the arrow entered the deer. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fly Posted January 1, 2009 Author Report Share Posted January 1, 2009 William, I never thought of a cam corder as being a means of disqualifying a deer from the record books. I wonder what the pro's think of this. A good question for the pro-staff room. I'll post it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tink Posted January 1, 2009 Report Share Posted January 1, 2009 Pope & Young Rule illogical By the Same Standard the use of a Riscoby riser cam to capture the shot on film is also illegal see If I record a shot at a deer with my riscoby riser camera It will DQ my entry into Pople & Young Well it will still go into SCI Record Books & Roland Ward that now accepts North American game MEMO to Pope & Young Wake up It's camera time on TV Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VermontHunter Posted January 1, 2009 Report Share Posted January 1, 2009 The Rules of Fair Chase The term “Fair Chase” shall not include the taking of animals under the following conditions: Helpless in a trap, deep snow or water, or on ice. From any power vehicle or power boat. By “jacklighting” or shining at night. By the use of any tranquilizers or poisons. While inside escape-proof fenced enclosures. By the use of any power vehicle or power boats for herding or driving animals, including use of aircraft to land alongside or to communicate with or direct a hunter on the ground. By the use of electronic devices for attracting, locating or pursuing game or guiding the hunter to such game, or by the use of a bow or arrow to which any electronic device is attached. Any other condition considered by the Board of Directors as unacceptable. Now if I read this right, and use basic common sense, I think they are saying that the use of a Luminock would be considered an device for locating the game beyond the hunt itself .. Also, if I read and understood these rules correctly the use of a trail cam would disqualify your entry .. What really concerns me about the Fair Chase Rules is the very last one listed .... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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