Debate time

[fly]

We've heard from Steve, wonder where Tim and Randy are?

Mark, I never thought about the use of a rangefinder. Good point. The electronic game ear would also be in question. I guess we could even go as far as to include the use of a flashlight for night recovery. It could get pretty rediculous.

I sent an e-mail to Pope and Young last year asking about how they calculate the gross score. They responded and stated there is no such thing as a gross score only a final net score according to their club.

I think I'll send another e-mail asking about the use of these electronic devices discussed here. I get back to you all with their response.

As far as being an ego thing...

Yea, I suppose for a lot of people it is.

I'll tell ya what though, after all the years of taking small deer and mounting the antlers on plaque's (every deer I've harvested is a trophy worthy of remembering to me) and being kidded by my relatives for harvesting small deer (they called it the wall of shame); it sure is nice to take them into my new "man room" and show off my P&Y hall of fame!

>Frank

Edited January 4, 2009 by fly

[randyoitker1]

Here are some answers to some of your Pope and Young questions:

In 2003, I was at the IL. deer classic and at that time i was using tracer nocks. Which has since been sold to easton. When I had a P&Y scorer come by my booth and was looking at the lighted nocks. He said do you know if these are p&y legal? I said I didnt know. They had a meeting during the show and determined that they were not p&y legal. The reason given was not only were they battery operated but they helped in the recovery of the animal, because you could see where the arrow hit. From that point on i did some research and found out and don't ask me why, but the only place lighted nocks are p&y legal is in Alaska. As far as using range finders, It is not p&y legal to use a range finder on the animal itself. Rangefinders, to be p&y legal are only used as a tool to range your surrounding area as a mental note. Lighted sights ,lighted pins are also not only ,not p&y legal, but in some states like Idaho, you can not have any kind of battery operated pin or light to illuminate your pins on your bow.Now some companies like trophy ridge makes a glow stick that you break and put in your sight to illuminate your pins.Which makes it legal because it is not battery operated.As far as game laws and p&y laws you can use a dog to find a downed deer but you cannot carry a weapon while you are using a dog.If you use a dog or a gamefinder you cannot enter it in the p&y record book. You can not enter an animal that is shot in deep snow or water in the p&y record book. There are many rules to p&y entry, not all that i agree with because some rules like the 80% letoff on bows has since been revised as legal to go in the record book with an asterick beside of it. Mike Betty, with the Betty buck, which was a world record bow kill went for years not being able to enter it in p&y because he had used an 80 % letoff bow. What i think was amazing about Mike Betty was that he was honest about the bow he used and how many people out there who wasn't. Some people ask me why don't I use a lighted nock and i tell them because it isn't p&y legal. Some people tell me they don't care about the record books anyway. I have got numerous p&y that were shot totally legal but I can say that I have only entered one in the record book. It is not that i don't believe in entering animals in the record book, it is just to me a trophy is in the eyes of the beholder. I have got

numerous mounts that won't make the record book but to me they are a trophy. I am curious , as to how many animals are put in the record books each year that didn't meet p&y standards. It is kind of like don't ask and don't tell because some of these rules such as lighted nocks and dogs to find animals are not asked about at the time of entry.I am sure

like the 80 % letoff rule p&y will revise some of these things in the future.

Randy

[Tim Andrus]

Im hear! missed this one earlier. This has thread has started quite a topic. Well, some of the rules are good , some are so so. I personally havent had any of my bucks officailly scored py/bc. two reasons 1) nets are for fishing and were hunting! meaning they go by net score. i feel if the buck grew it he and hunter should get credit for it.

2nd) if i had them scored , the net score would make them smaller(loL) and I dont want that.

All in all its a something that some people are in to , some not.

Some like the rules, some dont

Good debate topic sorry got in late!!

tim

[Tominator]

I guess it might also come down to this...do you want to recognize the class of the animal or yourself for taking that class of an animal?

this may be getting a little deep, but i think its a valid question. Say the books didn't have your name, just the county and what it scored...would people still be so hard core about entering thier trophies? i'm guessing not- i think it may have, at some point, turned into an ego thing.

I got mine officially scored, so i knew the official score, but i never entered him.

hope this doesn't offend anyone...

I agree with this. I have at least 2 deer that qualify for Pope, but neither of them is in, yet. Ohiobucks and I were talking about this yesterday. Personally, I want the recognition for BBBC but not Pope for some reason. Probably because BBBC requires 140" to qualify. Tom argued that Pope is more prestigious. Hmmm, OK, maybe so, but I want to wear my Gumby green jacket around him just to show him up so yes, it's an ego thing for me.

Here's a new question:

Do hunters hang a camera arbitrarily? I mean, do they just go out and stick it on the first tree or post they find? I doubt it. When I help Tom set his camera, we look for sign, trails, rubs, scrapes, etc. So, in that sense a hunter has the pre-knowledge that deer are in the area. The trail camera just lets you know which deer are in the area, and to my knowledge, a camera has never killed a deer.

[Tominator]

Good debate topic sorry got in late!!

tim

You're fired.

Oh wait, I can't do that.

Carry on.

[GWSmith]

I wonder why nobody has answered the question below?

Is it a Violation of P&Y Club rules or not...just asking for an opinion;)

I geuss what I'm asking is, how do the rules of the P&Y Club apply, in this type of a situation:

The Outfitter has 10 trail cameras around his property.

He's been seeing a Monster Buck on 3 of the cameras and none of the other ones. What 3 treestand areas do you think he is going to place the hunter in?

I can bet it wont be the 7 that have nothing but dinks or does showing in the pic's.

So is that considered by anyone to be "Locating or Guiding the Hunter to Game"?

[VermontHunter]

I wonder why nobody has answered the question below?

Is it a Violation of P&Y Club rules or not...just asking for an opinion;)

"By the (use) of (electronic) devices for attracting, (locating) or (pursuing) game or guiding the hunter to such game, or by the use of a bow or arrow to which any electronic device is attached".

Read the above rule and use some common sense, and the answer would have to be YES, this device would disqualify your application IMO, but then again it's their club and they can make exceptions to this rule as they see fit ..

In my opinion game camera's are used for more than just one purpose ,,, they help in locating game, pin pointing movement of said game, and lastly helps with the pursuit of said game.

With this said, I still hold to my conviction that this type of device is secondary to any kill. The hunter still has to be vigilant on stand day after day, and still has to make that fatal shot on the animal, which sounds far easier than it actually is.

It's like the OLD debate on baiting .. but that's for another thread ..

[fly]

Thanks for coimmenting Randy and Tim.

Hey Gary, I e-mailed the following questions to P&Y:

1. Would a animal be eligible for entry if a hunter was filming the hunt and reviewed the footage after the shot to determine if the animal should be pursued that evening/night, or the next day?

2. Would an animal be eligible for entry if a trail/game camera was used to locate the animal one or more days prior to the day of the hunt (not the day of the hunt)?

3. Would an animal be eligible for entry if a flashlight was used to locate an animal at night after it had been shot and killed?

4. Would an animal be eligible for entry if lighted knocks on arrows were used?

5. Would an animal be eligible for entry if a rangefinder was used on the animal prior to the shot? (Would it be eligible if only trees or other markers were ranged, not the animal?)

6. Would an animal be eligible if a game ear (such as Walker's game ear) were used?

7. Would an animal be eligible if a drive was being used and the drivers were communicating with the standers via telephone or walkie talkie?

I'll post their response when/if I get one.

[Adjam5]

Thanks for coimmenting Randy and Tim.

Hey Gary, I e-mailed the following questions to P&Y:

1. Would a animal be eligible for entry if a hunter was filming the hunt and reviewed the footage after the shot to determine if the animal should be pursued that evening/night, or the next day?

2. Would an animal be eligible for entry if a trail/game camera was used to locate the animal one or more days prior to the day of the hunt (not the day of the hunt)?

3. Would an animal be eligible for entry if a flashlight was used to locate an animal at night after it had been shot and killed?

4. Would an animal be eligible for entry if lighted knocks on arrows were used?

5. Would an animal be eligible for entry if a rangefinder was used on the animal prior to the shot? (Would it be eligible if only trees or other markers were ranged, not the animal?)

6. Would an animal be eligible if a game ear (such as Walker's game ear) were used?

7. Would an animal be eligible if a drive was being used and the drivers were communicating with the standers via telephone or walkie talkie?

I'll post their response when/if I get one.

Your gonna make someones head explode at P&Y:D

[VermontHunter]

Can't wait to hear what the answers will be for those questions ...

[GWSmith]

Thanks Fly....It makes no difference to me as far as the book goes, I just had that scenario popup in my mind, after reading through this thread. It seems to be something I've heard alot while watching videos and the question made sense after reading the rules that were posted.

If an Outfitter has a couple thousand acres, and you've never been there before, and he puts you in a few treestand areas near some trailcameras that have been getting big buck pics on them on a regular basis...sure sounds like locating game to me;)

[Tim Andrus]

You're fired.

Oh wait, I can't do that.

Carry on.

Watch out Ive got special mod powers, but like my computer not sure on how to use them:eek:

[Texan_Til_I_Die]

There's a lot I could say about P&Y rules (and B&C too, for that matter), and very little of it would be positive.

So to make a potentially lengthy rant very brief, let me just ask these questions.

Q. Who appointed those two organizations as keepers of the records?

A. Themselves

Q. If an animal was taken in a legal manner, why should they judge whether or not it is "fair chase?"

A. (I don't think there is a good answer)

[Rhino]

I honestly don't know where P&Y stands on their trail camera rule situation.

I do know that B&C changed their rules a couple of years ago addressing trail cameras. The rule was just a bit vague so I found out from the horses mouth that they were specifically talking about real time trail cameras and videos in the field and not those trail cameras we have to go out an pull cards, etc. from to download, or whatever to view pictures. B&C's new rule pertaining to these real time trail cameras and video cameras made sense to me then. Their point was a guy could sit at his computer and wait for a big one to come by the camera on his back 40 in real time and then head out to cut the deer off. I can see their point.

Now with that said...I can't say what P&Y's interpretation is of their trail camera rule. I just haven't asked them. I've only entered one buck in P&Y and B&C. Even though I have another one that would make P&Y I'm not going to bother entering another buck in P&Y unless it qualifies for both clubs again and that would be to pay tribute to a deer that size, not me.

[GWSmith]

Rhino, That makes perfect sense to me. In the way you described it IMHO there would be very little difference from that computer shooting of an animal garbage that cropped up a short time ago. Realtime Video telling you where and what direction a buck is traveling would "Guide a hunter to Game".

Is it the same thing, or very close to it, when an Outfitter lets you know what deer has been frequenting a certain area based on (standard memory card) trail camera information?

You've never been on the property before and he's telling you dont waste your time in treestands 1-8 but spend your time rotating between stands 9-12 because "Thats where the Big Buck has been spending his time".

[layin on the smackdown]

Is it the same thing, or very close to it, when an Outfitter lets you know what deer has been frequenting a certain area based on (standard memory card) trail camera information?

You've never been on the property before and he's telling you dont waste your time in treestands 1-8 but spend your time rotating between stands 9-12 because "Thats where the Big Buck has been spending his time".

I agree with both of you on the real time crap...that is definitely "guiding to the animal". If thats all people have time to do is sit around and watch their computer and wait for an animal to show up just so they can kill it, they shouldn't even spend the money on a license...they are not hunting - they are pretty much killing...and not just the animal, but the entire sport of hunting.

regarding the ladder half above, i feel that it isn't guiding, but more or less, increasing the odds of seeing a specific animal. there is still an element of suprise, because you do not know for a fact that he will show up, and or when he will show up. I almost feel like it is scouting from afar...you can sit in your truck and watch an area from a distance night after night, and if you consistently see an animal using that area, or a specific part of that area, your goona sit there, right? all the camera is doing is taking out your leg work...to an extent. just my opinion.

[fly]

The answers are in!

Here are the responses I received from Pope & Young:

Pope and Young,

I'm a member of the Team Realtree Forums. Several members (including myself) were dabating some issues regarding the fair chaise affidavit and the rules for eligibility. If you could answer these 7 questions I would be most appreciative. I will then post your response on the RT forums for others to review.

1. Would an animal be eligible for entry if a hunter was filming the hunt and

reviewed the footage after the shot to determine if the animal should be pursued that evening/night, or the next day?

It would be eligible as long as the camera was not attached to the bow

2. Would an animal be eligible for entry if a trail/game camera was used to locate the animal one or more days prior to the day of the hunt (not the day of the hunt)?

It would be eligible as long as the trail camera did not transmit the photo electronically, ie. you had to go out to the trail camera to retrieve the photo

3. Would an animal be eligible for entry if a flashlight was used to locate an animal at night after it had been shot and killed?

No problem on using a light to find the animal.

4. Would an animal be eligible for entry if lighted knocks on arrows were used

No, it would not be eligible if there is a battery installed in the arrow

Rule 7 states "by the use of a bow or arrow to which any electronic devise

is attached".

5. Would an animal be eligible for entry if a rangefinder was used on the animal prior to the shot? (Would it be eligible if only trees or other markers were ranged, not the animal?)

No problem if the rangefinder is not attached to the bow.

6. Would an animal be eligible if a game ear (such as Walker's game ear) were used?

No problem on accepting an animal.

7. Would an animal be eligible if a drive was being used and the drivers were communicating with the standers via telephone or walkie talkie?

If the communication was "it is a nice day" - no problem. If the communication was "GET READY THE DEER ARE COMING" the animal would NOT be eligible.

Edited January 6, 2009 by fly

[okiedog]

Would an animal be eligible if a drive was being used and the drivers were communicating with the standers via telephone or walkie talkie?

If the communication was "it is a nice day" - no problem. If thecommunication was "GET READY THE DEER ARE COMING" the animal would NOT be eligible.

CODES CODES.... its all about CODES lol:D:D

[fly]

Would an animal be eligible if a drive was being used and the drivers were communicating with the standers via telephone or walkie talkie?

If the communication was "it is a nice day" - no problem. If thecommunication was "GET READY THE DEER ARE COMING" the animal would NOT be eligible.

CODES CODES.... its all about CODES lol:D:D

That's a great point. Ok from now on when I say "it is a nice day" what I really mean is "GET READY THE DEER ARE COMING!":D:D:D

[Adjam5]

Pretty straight forward answers there.

Reasonable answers to reasonable questions.

The lighted nock thing. Its electronic yeah..., but it did not help you make the shot. The hunter still has to do that.

Thanks for sharing the responses from P&Y.

[layin on the smackdown]

wow....way to go to the horses mouth my friend...

still can't believe the whole lumenok thing...oh well, i'm still usin em...whatever i take is still making my book.

well done.

[Rhino]

Is it the same thing, or very close to it, when an Outfitter lets you know what deer has been frequenting a certain area based on (standard memory card) trail camera information?

You've never been on the property before and he's telling you dont waste your time in treestands 1-8 but spend your time rotating between stands 9-12 because "Thats where the Big Buck has been spending his time".

I sure wouldn't say so Gary. There's no guarantee that animal will ever show up again by one of those stands during legal shooting hours. One 8 point I finally killed last year was caught on camera in 3 different areas that were as far as 1 1/2 miles apart. Heck I had over 300 trail camera pictures of a 10 point down here between July 1st and Oct. 1st and once bow season started he never moved during daylight hours while I was trying to bowhunt him. I finally got a quick glimpse of him on the morning of Dec. 27th but no shot opportunity in an area I had cameras on this year but he never stepped in front of one there. My best friend killed him this past Friday afternoon cruising through the same general area I kept tabs on him this past summer.

Fact is, at least down here you never know when one will show up during daylight hours if you caught him on a trail camera or just found his rubs that were the size of your leg. All you really know is he's living somewhere around there.

One more thing...when I was hunting IL this past October our guide had us hunting an area (every other day to keep it fresh) where he had seen (not photoed) a 140 class 9 point buck. On the 4th afternoon I killed a 140 class 9 point bowhunting that area. When the guide showed up and we were all standing around my buck he said that wasn't the one he'd seen. He said he hadn't and nobody he knew there had ever seen that buck before. The one he saw had a light colored rack, not the dark colored old warrior I killed. You just never know all the bucks using an area no matter what you use to scout with.

Thanks for posting the P&Y responses to your questions flyerla. I figured they would take the same position on trail cameras as B&C.

Edited January 6, 2009 by Rhino

[Tink]

Nocks

The gizmo that hooksthe a rrow is called a nock

not a notch

Not a knock

FYI

[fly]

The gizmo that hooksthe a rrow is called a nock

not a notch

Not a knock

FYI

In all my years I never would have expected to have my grammar corrected by the maker of Tink's 69!

Thanks Tink.

[Ohiobucks]

I agree with this. I have at least 2 deer that qualify for Pope, but neither of them is in, yet. Ohiobucks and I were talking about this yesterday. Personally, I want the recognition for BBBC but not Pope for some reason. Probably because BBBC requires 140" to qualify. Tom argued that Pope is more prestigious. Hmmm, OK, maybe so, but I want to wear my Gumby green jacket around him just to show him up so yes, it's an ego thing for me.

But you can take that 140" animal with bow, crossbow, gun, muzzleloader, truck, etc......

P&Y is for archery only, and then there is some requirements you have to meet after that. P&Y = more prestigious. BBBC = really nice bucks, and a green jacket with your bucks score embroidered into the breast. Pretty tacky.....but that's just me.

To me, a 125" deer shot with archery tackle is more impressive than a 140" deer shot with a muzzleloader at 150 yards. A 140" deer shot with archery tackle is pretty impressive as well though....