fly Posted January 1, 2009 Report Share Posted January 1, 2009 In the bowhunting room we've been discussing the use of lighted nocks. Pope and Young will not allow animals harvested via electronic devices to be entered so lighted nocks mean no Pope and Young. I'm not sure how Pope and Young feels about trail cameras or video cameras. How do you all feel about this? I see the trail camera as as a device used to locate, but I'm not sure how a video recorder would be against the rule. Perhaps reviewing the tape would help one figure out where the hit was and if it should be pursued that night or the next? The rule states: "By the use of electronic devices for attracting, locating or pursuing game or guiding the hunter to such game, or by the use of a bow or arrow to which any electronic device is attached." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VermontHunter Posted January 1, 2009 Report Share Posted January 1, 2009 In my eye's the trail cam main use is to locate and track the movement of game ,, and if we read the rules of the fair chase it would disqualify your entry .. To me this electronic device is secondary and was NOT used for the kill and should be allowed. On the Video camera, I don't think it can locate your game in the sense of filming for a TV show, as for locating the game after the shot, it can't light up a direction of travel for the game by the use of electronics ... So I would say this would be alowed .. and IMHO should be .. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stevebeilgard Posted January 2, 2009 Report Share Posted January 2, 2009 i agree with luke. he's correct on both points. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wtnhunt Posted January 2, 2009 Report Share Posted January 2, 2009 Think the use of luminocks should be allowed as they really do not give any clear advantage other than finding your arrow which can let you know whether to go on and pursue your animal or wait a bit. Video cameras not attached to bows are allowed from what I understand, but those attached to bows are not. Kind of silly if you ask me. Kind of think the Pope and Young club needs to wake up and make some changes that will better explain. On trail cams, they are just another tool in my opinion to let you know what is or is not there. Of course in some places they can aid in patterning deer, other areas the deer may not have set patterns and the cams may only allow you to know that you have a certain caliber of deer which will let you know what to set your goals for. I will say this, with using trail cams for several years, I have noticed that older bucks tend not to often do the same things routinely. This year in particular the best deer we have seen has never been in the same place at the same time twice, at least not on our property. The Lakosky's as well as some others we watch on vids use trail cams and have giant areas to hunt in prime deer hunting country, is that unfair and should their deer be in any way ineligible because of their use of technology and their endless resources, I don't hardly think so. Sure I am a bit envious I will be the first to admit, would be nice to be able to have thousands of acres to manage and strategically place plots on too, but I really do not think that is unfair to the animal and do not think it should disqualify the animal from the books. jmh2cw. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gator Posted January 2, 2009 Report Share Posted January 2, 2009 Just cause you use a camera and see a big deer on doesn't mean that you're gonna kill it. You may NEVER see that deer during hunting ours Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stryder Posted January 2, 2009 Report Share Posted January 2, 2009 The rule states: "By the use of electronic devices for attracting, locating or pursuing game or guiding the hunter to such game, or by the use of a bow or arrow to which any electronic device is attached." Using a trail camera to "see what's out there" is still considered locating your prey. If you see that big buck on film, chances are your going to hunt for him. This goes against the fair chase statment. To me its not hard to locate the signs of big bucks on your own. Being in the right spot at the right time is the hard part. By using a trail cam, you have the unfair advantage of knowing what times it travels that area because of the time stamp. If you only see him once, how many of you add more cameras or move it until you see him consistently, then put a stand nearby? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wtnhunt Posted January 2, 2009 Report Share Posted January 2, 2009 Using a trail camera to "see what's out there" is still considered locating your prey. If you see that big buck on film, chances are your going to hunt for him. This goes against the fair chase statment. To me its not hard to locate the signs of big bucks on your own. Being in the right spot at the right time is the hard part. By using a trail cam, you have the unfair advantage of knowing what times it travels that area because of the time stamp. If you only see him once, how many of you add more cameras or move it until you see him consistently, then put a stand nearby? My stands pretty well go from my past experience of where I have known that deer travel. I hunt the same ground year after year, and I place scouting cameras in places where I already know that deer and other animals move through to get an idea what is coming through, if I know that the best deer I have gotten this year was a 3.5 year old buck then I know it is unrealistic to hold out for a 4.5 year old. Using trail cams can be a very fun hobby and a useful management tool, and I maintain that the use of cams is a tool that helps any hunter better have an idea of what is out there so that he or she may be more selective. Just because a hunter uses cams does not mean that he or she does not do their homework either. It is just my opinion, but think there is good reason Dr. Kroll and other successful deer managers promote the use of trail cams. The buck I killed last year managed to avoid 4 cameras placed around our property, but I did see him about 5 or 6 weeks prior to killing him. Just goes to show that just because you have cams out on well traveled trails or even at mineral stations does not necessarily mean you will have a pattern on a specific deer. And no I have not ever moved a stand to a camera site on the basis that I got a picture of a deer at that site. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
layin on the smackdown Posted January 2, 2009 Report Share Posted January 2, 2009 Regarding trail cams, i think alot of it depends on the time of year. Summer time the deer are typically more predictable and can be patterned to some extent. However, when the velvet falls, things tend to change substantially. Bucks become more nocternal, and as the rut closes in, they travel more and greater distances. I have pics of several deer that i have never seen before over a 4 year span. i have also seen several giant bucks that i have never got a photo of. I did manage to get a pic of the bruiser by my signiture when he was 3 1/2, and got him a year later on the other side of the farm. i think trail cams are just a tool that help familiarizing the hunter with the who, where and when of animals using the property they hunt. Regarding Lumenoks, i drilled that bruiser using a lumenok, and when i had him scored, i answered the question regarding electronic devices with a no...it never even crossed my mind that a lumenok is an electronic device, i mean i know that it is, but i thought the question was referring to electronic calls, feeders etc. In both situations, i feel very strongly that both trail cams and lighted knocks should be allowed in pope and young as they do not assist in the overall harvest of the animal. I think Pope and Young need to make a few ammendments and keep up with the times...jmho Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Anthony Posted January 2, 2009 Report Share Posted January 2, 2009 Well I have never been to the point to be able to check a box on a pope and young application YET!!!!! I like all the points and they are really valid. Using a video camera to me seems like something that wont up your odds. As far as seeing the impact and using that info to make your judgment on when to take up the trail, I would think that most hunters would follow the old rule "when in doubt back out" and find the deer the morning (if it was an evening hunt) On the use of trail cams, I would have to say that it does help put you in the areas where the big guys roam, but on my land that I hunt, I have big guys on my camera and never ever see them again. So I do think it is an aide, but in the sametime, you still need to fool the deer and make the shot. That is what makes hunting so CRAZY:eek:.......not screwing up when a big guy is in the area. I don't really know all the rules, but I do know that deer hunting and shooting any deer let alone, a big buck with a bow, is definately an amazing feat. If I am so fourtunate to down a MARSH MONSTER with my bow and I have my stand there because of a trail cam picture , and recover the deer because someone filmed it and I decided to let it lay for a night that, I would be able to be in the book, because I harvested it by fooling it. An electronic device didn't help calm down my heart that was beating through my chest or tell me when and where exactly to draw back my bow or where to place the shot or how to steady my bow and not peak around my string.......I made the shot out of dedication and practice and expierence. That is just my opinion........they are like noses , everyones got one!!! Good qustion and it really made me think about........great points made by everyone. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
m gardner Posted January 2, 2009 Report Share Posted January 2, 2009 How about the use of rangefinders? Mark Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
layin on the smackdown Posted January 2, 2009 Report Share Posted January 2, 2009 How about the use of rangefinders? Mark and another great point....Nice Mark Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
m gardner Posted January 2, 2009 Report Share Posted January 2, 2009 I really want to know. I've never entered an animal in any book but the next good deer I get is going in and I just started using a rangefinder because I missed the last two. mark Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VermontHunter Posted January 2, 2009 Report Share Posted January 2, 2009 I really want to know. I've never entered an animal in any book but the next good deer I get is going in and I just started using a rangefinder because I missed the last two. mark It would depend on they feel at the time .. Sorry Chris I just had to .. If I were you, and you are truely interested in having your animals' application considered for P&Y I would email or call and get an answer from the horses mouth .. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adjam5 Posted January 3, 2009 Report Share Posted January 3, 2009 Does the trail cam locate game for the hunter? OR does it just tell that certain deer have been in the area? Deer don't stay still. How many times are pics are gotten of a particular buck, and only to never see him again? Did it help? Maybe. BUT...you still have to make the shot. This is a good thread, I am enjoying reading all the responses. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GWSmith Posted January 3, 2009 Report Share Posted January 3, 2009 Does the trail cam locate game for the hunter? OR does it just tell that certain deer have been in the area? Deer don't stay still. How many times are pics are gotten of a particular buck, and only to never see him again? Did it help? Maybe. BUT...you still have to make the shot. This is a good thread, I am enjoying reading all the responses. I am too... Just want to throw this into the mix and see the responses: How many times on DVD or TV have you heard a hunter say "The Outfitter has seen a Big Buck on the trail cams he has in this area...so sit back and let see what happens"? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GWSmith Posted January 3, 2009 Report Share Posted January 3, 2009 ...Just want to throw this into the mix and see the responses ..or lack thereof:eek: Geeze you would have thought I threw an anchor into an old wooden boat or something! Sorry Flyerla did'nt mean to induce a flatline in your thread:o Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michihunter Posted January 3, 2009 Report Share Posted January 3, 2009 In my opinion, some of the criteria for P&Y entry is laughable. Letoff of 65% or 80% with an asterisk? No lighted pins? I wonder why there isn't something such as deer lures and cover scents, blinds, stands, or camo listed as non binding criteria. Seems to me that there are a few things allowed that are far more conducive to getting a deer than some of the non allowable things. In the end it boils down to this- If you want P&Y recognition, you have to play by their rules. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
okiedog Posted January 3, 2009 Report Share Posted January 3, 2009 In the end it boils down to this- If you want P&Y recognition, you have to play by their rules. That pretty much sums it up:) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
layin on the smackdown Posted January 3, 2009 Report Share Posted January 3, 2009 How many times on DVD or TV have you heard a hunter say "The Outfitter has seen a Big Buck on the trail cams he has in this area...so sit back and let see what happens"? i think i have heard Stan Potts say that on numerous occasions. Regardless, just because he was there once, especially in the rut, doesn't mean he will ever be in that same spot again...or even in the same county. In retrospect, however, if he was there once, there is always a chance that he may be back...thats why its hunting and not killing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
layin on the smackdown Posted January 3, 2009 Report Share Posted January 3, 2009 If you want P&Y recognition, you have to play by their rules. I guess it might also come down to this...do you want to recognize the class of the animal or yourself for taking that class of an animal? this may be getting a little deep, but i think its a valid question. Say the books didn't have your name, just the county and what it scored...would people still be so hard core about entering thier trophies? i'm guessing not- i think it may have, at some point, turned into an ego thing. I got mine officially scored, so i knew the official score, but i never entered him. hope this doesn't offend anyone... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GWSmith Posted January 3, 2009 Report Share Posted January 3, 2009 i think i have heard Stan Potts say that on numerous occasions. Regardless, just because he was there once, especially in the rut, doesn't mean he will ever be in that same spot again...or even in the same county. In retrospect, however, if he was there once, there is always a chance that he may be back...thats why its hunting and not killing. I agree with you..but my question was an attempt to see how people viewed it in the light of the rule below: The rule states: "By the use of electronic devices for attracting, locating or pursuing game or guiding the hunter to such game, or by the use of a bow or arrow to which any electronic device is attached". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
layin on the smackdown Posted January 3, 2009 Report Share Posted January 3, 2009 Sorry if i came off wrong Smith...didn't mean to. I can't see how a picture of a wild animal in its habitat can be seen or justified as guiding the hunter to the animal because it was there in the past. I would think that this applies more to electronic feeders...the camera just caught that animal in a specific area, could be passing through, feeding, going to or from feeding/bedding areas...I mean...great, ive gone and confused myself... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GWSmith Posted January 4, 2009 Report Share Posted January 4, 2009 Not a problem here:cool: I geuss what I'm asking is, how do the rules of the P&Y Club apply, in this type of a situation: The Outfitter has 10 trail cameras around his property. He's been seeing a Monster Buck on 3 of the cameras and none of the other ones. What 3 treestand areas do you think he is going to place the hunter in? I can bet it wont be the 7 that have nothing but dinks or does showing in the pic's. So is that considered by anyone to be "Locating or Guiding the Hunter to Game"? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VermontHunter Posted January 4, 2009 Report Share Posted January 4, 2009 Sure would be nice to have some one from the P&Y committee come and chat with us on some of these rules, and the conditions of these rules .... Wouldn't it ?? ... I for one, like many others in here believe that every animal is a trophy in the hunters eye's, but every now and then it's nice to be recognized by our peers .. Did that make any sense ?? .. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ruttinbuc Posted January 4, 2009 Report Share Posted January 4, 2009 It is all about the animal, but somehow this got lost in the hype of what bowhunting has become. You read on some of these forums where so and so will say HE has X number of Pope and Young deer to his credit and that he is this and this is how he did it and blah, blah, blah......Not one tribute to the deer themselves. In my opinion if the tools of today were available in Pope and Young's time the rules would read a whole lot different. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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